10 Devastator Squad with a Razorback

[Brother Ben]

This is my first post on the forum, so first off I'd like to say hi.

 

Hi.

 

I don't know if this is the right place to post this topic, I figured it's a tactica but since I'm doing Flesh Tearers and our points costs are different that I posted it here. So anyhow, I was browsing different forums and reading different tactic ideas for Devastators, and I came up with an idea I hadn't seen yet, or at least I haven't seen it discussed. If you took a 10 Man Devastator Squad with whatever heavy weapons you wanted, have a 5 Man Squad with the heavy weapons and the other 5 Man Squad with the Razorback. The heavy weapons squad would sit in the back field firing a way and the Razorback Squad could help support another part of the battle field.

 

I was thinking something along the lines of:

 

10 Man Devastator Squad

w/ 4 Missile Launchers

Razorback w/ TL Heavy Flamers (or TL Heavy Bolters)

 

Comes in at 265 Points

 

OR

 

10 Man Devastator Squad

w/ 2 Lascannons

Razorback w/ TL Heavy Flamers (or TL Heavy Bolters)

 

Comes in at 275 Points

 

Tactics wise I was thinking you could stick the heavy weapons in the back field and let them do there thing, and use the Razorback Squad to help support a Mech Assault Squad before they charged or to speed bump outflanking units trying to get at your back field squishes. As far as the Sergeant goes, you could put him in with the heavy weapons for the BS increase or for a few more points give him a Combi-Bolter and throw him in the Razorback Squad.

 

Well this is what I was thinking. I haven't seen this idea up on any forums so I figured I'd throw it out there.

 

Thoughts, Comments?

 

-Brother Ben

[Malatox]

It's a good tactic, one I've seen used before but with Assault Cannons. I wouldn't spam this however, I'd only do this if I had left over points.

It works well in conjunction with MSU Assault squads and thier Razorbacks.

 

Malatox

 

Oh and Welcome to B+C :D!

*sorry for the double post, I just forgot to say welcome

[Zhukov]

Welcome!

 

 

This tactic isn't really efficient I'm afraid. Look:

 

5 Devastators; 4 missiles. 130 points.

5 ASM; TL-HF Razorback. 120 points.

 

That's 250 points compared to your 265, they're troops, Sergeants in both squads and you can buy yourselves a special weapon for the ASM.

 

So unless you ran out of troop slots, I see little merrit in this. Well you could argue that you really want the Bolters which the ASM don't have :cuss

[Morollan]

Only benefit of 10-man for the devs is ablative wounds but if you're combat squadding them that does't work so I'd agree with Zhukov.

[Slyfox1990]

Doesn't really make sense to me. I might choose to run 6-7 man dev squads for the extra wound allocation/survivability but beyond that why bother?

Much better to take those other 5 men as tactical marines and give options for bigger combat squads with special weapons or just a small squad of ASM or w.e. Cost wise etc it doesn't make sense to me

[Brother Ben]

First off, thanks for all the replies.

 

 

@Malatox

It works well in conjunction with MSU Assault squads and thier Razorbacks.

 

This was definitely one way I thought use them. Assault Squads don't have much bite in the Shooting phase, other then perhaps a meltagun. I figured the extra 10 or 15 S4 attacks would be welcome, depending on whether you rapid fire or bolt pistol and charge.

 

 

@Zhukov

This tactic isn't really efficient I'm afraid. Look:

 

5 Devastators; 4 missiles. 130 points.

5 ASM; TL-HF Razorback. 120 points.

 

I think you may have missed the point slightly Zhukov. A lot of tactics I have seen in 40k are based around supporting your troops had heavy hitters. My purposed tactic as it were is making a Devastator Squad even more supportive.

 

10 Man Devastator Squad breaks down into 2 5 Man squads.

 

5 Man Devastator Squad w/ 4 Missile Launchers (130 Points)

5 Man Devastator Squad w/ TL Heavy Flamer (or TL Heavy Bolter) Razorback (135 Points)

5 Man Assault Squad w/ Meltagun, Power Weapon, and TL Lascannon Razorback (180 Points)

 

Now the Devastator Squad is not only supporting the battle field as it normally would, spreading Missile Launcher love to enemies of the Emperor. It is also supporting another squad, with out taking up a troops slot.

 

Imagine, Missiles crack open a Rhino, Razorbacks and Devastators open fire, Assault Squad assaults.

 

Alternatively, TL Lascannon pops Rhino, Missiles and the Devastators with there Razorback open fire, Assault squad assaults.

 

For 135 points more, your looking at supporting and Assault Squad to help ensure victory (Dice Gods depending). Your not taking a valuable Troop slot to support a Troop slot. And on top of the proposed scenario above, this is only one tactical option for this Razorback Devastator Squad. So this unit also has some versatility to it, which is gold in 5th edition.

 

 

@Morollan

Only benefit of 10-man for the devs is ablative wounds but if you're combat squadding them that does't work so I'd agree with Zhukov.

 

Devastator and "ablative wound" models seems to be like the cookie cutter way of Devastators. Using 5 Space Marines as ablative wounds is throwing away 80 points. Yes your Devastator Squad might survive another turn or two of shooting. However, throw in those few extra points and that 5 Man squad is now exponentially better. Instead of standing around and waiting to die, they can Move, Shoot, Assault, Support, Delay, Distract, etc.

 

 

@slyfox.uk

Much better to take those other 5 men as tactical marines and give options for bigger combat squads with special weapons or just a small squad of ASM or w.e. Cost wise etc it doesn't make sense to me

 

First, a 5 Man Tactical Squad is only better in that you gain a Sergeant. I am upgrading a existing unit, this means that: 1) I'm not taking a Force Organization Slot. 2) It's cheaper to upgrade then to buy a new unit.

 

5 Man Devastator Squad w/ TL Heavy Flamer (135 Points)

5 Man Tactical Squad w/ TL Heavy Flamer (145 Points)

 

3) A Tactical Squad can't take a Special Weapon unless "the squad numbers ten models,".

As far as the making them Assault Space Marines, you are losing the intended role. Troops shouldn't support Troops. Yes, you can have multiple Troop units work together, but they should be supported by Support Units.

Which do you think is better?

 

Razorback Assault Marine Squad supported by Missile Devastators

or

Razorback Assault Marine Squad backed up with Razorback Devastator Combat Squad supported by Missile Devastators

 

Alternatively, if you and to include more Assault Marines:

 

2 Razorback Assault Marine Squads supported by Missile Devastators

or

2 Razorback Assault Marine Squads backed up with Razorback Devastator Combat Squad supported by Missile Devastators.

 

In my opinion, that extra 135 points of "back up" pays for itself. It adds more rounds down range, more attacks in assault, it could speed bump a unit so you assault them instead of being assaulted. You can leave your Troop on an objective while 1) They tie up a unit for a turn that is trying to take your objective last turn. 2) They do a last turn dash to contest another objective. At first it does seem like a point sink, but if you think about the flexibility that is added to your army as a whole. Then the points seem to be worth it.

 

Thoughts, Comments?

 

-Brother Ben

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I actually have a list for 10man Devastators. I enjoy them very much, I play for fun and fluff wise instead of what points is written, so many will flak me becuase of this, but I enjoy the game as it is, just a game. The devastators have split armies down the line because the opponent has to figure out if he/she wants to try to get into assault quickly or attempt to get to the devastators.

 

My favorite to see is a crossfire lane with my 2 groups of 10 and if someone is trying to assault or get to one, the other puts fire on them. I don't run all rockets, mine are mixed, 2 HB, 1 Lascannon, 1 plasma cannon, sgt, x5 bolters. the other would be 1 HB, 2 plasma, 1 rocket, sgt, x5 bolters.

 

It is just fun in general aspect. My transports are just rolling TL:HB to get troops shot a bit to get to my spot to either drop or pop smoke.

[Brother Ben]

@Sgt. Tiberus Satio

My favorite to see is a crossfire lane with my 2 groups of 10

 

Do you combat squad your Devastators, or do you use your 5 Bolter Marines as ablative wound models?

[Morollan]

Which do you think is better?

 

Razorback Assault Marine Squad supported by Missile Devastators

or

Razorback Assault Marine Squad backed up with Razorback Devastator Combat Squad supported by Missile Devastators

 

Alternatively, if you and to include more Assault Marines:

 

2 Razorback Assault Marine Squads supported by Missile Devastators

or

2 Razorback Assault Marine Squads backed up with Razorback Devastator Combat Squad supported by Missile Devastators.

 

In my opinion, that extra 135 points of "back up" pays for itself. It adds more rounds down range, more attacks in assault, it could speed bump a unit so you assault them instead of being assaulted. You can leave your Troop on an objective while 1) They tie up a unit for a turn that is trying to take your objective last turn. 2) They do a last turn dash to contest another objective. At first it does seem like a point sink, but if you think about the flexibility that is added to your army as a whole. Then the points seem to be worth it.

 

In both cases, the second option is of course better because you're spending more points on it. The issue however is that you can spend those points better on a second assault squad. So the real comparison is:

 

2 Razorback Assault Marine Squads supported by Missile Devastators

or

1 Razorback Assault Marine Squad backed up with Razorback Devastator Combat Squad supported by Missile Devastators.

 

And in this case, option 1 is better as there are two scoring units and only 10 points more. Few people are concerned about using up Troops slots as there are plenty of those to go around.

[ulllyssies0110]

I see the merit of every one's point. So here is my two cent's. If you have at least 3-4 troop slots filled than try it out. I my self play more of a hybrid list than the standard DOA or Mech list. But I also have around 6k of Blood Angles to chose from.

[AbusePuppy]

You're paying 16pts/body and getting... nothing special out of it. All your "good stuff" is tied up in the other squad (with the Missiles/etc), so you have five vanilla guys. You know what no one except maybe Tau is afraid of? Five vanilla guys. They aren't scoring, so the opponent has no particular incentive to kill them. They don't carry any special weapons, so they aren't going to affect the battlefield much. Unlike ASM, they're only one attack each. What do they do well? Nothing, really.

 

Now, if you're playing a 4500pt game with one Force Org? Okay, sure, I guess, go ahead and splurge to get a bunch more bodies. But otherwise you have very good options in every single slot; there's no need to waste points on a mediocre unit that doesn't do any job well just because you have the ability to buy them. ASM are scoring and good in a fight (compared to most things) and can bring a special weapon or two. Tacticals are scoring, and have flexible loadouts with options for many different guns at a discount. Scouts are scoring and can add long-range fire support from a backfield point on the cheap. Sternguard, Vanguard, Sanguine Guard, etc, all have specialized roles that they perform well at. Devastators likewise have a role- fire support. If you are bringing Devs that aren't fire support (i.e. the "forward" half of your plan), you are spending your points poorly.

 

There are uses for 10man Dev squads- in larger games, it can buy you survivability, especially if you have a Priest in range. Moreover, Combat Squads can let you split into two units to fire at different targets, etc, which can be very handy. Buying a Razorback can also be useful for them, as it can provide shelter, add to an armored assault, be fire support of its own, etc. I think you've taken the wrong tack in trying to combine these two options, as they don't really work together in the way you're using them.

[JMac]

I'm gonna jump in here:

Brother Ben, your points are valid. No one is arguing that what you are proposing is a terrible idea. However, for the points and for the game as it is now, there are simply better options. Scoring units in 5th Ed are invaluable. In 4th Ed, this tactic could have been seriously consider seeing as everyone counted as scoring.

 

And again, who is to say 5 bolters is a better support role than 16 close combat attacks from that other assault squad?

 

Personally, if one is going the devastators route, I would take the 5 man Devs, and with the extra 130 take another 5 man Devs. Now I have 10 missiles supporting my 5 man assault squad unit.

 

I say this to everyone on here. Tactics will be argued to one's death. Perfect example is one arguing the inclusion of a Storm Raven in a DoA list. Some swear by it, while others curse the idea up and down. Leads my to this point, if the idea sounds good to you and works for you, use it! I can't remember whose sig it is, but it says something like this, "My army may not be conventional or typical, but it works for me and I win with it. Thats what matters." I really butchered it, but it's around here somewhere.

[Brother Ben]

@AbusePuppy

Five vanilla guys. They aren't scoring, so the opponent has no particular incentive to kill them.

 

Your right in all respects. However, what would you rather lose; five vanilla guys, or your decked out scoring unit? This is one tactical "option" with this unit, Devastators and Assault Marines roll up onto a Rhino. Shooting has failed to pop it, so you assault it with the Assault Marines. The Devastators, being vanilla, probably would destroy the tank. Depending on how you Assault Squad is decked out, you either pop it with a Power Fist or a Melta bomb. Now your "vanilla marines" can assault the unit inside the Rhino to prevent them from assaulting your Assault Marines. Those 5 Marines hold that unit til next turn, when you charge with your Assault Squad. Obviously this is situational, but 5 "vanilla marines" in a Razorback have the adaptability to fit in many "Situational Circumstances".

 

If the opponent doesn't shoot at them, then run them to the back field and attack units in cover... The fact that they aren't scoring makes them expendable. Why throw a scoring unit at something to die when you can send an expendable unit, and then clean up shop with your scoring unit.

 

 

@JMac

Tactics will be argued to one's death.

 

I couldn't agree with you more JMac. I was just merely throwing out an idea that I haven't seen yet. Obviously there are different, better, and worse options in other peoples opinions.

 

 

 

I want to thank everyone that has replied to my Topic. I know that this isn't the worlds best tactic that will win you every game. I had the thought circling in my head for the last couple days, and I wanted to throw it out there.

[Morticon]

I really like this idea, though Id take it a step further and if i was playing the support role, id actually play it hard by giving the Sarge a fist/pweapon.

 

The only issue there however, is the Ld8 and the loss of BS5 for a ML at back line.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

@Sgt. Tiberus Satio

My favorite to see is a crossfire lane with my 2 groups of 10

 

Do you combat squad your Devastators, or do you use your 5 Bolter Marines as ablative wound models?

 

 

I've played both, just would depend on which style I want as far as aggressive, then combat squads (as listed above it adds more things to the table); if I want shooting then 10man. I enjoy both styles, but that's in my preference.

 

I would also recommend is perhaps creating a sidebar for points of this nature so you can have the option of switching in between games depending on mood and flavor you want to go with on the table.

[Bartali]

Put me in the don't get it club.

 

5 ASM with Meltagun in TL-HF Razor = 130pts

5 Bolter Devs in TL-HF Razor = 135pts

 

Unless you've filled all your Troops slots I can't ever see why you'd take the Bolter Devs.

[SevenExxes]

I can see how this would work if someone was overly keen on having heavy weapons on the field, especially lascannons, without taking dakka preds or a Stormraven.

 

However, I've never been a big fan of the Flamerback and with the 35 points drop for footslogging Assault Teams this basically gives a Razorback las/plas or TL Assault cannon for free which I prefer.

 

Thanks for sharing these tactics. In any case, they will be helpful for the future.

[billga]

Used to run something similar long, long time ago. I split it into two, 5 man combat squads with two missile launchers each and left the Lascannon razorback empty. It effectively gave me three twin-linked anti-tank weapons that could all fire at separate targets out of one FoC slot.

-just my 2 cents

[AbusePuppy]

Your right in all respects. However, what would you rather lose; five vanilla guys, or your decked out scoring unit?

 

Well, my "decked out" scoring unit is both cheaper and more effective at any given job than the Devs, so that questions doesn't really even make a lot of sense. The point you seem to be missing is not that 16pt Marines are horrible and worthless, it's that there are better things you can do with those points. If you want a shooty support squad that can hang around with your ASM and provide some backup firepower/assault? Buy Tactical Marines, they're strictly better than what you're proposing. If you just want some cheap bodies in a Razor? Buy Assault Marines, they've got everything your proposed unit does and more.

 

This is one tactical "option" with this unit, Devastators and Assault Marines roll up onto a Rhino. Shooting has failed to pop it, so you assault it with the Assault Marines. The Devastators, being vanilla, probably would destroy the tank. Depending on how you Assault Squad is decked out, you either pop it with a Power Fist or a Melta bomb. Now your "vanilla marines" can assault the unit inside the Rhino to prevent them from assaulting your Assault Marines. Those 5 Marines hold that unit til next turn, when you charge with your Assault Squad. Obviously this is situational, but 5 "vanilla marines" in a Razorback have the adaptability to fit in many "Situational Circumstances".

 

That isn't legal. You declare all assaults and move units, then resolve them. The unit inside the transport is not on the board to be declared as a charge target.

 

And again, you're going with the same mistaken thought of "I'm getting this bonus thing so it's good!" They aren't free. You paid points for them when you could've bought something else instead. Opportunity cost is a very important part of building an army. Are your six troop slots full? If not, there is absolutely no reason to take the Devs.

 

If the opponent doesn't shoot at them, then run them to the back field and attack units in cover... The fact that they aren't scoring makes them expendable. Why throw a scoring unit at something to die when you can send an expendable unit, and then clean up shop with your scoring unit.

 

But you're paying less for the scoring unit that you are for the Devs. Lacking scoring is a disadvantage, not an advantage; that's like saying "All of this unit's guns are bad, so you can Run with it to move faster!" That's not an advantage, it's an option available to everyone, except that your unit, lacking any other options, defaults to that one. The Tacticals/ASM you would be using in their place would be just as expendable, cheaper, and more effective and would have other roles as well- they could score a point if that's what you needed, or win a CC fight, or shoot, or what have you.

[JMac]

abusepuppy coming on strong! just point after point of strongly disagreeing. I understand that many may not agree with this tactic, but lets take it down a notch. it is his first thread after all, and we dont want to give him the wrong impression of how we act here at B&C.

[Brother Ben]

@Morticon

The only issue there however, is the Ld8 and the loss of BS5 for a ML at back line.

 

Yes, Ld8 does hurt a little. I had been contemplating using Captain Tycho which would eliminate this problem. As far as the BS5, I think this wouldn't be too much of a loss. If math serves me right its only 16% increase for a Krak Missile and a 1 inch deviation for Frag Missile.

 

 

@Bartali

Unless you've filled all your Troops slots I can't ever see why you'd take the Bolter Devs.

 

For the sack of discussion, I am assuming that all Troop slots are taken. I'm looking at doing Death Company (in a Rhino or Razorback), Death Company Dreadnought, Scouts, and 3 Assault Marine Squads (in Razorbacks).

 

 

@SevenExxes

I can see how this would work if someone was overly keen on having heavy weapons on the field, especially lascannons, without taking dakka preds or a Stormraven.

 

I have chosen to do Flesh Tearers, so I am trying to keep it a little fluffy.

 

 

@billga

Used to run something similar long, long time ago. I split it into two, 5 man combat squads with two missile launchers each and left the Lascannon razorback empty.

 

That is definitely a good idea that I hadn't thought of.

 

 

@AbusePuppy

If you want a shooty support squad that can hang around with your ASM and provide some backup firepower/assault? Buy Tactical Marines, they're strictly better than what you're proposing. If you just want some cheap bodies in a Razor? Buy Assault Marines, they've got everything your proposed unit does and more.

 

I apologize for not writing "assume all six Troop slots are taken". Of course there are better things, but like I said before this isn't an "OMG I win tactic". As far as buying Tactical Marines, how is a 5 Man Tactical Squad better then a 5 Man Devastator Combat Squad at around 135 Points?

 

5 Man Devastators w/ TL Heavy Flamer (or TL Heavy Bolter) 135 Points

5 Man Tactical Squad w/ TL Heavy Flamer (or TL Heavy Bolter) 145 Points

 

Taking Morticon's suggestion of putting the Devastator Squad Sergeant in with the Razorback combat squad, buying a Tactical Squad is not better "point for point". You could upgrade the Sergeant with a Combi-Bolter in both units. You can't take any special weapons with either unit. Devastators don't get them, and a Tactical Squad needs to "number ten" models. If your going to buy the full Tactical Squad then that would defeat the point of this topic.

 

That isn't legal. You declare all assaults and move units, then resolve them.

 

I apologize again, I had forgotten about declaring assaults first. Obviously that "option" wouldn't work.

 

But you're paying less for the scoring unit that you are for the Devs. Lacking scoring is a disadvantage, not an advantage; that's like saying "All of this unit's guns are bad, so you can Run with it to move faster!" That's not an advantage, it's an option available to everyone, except that your unit, lacking any other options, defaults to that one. The Tacticals/ASM you would be using in their place would be just as expendable, cheaper, and more effective and would have other roles as well- they could score a point if that's what you needed, or win a CC fight, or shoot, or what have you.

 

I'm having a hard time with this one, but that could just be that fact that it is late.

 

"paying less for the scoring unit" We have 3 scoring units. Tactical, Assault, and Scout. I have already disproved that a Tactical Squad cost less, it in fact costs 10 points more. Scouts can't take a dedicated transport so they are out. That leaves Assault Squads.

 

First I would like to say, yes an Assault Squad can support an Assault Squad to a degree. A close combat unit that is supporting a close combat unit will excel at close combat. They will still be weak at shooting, just not as weak. 8 Bolt Pistol shots and 2 Meltagun shots is definitely not going to be "OMG game winning Shooting Phase". 10 rapid fire Bolter shots 4 Bolt Pistol shots and 1 Meltagun shot is however, in my opinion, a better Shooting Phase. I may be wrong in this assumption, but a typical 5 Man Assault Squad consists of a Meltagun, a Power Fist, and a Lascannon/ TL Plasmagun Razorback. That comes in at 190 Points, that is 55 Points more then my Devastator Combat Squad.

 

AbusePuppy, you make valid points. Yes there is better, but are there any that is as versatile? If I wanted to support my Assault Marine Squad with a great shooting unit the I could do "vanilla" Sternguard in a Razorback for 180 points. Now you have lost some adaptability in your army. For example, billga pointed out a great tactic by combat squading the Devastators as units with 2 Missile Launchers each and an empty Razorback to increase the possible number of targets to shoot at. You can't do that if your run Sternguard or another Assault Squad instead of the Devastators.

 

 

Its late, and I think I have rambled on for long enough. If something I wrote doesn't make sense let me know and I will rewrite or reiterate the point I was trying to make.

 

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

 

-Brother Ben

[Bartali]

abusepuppy coming on strong! just point after point of strongly disagreeing. I understand that many may not agree with this tactic, but lets take it down a notch. it is his first thread after all, and we dont want to give him the wrong impression of how we act here at B&C.

 

Can't see a problem with what Abuse Puppy is saying ? Just looks like discussion in a forum to me.

[Morollan]

Given that we're now assuming all Troop slots have been used and, presumably, all other slots too (or else, why are we thinking of buying 5 extra bodies rather than a pred, vindi, whirlwind, Baal, attack bike squad, land speeders etc, etc) then this option is clearly of very limited use. In a more normal game, I think the points raised by various people (Abusepuppy, myself, Zhukov and others) would apply.

[JMac]

abusepuppy coming on strong! just point after point of strongly disagreeing. I understand that many may not agree with this tactic, but lets take it down a notch. it is his first thread after all, and we dont want to give him the wrong impression of how we act here at B&C.

 

Can't see a problem with what Abuse Puppy is saying ? Just looks like discussion in a forum to me.

 

Maybe I took it wrong, but it seemed so. My apologies in advance.

[AbusePuppy]

@AbusePuppy

I apologize for not writing "assume all six Troop slots are taken". Of course there are better things, but like I said before this isn't an "OMG I win tactic". As far as buying Tactical Marines, how is a 5 Man Tactical Squad better then a 5 Man Devastator Combat Squad at around 135 Points?

 

5 Man Devastators w/ TL Heavy Flamer (or TL Heavy Bolter) 135 Points

5 Man Tactical Squad w/ TL Heavy Flamer (or TL Heavy Bolter) 145 Points

 

That does change the argument somewhat, because for one, your selection of Scouts is working against your stated intent of overwhelming the enemy with armored targets. If you want to achieve that, the first thing to do would be to drop the Scouts, not to pay for some Devs.

 

That aside, the Tacticals are better because they are Ld9 (the Devs are Ld8 unless you choose to give up the utility of the sarge's Signum in the HW half); they also would have the option of bringing a special weapon with them (assuming you had a 10man and split them, which is the normal way of fielding Tacticals in a Razorback) and are scoring, which is a fairly big deal.

 

Taking Morticon's suggestion of putting the Devastator Squad Sergeant in with the Razorback combat squad, buying a Tactical Squad is not better "point for point". You could upgrade the Sergeant with a Combi-Bolter in both units. You can't take any special weapons with either unit. Devastators don't get them, and a Tactical Squad needs to "number ten" models. If your going to buy the full Tactical Squad then that would defeat the point of this topic.

 

But you are losing BS5 here, which is non-ignorable.

 

(I'm not sure I understand why buying a 10man Tactical would "defeat the point" of the tactic, would you care to explain?)

 

 

 

"paying less for the scoring unit" We have 3 scoring units. Tactical, Assault, and Scout. I have already disproved that a Tactical Squad cost less, it in fact costs 10 points more. Scouts can't take a dedicated transport so they are out. That leaves Assault Squads.

 

First I would like to say, yes an Assault Squad can support an Assault Squad to a degree. A close combat unit that is supporting a close combat unit will excel at close combat. They will still be weak at shooting, just not as weak. 8 Bolt Pistol shots and 2 Meltagun shots is definitely not going to be "OMG game winning Shooting Phase". 10 rapid fire Bolter shots 4 Bolt Pistol shots and 1 Meltagun shot is however, in my opinion, a better Shooting Phase. I may be wrong in this assumption, but a typical 5 Man Assault Squad consists of a Meltagun, a Power Fist, and a Lascannon/ TL Plasmagun Razorback. That comes in at 190 Points, that is 55 Points more then my Devastator Combat Squad.

 

You're sort of making a lot of assumptions that don't fit here. An ASM squad with TL Flamer Razorback is 120pts. That's 15pts cheaper than the Dev squad chunk. If you're pushing them forward, they certainly don't need a LasPlasBack. It's also a bit unfair to factor in the cost of other upgrades (special weapon, Fist, Razor upgrade) to the ASM and not to the Devs; whatever "suite" of options you aim for, you can apply them to both units and they will increase their respective costs the same, but the ASM are cheaper at the outset, so they will always be ahead in that sense.

 

I would usually want 4 BP + Meltagun over 10 Bolter shots, because anything the Bolters can kill, the Heavy Flamer can also kill and you can likewise kill in close combat. Adding the special weapon gives you more flexibility in targets and expands your army's ability to deal with armor and monstrous creatures, whereas additional Bolters are... not generally needed. Not unwelcome, but also not something you should be going out of your way to get.

 

AbusePuppy, you make valid points. Yes there is better, but are there any that is as versatile? If I wanted to support my Assault Marine Squad with a great shooting unit the I could do "vanilla" Sternguard in a Razorback for 180 points. Now you have lost some adaptability in your army. For example, billga pointed out a great tactic by combat squading the Devastators as units with 2 Missile Launchers each and an empty Razorback to increase the possible number of targets to shoot at. You can't do that if your run Sternguard or another Assault Squad instead of the Devastators.

 

 

To clarify, it's not that taking the Devs is horrific and crippling, it's just sub-par. The BA codex is filled with lots of good units in every slot, unlike many of the older books. If you were building a CSM army, sure, having the ability to drop an extra transport and 5man team in would be somewhat useful. But with BA having access to Honor Guard, Sternguard, Vanguard, Land Speeders, Baal Preds, and Predators, saturation of armored units (or units in transports) is widely available from other slots. The only time I can imagine it would be relevant is if you have already filled all those other slots, which ends up being a pretty incredible number of points and thus something I don't really consider worth worrying about, since games are virtually never played at those sort of values without also being Apocalypse, where Force Org is not a consideration.

 

Maybe I took it wrong, but it seemed so. My apologies in advance.

 

It's understandable, I know I do sometimes come off a bit harshly; it's not really intended, but it tends to come from my style of argument. Apologies if anyone took it that way.