Twin LC vs TH and SS

[Vexicus]

Hail Brothers,

 

In you opnions what is better for assault Deathwing, 2x LC or TH and SS?

[brennus]

Personal preference. I really like using two or three lightning claw terminators in an assault squad (the remaining terminators use hammers).

 

If you're thinking competitively, then I'd say it depends on what army you are facing. If your opponent will generally have a higher initiative, then I think you might as well use lots of hammers. If you'll have higher initiative, then lots of claws work well. That's a generalization, of course.

[Darkest Angel]

It's a safe bet to run at least 1 pair of claws in a unit, i run 4 hammers and a claw and it works well.

[Azurious]

The lovely thing about deathwing is that we can include both in the same squad ^^ Personally I run 2 LC guys and 3 TH/ss guys but really its all down to personal preference, I like the LC models and have never really regretted only having 3 storm shields so for me the 2/3 setup works a treat ^^

[ellis_esquire]

Im with Azurious - 3 THSS to get there - 2 LC to ensure murder. ;)

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Here's an overly long and detailed description for why I take 3x TH/SS and 2 TLC

 

In a case where there are power weapons (multiples) in the squad, it is unlikely that the LCs would be able to stop them from swinging. Against units like command squads, Howling Banshees, SM Veteran Squads, or genestealers (rending), the LCs will not deny them attacks, and will be much weaker on the defense against their attacks. Against a squad where it's just a hidden powerfist, even if we were to include 3 LCs and be fighting against WS3 models, average wounds is 6 against T4, 7 against T3. So that squad would need to be pretty small already to stop the power fist from attacking. So we want more TH/SS so that we can more easily survive the retaliation.

 

LCs are beastly, but the defensive boost of the SS is too much to justify more than two pairs.

[Vexicus]

My Brothers, thank you for your imput. I decided to go with 5 pairs of LC in this squad and am going to get another squat and give them 5 TH and SS. I couldn't decide so this is the only way i can comprimise

[Kaika87]

Why can't you mix and match them? I agree with the above that 3 TH/SS and 2 LC is the ideal loadout. Either way, taking a squad of 5 Lightning Claw Deathwing is a bad plan. At the very least, you need one TH/SS to soak invuln saves, or else power weapons and AP 2 guns will slaughter the squad.

[Darkest Angel]

I have to agree 5 and 5 is a bad move, the lightning claw squad will get torn apart by ap 1 and 2 weapons.

[shabbadoo]

Why can't you mix and match them? I agree with the above that 3 TH/SS and 2 LC is the ideal loadout. Either way, taking a squad of 5 Lightning Claw Deathwing is a bad plan. At the very least, you need one TH/SS to soak invuln saves, or else power weapons and AP 2 guns will slaughter the squad.

Let alone running into a Walker with AV 11 that is then invulnerable to lightning claws and so will slowly but surely kill/tarpit the squad. Even an AV 10 Wlker is a nuisance to such a unit, as it can only be Wrecked/Destroyed by stripping it down to nothing. A single 40-ish point Killa Kan/Sentinel will make that 200+ point LC Terminator squad a waste of space, so don't set the unit up for the epic fail. Definitely throw 2 TH & SS models in the unit. Three isn't needed, but some like to favor protection and the slow but mighty blow. To each his own.

[timmytool]

reasons/fails for each termi option

 

2LC extra attacks close combat monster re-roll wound and +1A, low survivability from shooting and higher initiative power weapons - without differently equipped temi's will get tar-pitted by walkers

 

SS & TH high survivability from any threat shooting and powered CC (SS) also good verse independent characters/tanks/T5monsterous creatures (TH), at I1 all the opponents will hit it first in CC so mobs shred it via lots of 2+ saves

 

basic Sergeant can do initiative power attacks and ranged shots, does not do anything particularly well (2LC will out initiative combat it with re-roll wound and +1A, 2 average shoots aren't particularly great)

 

powerfist/stormbolter average CC and does shoot, not as good CC as TH/SS( read worse invol save and the powerfist attacks are missing the extra anti IC/tank/multi-wound ability)

 

chainfist upgrade, CC anti-tank god, cost and can only be paired with a stormbolter and or a heavy weapon upgrade

 

heavy weapon upgrades

, CML can be pared with any combo(minus Sergeant) anti tank or anti mob 2 shots good range, cost

, assault cannon, anti infantry also good verse landraiders 4 shots, less effective verse lower armored tanks(10-13) then CML also its range is half that of the CML at 50% more cost

, heavy flammer, anti mob low cost, lowest range target might fall back out of assault range

 

While this is quite a superficial analysis their is quite a range of roles our DW can fill, but ultimately most bases must be covered by one squad as we have very few squads on the field.

 

There are 2 main roles fire support(infantry/tank) and combat, and each can be covered inside one squad to varying degrees.

 

how I personally set up most of my squads

, Sergeant - 2LC , 2 TH/SS 2 PF/SB one of which has a CML and chainfist points permitting.

, while the TH/SS guy might have a better save, while walking the model they will be taking all the AP1-2 shoots so statistically are more likely to perish so loading it with the HW would result in a reduced investment.

, wound allocation had me put the CML on one of the TH/SS so all models are unique, but I still think the above works better even if the 2 TH/SS roll together.

, the squad can handle mobs tanks IC walkers the only true weakness is the inability to take mass saves (usually rapid fire) but that is made up for using tactics/generalship.

If their in a landraider I drop all the stormbolters(+1TH/SS & +1 2LC) but keep the CML, but this is also usually my Belial command sq(as 2 LR's is costly in anything smaller then 2k+) so I use the standard and apothecary to differentiate for wound allocation.

[march10k]

The way the question is phrased, I gather that the complex squad is now officially dead? And only heavy weapons, LCs, and TH/SS are viable?

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

The way the question is phrased, I gather that the complex squad is now officially dead? And only heavy weapons, LCs, and TH/SS are viable?

Depends on who you ask. Lots of people will propose footslogging squads of 5x TH/SS with a CML. I don't agree in the slightest. I find that list slow, boring, and ineffective against horde armies.

 

My basic (non-assault optimized) squad still looks like this:

Sergeant with PW and SB

SB+PF+CML

SB+CF

2x TH/SS

 

Because it's a shooting squad, it will always be hugging cover, meaning having only two TH/SS terminators won't hurt me that much, and I still get 6 Storm Bolter shots against infantry squads (invaluable against Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Guardsmen).

[march10k]

Hmmm....since I find it impossible to get by without RW-guided DWA and/or land raiders, "slowness" isn't an issue for me, since I'm either deploying in the enemy's deployment zone or arriving there on turn two...either way, at least some of my squads are assaulting the enemy's "fort living room" on turn two...I like TH/SS-heavy for DWA squads, since they need to survive a metric butt-ton of shooting before moving out, and I like TLC-heavy for mounted squads....I'm also a bit concerned with the sudden love affair with (updated) CMLs...I still like HF for mounted squads, since range isn't an issue, and it help alleviate our shortage of horde control options, and I'm torn between CML and AC for DWA squads...for footsloggers, I'm all aboard with CML, though! I also don't see too many people pushing the 1+ CF/squad thing...that seems like a no-brainer to me...Even for TH/SS afficionados, it seems like {heavy weapon}/CF, TLC, 3xTH/SS would be the norm...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I also don't see too many people pushing the 1+ CF/squad thing...that seems like a no-brainer to me...Even for TH/SS afficionados, it seems like {heavy weapon}/CF, TLC, 3xTH/SS would be the norm...

 

I am with you on the CF side of things. You are practically going from a krak missile to a melta, with that extra d6 for pen. :)

Whilst s8 will smash 95% of the vehicles out there, with their feeble av10, running into Land Raiders or Walkers makes the CF look like a good deal to me.

[Kaika87]

The way the question is phrased, I gather that the complex squad is now officially dead? And only heavy weapons, LCs, and TH/SS are viable?

 

Hell no. I run four DW squads on foot and they all do pretty damn well. However, I do think mixed squads need some more "pure-squad" support.

 

Squad 1 is all TH/SS, with a TH/SS Belial attached, upgraded with Apothecary, Banner, and CML. This is the big fire-soaker unit. Oh it hits hard too, but people get scared of it, and it can take a beating.

Squad 2 is 3 TH/SS, one LC, and one LC/CML. Designed to run near Squad 1. They support each other in a good way, one of them providing counter-charge cover for the other and making both into a massive threat. They can operate independently if need be, but generally I don't like to split my forces that much. The CML is on a lightning claw because the TH/SS are the first to soak invuln saves.

Squad 3 is 1 PS/SB, 1 SB/CF, 1 AssaultCannon/PF, 2 TH/SS. People like to hate on the Assault Cannon, and maybe I am better off with a CML, but I couldn't pass up that awesome DA-decorated assault cannon. And the squad has done me pretty damn well, having some good midrange support. 2 TH/SS and the Power Sword sergeant give the Assault Cannon some good cover against taking wounds.

Squad 4 is 1 PS/SB, 1 SB/CF, 1 SB/PF/CML, 2 TH/SS. Same as above, only more backfield-oriented. If there's an objective close to my table edge that I want to hold, this squad goes there. And anyone thinking they're easy kills can be quickly reminded that it's still a squad of Terminators. I had this squad get charged by a Furioso dropped by a Stormraven. The chainfist carved up the dread and then ripped open the Stormraven next turn. Glorious times.

 

 

All of these setups I highly recommend.

[Tanhausen]

My standard DW loadout:

 

Sarge, with power weapon and storm bolter. Fuction: ablative wound, Ini 4 attack, a bit of pew pew

TH/SS CML. Function: long range firepower and the SS for a 3++ in case I have to assign a tough wound.

TDA with CF/SB. Function: prevents being tarpitted by dreads, allows felxibility to assault LRs and similar or resist shocks.

LC. Function: second ablative wound, Ini 4 attacks, not something I can rely on but it has given me a few nice surprises.

TH/SS. Function: provide "destructive" attacks... if he survives :P

 

I find that the unit is basically a hammenator (3 S8 guys, albeit only 6 attacks, 9 if charging) with some swarm options.

 

Also, you'd be surprised how many wounds the sarge and LC deliver to T6 guys...even 1 wound per round is usually of great help!

[Brother Kovash]

The beauty of the Deathwing army is that you don't have to get stuck using the same setup in every squad. I started out with 3 shooting squads, and have now started to pick up assault squads to mix and match with my other units. Based on who you're up against, you can field all different kinds of combinations.

 

However, if you're planning on a straight up assault squad, then I suggest 3xTLC and 2xTH/SS. Include the DW banner for extra attacks. When I can I try to keep another squad close by, to either kite my enemy around and set up a counter charge, or to charge in first and then have the CC squad follow up the next turn. Terminators can usually survive a turn of combat against anything except a horde, so don't be afraid draw your enemy to you.

[pueriexdeus]

I run two basic setups.

 

1) 2x TH/SS, TLC, CF, CML or AssCannon, PF/SB

2) TH/SS, 3x TLC, HF/PF

 

Unit one is my basic DS/Footsloggers.

 

Unit two are the LR assaulters.

 

Works for me.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The reason that I wouldn't worry about mixing the weapons is that the massed attacks that tear apart hammernators will also tear apart lightning claw terminators. The only difference is that you might kill a few before you go down. Close combat terminators are not really suited to fighting hordes. Tactical terminators with cyclones and storm bolters are better for hordes, killing them before they get close enough to pose a threat.

[timmytool]

The reason that I wouldn't worry about mixing the weapons is that the massed attacks that tear apart hammernators will also tear apart lightning claw terminators. The only difference is that you might kill a few before you go down. Close combat terminators are not really suited to fighting hordes. Tactical terminators with cyclones and storm bolters are better for hordes, killing them before they get close enough to pose a threat.

 

In the end if you have 3 termi foots sloggers sq's 1-2 are shooting units, what units are the hoards going maneuver to get cover from and then charge, if all your foot sloggers are the same then your opponent cant gain tactical advantage from the difference.

 

Also mixing assault weapons(TH/SS,TLC) and shooting models means vs hoards you fall back shoot till you cant fall back no more then you assault, vs shooting armies you run/shoot and charge asap. You can also priorities your armour/invol saves to remove your chaff for that match up, vs hoard that's about to assault you with low/no power weapons well that second TH/SS might not serve as well as the TLC model and so on.

 

most tournament games rely on diversity to handle any army, without mixing models inside each squad this ability is diminished.

[Droma]

Actually if you do the math on TH vs LC even with the difference in attack the LC's are going to be doing on average less wounds against T4 models. And because T4 models and roughly half of T3 models are going at the same time or before even LC termies I think entirely TH/SH is the better option. For hordes you really have to rely on sitting back, castling up, and just pounding them with frag missiles till the squads are small enough for you to take out. Or if you can't avoid it try and get the charge with at least 2 units.

[imperious]

Um, you might want to recheck that math. Lightning claws do an average of 1.5 wounds on the charge and 1.13 wounds not charging. Thunder hammers do 1.25 wounds charging, then .83 wounds not charging.

 

Of course, the most important reason to take some lightning claws in a death wing unit is they look damn cool!

[Azrael Turnbull]

I agree with Droma, unless toughness 3 or less, LC don't inflict as many wounds as Thunder Hammers.

 

Thunder Hammers and Storm Shield are the best CC wargear for Terminators ever since they improved them to a 3+ inv in close combat and shooting for no additional cost. I still disagree with the rule writers for this decision, as I think a 4+ inv save in CC was equal to the task. But hey, it's there to be taken advantage of. (And now we can point and laugh at the Space Wolves, who are the only marine army who can't have this wargear for as cheap 40 points a model; 43 if you're a Dark Angel).

 

So what, Thunder Hammers aren't as good against horde armies as Lightning Claws. As Droma said, that is why we have Cyclone Missiles; the bane of light infantry.

 

You can not get a more efficient jack of all trades unit. :P

[Droma]

DW termie melee math

 

LC

3 attacks

(assuming vs ws4 and t4)

3 x .5 = 1.5 hits

1.5 x .5 = .75 wounds

.75 x .5 = .375 re-rolled wounds

.375+.75= 1.25 total wounds

 

Th

2 attacks

(assuming vs ws4 and t4)

2x .5 = 1 hits

1x .83 = .83 wounds

 

Hmmm..... Where the hell did I get my old math. Oh well I do think the extra survivability of th/sh in the current meta offsets the wound difference by a large margin as in my experience th/sh survive to get into combat where claw squads normally don't. I also think combat favors th/sh squads in any situation that goes multiple rounds for the same reason. I'm also not sure how often you guys are getting into melee with a squad before you get into melee with that squads vehicle but once again against mech heavy lists I think TH/SH wins out. I just don't see enough horde/infantry lists to make fielding LC's worth it.