10 Devastator Squad with a Razorback

[Brother_Byhlli]

I want to get involved in this because it's been an interesting read. Actually, I'm not entirely sure how it's gone on for so long as a discussion.

 

Brother Ben, firstly, welcome to the forum. Good to have someone else on here who's willing to write out posts as long as mine and who is willing to respond promptly to replies.

 

Sadly, however, having welcomed you, I'm immediately going to side against you.

 

:P

 

There are a number of spurious arguments you've made I want to bring up:

 

... what would you rather lose; five vanilla guys, or your decked out scoring unit? ... If the opponent doesn't shoot at them, then run them to the back field and attack units in cover... The fact that they aren't scoring makes them expendable. Why throw a scoring unit at something to die when you can send an expendable unit, and then clean up shop with your scoring unit.

 

This line of thinking is not only wrong but possibly dangerous for your success ratio! There are a number of problems with what you're arguing:

1. We aren't talking about a decked-out scoring unit. We're talking about a scoring unit that is cheaper than your Devastators. And is scoring. Do not underestimate how important that is.
   
2. No models or units in a Space Marine army are expendable. I have found myself outnumbered on occasion by five or six models to one in my games and envisage being outnumbered even more in the future. We are an elite, compact army. Not only in fluff terms, but purely in gaming terms, every single part of your army should be focused on doing something and doing it very well. You should be aiming for specificity for your units and synergy between your units.
   
3. I haven't yet thrown a unit at anything "to die". I support my units sufficiently to give them at the very least a fighting chance of winning.
   
4. Crucially, this doesn't have to be an "either or" discussion in terms of scoring or non-scoring units. You can select two scoring units and support one with the other.
   

 

... buying a Tactical Squad is not better "point for point".

 

Yes it is. For ten extra points, you have:

 

1. A unit which is scoring
   
2. An additional sergeant
   
3. A BS5 shot from your Devastators every turn
   
4. An extremely minor increase in flexibility (due to the option to take a teleport homer and also an additional dedicated transport, should you have the points kicking about)
   

Definitely worth it.

 

 

8 Bolt Pistol shots and 2 Meltagun shots is definitely not going to be "OMG game winning Shooting Phase". 10 rapid fire Bolter shots 4 Bolt Pistol shots and 1 Meltagun shot is however, in my opinion, a better Shooting Phase.

 

I actually disagree. In my experience, shooting is generally never a game-winning phase. I have experimented with tanks, Tactical Squads and Devastator Squads and have come back time and time again to Assault Squads. Granted, of your two shooting phases the increased weight of fire from the boltguns will statistically cause more wounds against almost all Imperial Guard, Eldar, Orks and even Space Marines. However, your six additional bolter shots come at the cost of sixteen close-combat attacks. In absolutely every case, the additional close-combat attacks carry wounds in favour of the Assault Squads.

 

Additionally, you're forgetting that meltaguns can shoot tanks. You talk about increasing flexibility? Well, my scoring, combat-oriented Assault Squad is also capable of killing elite infantry, light transports and heavy tanks. You say yourself that vanilla Space Marines are unlikely even to pop a light transport, never mind a Land Raider.

 

So, not only is the Assault Squad cheaper, but additionally to increasing the power of the Devastator Squad by keeping the Sergeant's signum with his squad, it causes more wounds in every situation where they'd actually choose to disembark, scores objectives and can kill light and heavy tanks.

 

 

... you make valid points. Yes there is better, but are there any that is as versatile?

 

Yes. See my comments above.

 

 

... for example, billga pointed out a great tactic by combat squading the Devastators as units with 2 Missile Launchers each and an empty Razorback to increase the possible number of targets to shoot at. You can't do that if your run Sternguard or another Assault Squad instead of the Devastators.

 

Why not? Your ten Devastators plus Razorback costs you 265 points. A five-man Devastator Squad with four missile launchers plus an Assault Squad with meltagun and a Razorback costs 260 points. Not only am I able to target the same number of units, I've increased your damage output by the sum of four bolt pistols, a meltagun and sixteen close-combat attacks. And I've done it while saving you five points and giving an additional scoring unit. Admittedly you lose five bolters from the Devastator Squad, but if you're using the missile launchers you're probably not going to miss the bolters for whatever you're shooting at, due to range or target toughness/armour value.

 

 

As far as the BS5, I think this wouldn't be too much of a loss. If math serves me right its only 16% increase for a Krak Missile and a 1 inch deviation for Frag Missile.

 

If I ever find myself forced to take Devastator Squads with my Blood Angels, I tend towards three missile launchers and one lascannon. A lascannon that hits on a 2+ is very valuable and not to be sniffed at. 16% is rather a large difference if you consider it's to the outcome of one phase of your turn, every turn for the duration of a game.

 

 

For the sack of discussion, I am assuming that all Troop slots are taken.

 

This completely changes the landscape of the discussion. If you want to assume all Troops choices are taken, then we start having to look at different options. However, regardless of whether your Troops choices are taken, the arguments you've been making are, in my opinion, largely wrong.

 

If we're talking about Troops slots being full in the Force Organisation Chart, we need more information on the options available: have you filled up all the HQ, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices? If so, max out your last Devastator Squad and give it a dedicated transport. But if you have slots in any of those options available, I'd suggest your 135 points are better spent on a Librarian, Furioso Dreadnought, Baal Predator or additional Devastator Squad respectively.

 

You came in looking for honest feedback, so that's what I've aimed to give. I agree that it's a new tactic that I haven't seen and I absolutely do not suggest that if you employ it, you will automatically lose the game. I do think that you have better ways of spending your points to achieve the same result, however.

 

So far as tactics for Devastator Squads are concerned, two have been mentioned by other members and I gave you one myself (which is essentially a variation on billga's):

 

1. Instead of buying five extra Space Marines and a Razorback, buy a second five-man Devastator Squad with four missile launchers. [JMac]
   
2. If you're buying five extra Space Marines and a Razorback, combat-squad them into two five-man units, both of which contain heavy weapons. Leave the Razorback empty to give you a third option for targeting enemy units. [billga]
   
3. If you're buying five extra Space Marines to combat squad them, take advantage of your Sergeant's signum to give a lascannon a 2+ hit on a target of your choice. Three missile launchers in the other combat squad are enough to ruin anyone's day! [Mine! :P]
   

Hopefully this is helpful. What would actually be of greater help to us is seeing your whole army list. Oftentimes, a unit which seems out of place on paper actually fits well as a part of an army list. Let us see the rest of your army and we can better judge how it balances!

 

To close, once again welcome to the forum! I'm genuinely looking forward to reading more posts. Keep up the great start to board contributions!

 

:)

 

--BB

[Brother Ben]

First things first, thanks for all the replies. A lot of thoughts and comments have been posted. I was a little taken back at first by all the counter arguments, but after a second read threw I really picked up on all the advise and alternative suggestions given.

 

@Brother_Byhlli

 

You really helped to summarize the discussion up for me, and for that thank you. I would like to show you the same respect with a proper reply but as you implied, or as I have inferred. I think this discussion is at it's end. One thing I will say is that I do like your Lascannon and Missile Launcher combo. It is something I had not thought of, or seen in any forums.

 

Thanks again for all the replies.