How well does al deep strike force work

[Grizwald714]

I'm am restarting my grey knight army since I sold my old one. But I was thinking of running an army with 2 10 man squads with 2 psycannons and a dh also and 2 5 man termie squads. A 10 man intercepter squad 1 to 2 dread knights. Lead by a grand master or librarian or both together. Basacally a 2000 point force is what I am going for right now. I was wondering if any one has tried a similar list. And how deep striking everything work. Or am I better of off using rhinos and storm ravens and land raiders. I want an all gk force so no inquisition.

 

Thanks sorry for any mis spelling I'm on my phone.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Deep striking all those expensive units is very risky.

 

G :P

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

**EDIT** I retract my statement of drop pods since you didn't list them as an option.

 

 

I haven't read all of the GK codex, but it would depend on how you played that list and if your opponent didnt reserve their entire list as well. SO depending how the opponent setup and how you tend to play this; I Black Orange that it will be very risky with such a small force of expensive units.

[thade]

He might want more detail.

 

Consider converting to combat squads when you DS and split the Psycannons up so you can increase the number of targets you can engage at need. Use servo skulls (from the Librarian) to help you mitigate scatter. d6" is really not that bad at all.

 

GK play from the center of the table with their 24"...so DS them there and really you don't have much moving left to do. You can use foot-slogging Strikes to get to objectives on your table side, and press from center on (post-DS) to contest the others.

 

Beacons on the Librarian, Purgation squads, or even Storm Ravens can really help putting things where you want them.

 

This is doable, but as B.O. said...it's a bit risky. The risk is probably manageable with beacons and servo skulls. :P

[Adir]

The best all GK DS list would be Mordrak + 5 ghost knights + attached Grandmaster with psycannon.

 

The rationale is that they show up first turn wherever you need them then use their combined psychic communion prowess to guide in their fellow battle brothers. Make sure to sprinkle the field with servo skulls and you are set. Psy/comm stacks so you are bringing dudes in on turn 2 on a 2+.

 

A slightly cheaper variation is a malleus inquisitor in TDA strapped with a psycannon and packing Psychic Communion (100pts). Cheaper overall and cheaper servo-skulls.

 

Edit: make sure that Mordrak comes in on a weak flank to prevent him from getting fragged turn 1/2. His band of merry men in cover should be enough to keep them alive and the psycannon lets you get in a few early side armor shots.

[thade]

I am embarrassed that I failed to mention Psychic Communion. Get two units on the table with that ability to help guide your DS force in, as Adir suggests. ^_^

[Aidoneus]

I play an all-foot GK force (Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights are on foot too! ^_^ ) and I frequently leave everything in reserve and deep-strike what I'm allowed to. That's usually an OM Inq with GKTs, 2 full strike squads, and a full interceptor squad.

 

In my mind, Deep-Strike is something that you definitely want to have in your bag of tricks, but not something you should plan on doing every game no matter what. For one thing, you want to keep people on their toes. More than that though, sometimes deep-strike is very useful, but sometimes it really isn't. With 6" move and 24" shooting, it's not like you need help getting into range.

 

So here are some examples. Against nearly all 'Nids or Orks I'll start everything on the table, because I desperately need to thin their ranks as quickly as possible before they close the distance to me. On the other hand, against strong gunline armies like IG or Tau, I'll often reserve things so that I can get up in their face quickly. The wonderful thing about deep-strike is that you can shoot them before they shoot you, 100% guaranteed (no Seizing the Initiative shenanigans). So that can often eliminate some pretty painful firepower before it has a chance to hit you. Lastly, against most other armies it's much more situational. I'll often leave one unit in reserve just so I can react to things that happen in the early game.

 

There are a few things you should keep in mind. First, the more units in reserves, the more your enemy can concentrate fire on what's in play. To me, this means you should either start everything on the board except maybe 1 or 2 units at the max, or you should hold every single unit in your army in reserve.

 

Second, clever use of reserves can alter the way the entire game unfolds. In Annihilation games especially, I love forcing my opponent to go first and reserving everything. I basically deny him two entire turns of killing me, and guarantee myself first and last shots of the game. This is more of a risk in objective games, because he has time to set up on the objectives, and you then have to move him off.

 

Third, deep-striking doesn't have to be risky. I also play Chaos, and I typically keep 3 squads of 2 oblits in reserves whenever I'm facing lots of tanks. In that case, I want to come down within 6" of a tank, or at most within 12". My theory there is 'go big or go home,' because you need to be bold in your placement, or they just won't be effective. That is absolutely not the case with GKs, because of their ubiquitous 24" range. You can happily come down in the middle of nowhere, a safe 14" or so away from any enemies or board edges, and still be able to fire the turn you arrive. Now, you may end up in terrain sometimes, and every now and then you'll lose a knight to dangerous terrain, but that's not really a big problem. Very occasionally you might want to get a bit closer to get side armour shots on a leman russ or predator or something. The vast majority of the time though, you can come down safely without any tele homers or skulls (I typically use neither, and haven't found myself wanting them).

 

Fourth, you can use deep-strike, and reserves in general, to set up a hard flank. I've done this a few times now with the new GK. You force the enemy to deploy first, which almost always means he'll have to spread out a bit, since he doesn't know where you'll be. This is particularly true of short-range armies like Chaos or Blood Angels. Then, you deep-strike squads way out to one side, either in mid-field or even behind his lines. At the same time, bring your walking units on that same extreme flank. Now, all of your stuff is facing just one small fraction of his stuff. As long as you can consistently kill anything that would be in assault range (which should only be 1-2 units per turn, thanks to the flank), he will never pin you down, and he will never get enough units in one place to overwhelm you.

 

It may have become extremely obvious that I love using the reserves and deep-strike rules with the GKs. Keep in mind what I said earlier though; it's not something you want to rely on. Most good opponents know how to deploy to make life very difficult for a deep-striking army. If they can look at your list and know right off the bat how it will play, they will act accordingly. The trick is to have a flexible force that is capable of changing its playstyle to overcome your opponents' weaknesses. That way, they will never know what to expect, and you can always find a way to catch them off-guard.

[thade]

Dear Aldoneus,

 

You are a brilliant Deep Strike Tactician. Please consider writing a Tactica.

 

Regards,

A DSing noobcake

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are my thoughts on DS with GK based on games I've deepstriked some units - keep in mind I play a Draigowing army.

 

1) Versus Sisters of Battle I decided to deep strike a five man squad of Paladins (4x psycannon) and a 10 man squad of GKT with Justicar Thawn. Note I had no servo skulls. The GKT misshaped (12" scatter) and very fortunately for me went back into reserves. The 5 man Paladin squad scattered 11" heading straight towards a short table edge barely not misshaping.

 

2) Versus Imperial Guard with two Medusas... I chose to deep strike the same two units again - they both landed safely and proceeded to destroy both Medusas. I had three servo skulls but my opponent was able to remove them all before I could deep strike either unit.

 

3) Versus another Imperial Guard army. I chose to deep strike the five man squad of Paladins with four psycannons. They came in safely and did lots of damage.

 

I'd rather not deep strike unless I have to such as the game above versus the IG with a pair of Medusas. My army is fairly heavy with psycannons so I like to get into the midfield to control the board and blast away. I need to learn how to use servo skulls more effectively - currently I see them being best used as a detriment to counter infiltrating enemy units.

 

G ;)

[jeffersonian000]

How did you deep strike just a squad of 5 Paladins with 4 psycannons? Did you deep strike the other 5?

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They were a combat squad - the other five were used as a retinue for Draigo and a Libby riding in a Crusader. :P

 

G :cuss

[Whitefireinferno]

I'm still confused as Combat squadding happens upon deployment not in reserves.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I'm still confused as Combat squadding happens upon deployment not in reserves.

 

Nothing to be confused about. He just did it wrong. You cannot deep strike half a unit and walk on (or drive on) with the other half.

[thade]

I'm still confused as Combat squadding happens upon deployment not in reserves.

 

Nothing to be confused about. He just did it wrong. You cannot deep strike half a unit and walk on (or drive on) with the other half.

This is true. Since you Combat Squad when the unit is Deployed (i.e. when it's coming on to the table) and decide upon whether a unit in Reserves is DSing or walking on during Deployment (the pre-First Turn set up phase), your Combat Squads are either both DSing or both walking on.

 

I should note that, in Nurglez's case, this is a small issue...since he's running Draigo wing and could modify his list list such that the Paladin unit isn't a 10-man squad breaking into combat squads, but instead two five man units. <3 However, he'd have to do this before the game (i.e. before Deployment) to be completely kosher. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I didn't even realize until just now. Sometimes it is easy to miss simple things. Well now I know. :)

 

G :)

[thade]

I didn't even realize until just now. Sometimes it is easy to miss simple things. Well now I know. :)

There are so many rules in this game, man. If only they'd stop releasing new rule sets and instead release versions/amendments/corrected rulebooks, I think they'd keep their new book sales up and we'd actually (eventually) learn them all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hey all three opponents (different dudes) missed it as well and we have all been playing for years. At least I know now not to do it again. Combat squads has always been kind of a tricky rule even with the FAQs to help understand.

 

G :)

[BrotherWasted]

Nah, Combat Squads is easy. When you deploy, you choose whether or not to split the unit. Before that time, though, you have already had to choose whether those ten guys will walk on or DS. It's no more complicated than that.

[Adir]

I noticed recently that the space marine faq indicates that "squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads".

 

So any unit held in reserve cannot combat squad even if the unit is entirely deep striking, walking on from board edge, etc (drop pods being the sole exception per codex apparently).

 

My real question there is whether a squad can combat squad in Dawn of War when the unit comes onto the board turn 1. Technically that is not reserves so I would think they could deploy separately (that may have to go into the NOVA FAQ).

[Something Wycked]

@Adir: Quoting for clarity.

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the Drop Pod? (p69)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

Much confusion has arisen from this. The community as a whole has figured out that it means exactly what it says- units cannot be placed in Reserves as Combat Squads. However, that is not a prohibition against breaking down into Combat Squads when deploying.

 

BrotherWasted summed it up nicely, but left out some detail. When you deploy, you choose if you want to split up the unit. In practice:

 

1) Unit of 10 Terminators is rolled for to arrive via Teleportation- the roll succeeds. The player then declares combat squadding and may deploy each newly-made 5 man unit using the normal Deep Strike rules.

2) Unit of 10 Tacticals is rolled for to arrive via Drop Pod- the roll succeeds. The player places the Drop Pod, rolls for scatter, moves it as appropriate. He then declares combat squadding and deploys the unit, each model within 2" of the Drop Pod, each in coherency with their new 5 man squad.

3) Unit of 10 Assault Marines is rolled for to arrive via Reserves, coming on from the board edge- the roll succeeds. The player delcares combat squadding and moves each 5 man squad on the board from two different points.

 

What it comes down to is that both combat squads must be deployed at the same time using the same method- as combat squads are declared when the unit is deployed and not, for example, when it is placed in Reserves.

 

Edit: my own addition to answer the OP's question: Aidoneus made some excellent, excellent points. As for me, I think an all-Deep Strike force of Grey Knights would suffer in practice due to the small, elite nature of the army. Other forces can have parts of the army fail to arrive and not be hampered too much, but if units in a Grey Knight list don't come in when you need them, they represent a much greater percentage of your army list, hurting you proportionately more.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That was a well summarized discussion of the rule. Keeping that in mind I think it places a further restriction on deep striking in general if you want to break some|all of your infantry into combat squads. I think that of all the current SM codices the combat squad rule works best for Grey Knights - at least for me so far. Knowing now how to correctly apply the rule I think deep striking is more prohibitive.

 

G :D

[Aidoneus]

This issue recently came up in another thread. Simple answer is that it is perfectly legal to combat squad deep-striking units, and you do so after the reserves roll, but before placing and scattering. Just so I don't have to type it all again, I'll quote myself giving the full explanation. (trust me, it's only because I'm lazy; I'm not just quoting myself because I'm conceited :D )

 

Sorry to interupt, but I was reading your batrep against SW and I noticed you chose to combat squad when your strike squad came in via deepstrike. I dont want to seem like a rule Nazi, but that is against the rules, a unit put in reserve can never combat squad with the exception of combat squading after drop podding in. This can be found on the Warhammer 40k FAQ sheet on the gamesworkshop site.

Can you be more specific please? I read the FAQs for the 40k Rulebook and Grey Knight codex twice each looking for a ruling that says this, and couldn't find it. The closest I found was in the Space Marine FAQ (which isn't binding on GKs), and that's in relation to deploying one combat squad and putting the other in a Drop Pod. The answer is that you clearly can't do that because you combat squad when you deploy, and so you can't deploy one half at the beginning and the other half out of reserves. The answer to that question though is worded weirdly, and seems to imply that you can never, under any circumstances, combat squad units in reserves. Two things: first, I stress again how the Space Marine FAQ isn't binding on any other codex, including Grey Knights; second, that's just flat-out wrong.

 

[Edit: just read that again, and I know what they meant. The question also asked whether you could put one combat squad in the drop pod and one in regular reserves to walk on. The answer meant that they couldn't split into combat squads while still in reserves! It has nothing to do with the squad splitting into combat squads the moment they hit the table when they come out of reserves.]

 

Under the Combat Squads special rule, it says that the choice to split the squad is made "when the unit is deployed." (Codex: GK, page 21). Under the rules for reserves, it says that "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it..." (Rulebook, page 94, emphasis added). The rules for Deep Strike also specifically state that you "deploy" units. (Rulebook, page 95). Clearly, the entire unit is placed in reserves as one unit, but once it arrives from reserves it is deployed, and so that's when you get to choose to split it up. You split the squad before placing it on the board, and can thus place them in separate locations. (Codex: GK, page 21). Therefore, the rules clearly allow me to deep-strike the way I did.

 

Oh, by the way Thade, I might just go along with that suggestion for a tactica. I generally feel like I'm a solid, but not phenomenal player; however, deep-striking is one area where I think I do in fact have considerably more experience than most people. I won't have much free time 'til next week, but hopefully I'll get something up then.

 

In the meantime, Something Wyked is absolutely right about the randomness of reserves rolls. I've experienced both sides of coordinated assaults where nearly everything comes down second turn, and I've also been on both sides of less fortunate armies coming down one unit at a time. When things work well, it can be incredibly effective, particularly with GKs. On the other hand, if you come down one or two units at a time, it's like feeding a meat-grinder. I will say that Psychic Communion helps with this. Two problems though: first, I generally have my GM or OM Inq in reserves along with everything else; second, I find the +1 or -1 doesn't always make much difference. I'd rather it were just a plain re-roll. Still, if it brings even one unit on when you want, or keeps even one unit out for a late-game objective grab, it was worth it.

[thade]

I won't have much free time 'til next week, but hopefully I'll get something up then.

I look forward to this. Actually, post GK army painting, I'm aiming to build up my marines a bit for a DS list...using Drop Pods, Tac Squads, and Scout Bikes with Locator Beacons. I'm excited for the way it will change my game play.

[neonfunk]

On a semi-related query to the original topic, which locations on the gaming board are best for servo skulls? .... with the purpose of more "accurate" DSing, NOT for dettering enemy infiltrators or reducing scatter of blast weapons such as conversion beamers. This question is posed with the context that you are facing a shooty army such as Tau.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Neonfunk

 

N.B. I further advocate for the demand of a DSing tactica.... so, TACTICA TACTICA TACITCA..... PLEASE?!

[thade]

That's a very good question, and not one with a straight up answer. In general, I'd say "near enough to each other that DSing units landing at them can help one another" (which is long range with storm bolters) and "in a place that appears advantageous to you given the terrain layout and mission type...and whatever other factors matter".

 

Non-trivial. For my personal list, probably somewhere that will make my opponent think I intend to DS there...so he commits some or all of his force to deal with DSers...which then don't DS and I instead deploy entirely opposite the skulls such that I can engage his force piecemeal and not all-at-once.

 

But that won't work all the time. Nothing will. <3 Hence, non-trivial.