How well does al deep strike force work

[neonfunk]

To Thade:

Thanks for your reply, I was very much thinking along the same lines, but just wanted some form of "confirmation" from a more experienced/knowledgeable person than myself.

 

On a side note, with all this combat-squadding during deployment ambiguity what-not...... I've kinda landed in a pickle in regards to my list. Can someone please help me? (I've decided to just post it here, instead of creating an entirely new thread, as the question is semi-related to the OP re Deep Striking and the ensuing discussion re Combat Squadding)

 

My pickle (the assertion) is:

 

- I want to have a unit of 10 GK Strike Squadders (well, actually, I only need 5 but for the sake of pysbolt ammo pts efficiency, etc...)

- Therefore, I want to combat squad this 10 man unit, with ONE combat squad of 5 to be in a transport (rhino/razor, etc...)to start the game on the board, and the other combat squad to DEEP STRIKE

- Hence, the pickle is, as the discussion above ^ adequately dictates, that this is not possible. Those 10 GK's are either deployed at the start of the game on the board, OR are all together reserved.

- So, its NOT possible to have Combat Squad 1 to be kept in reserve for DS, and to have Combat Squad 2 in a transport at the start of the game.

 

My Questions (assuming that all I have said above is correct... and if it is not, then can someone please correct me, thank you), therefore are:

 

- What happens if you have a unit of 5 (just 5, NOT 10) GK Strike Squadders, with a dedicated rhino attached, and this unit is kept in reserve with the intention to DEEP STRIKE?

- What happens to the dedicated transport? Does it get to deep strike along with said 5 man unit? Or does it start the game on the board?

- If the answer is "no, the dedicated transport cannot DS (with the GKSS unit)", then is it then possible to just simply deploy the "dedicated" transport on the board at the start of the game "by itself" (and the intended contents of that transport i.e. the 5 GK's be kept in reserve for DS)?

- If this is the case, then technically what part of the Force Organisation Chart does this be vehicle belong to? Would it still be counted as part of the troops slot, since it was intended to carry the GKSS?

- Is it also possible to just simply choose an EMPTY NON DEDICATED vehicle to be deployed at the start of the game on the board e.g. razorback (I know this question is kinda unrelated, but would still have ramifications to my whole scheme of things) in your list? If so, which slot in the FOC does it take up?

 

Many thanks in advance for any replies, MUCH appreciation for any efforts to enlighten me. I need help!

N.B. The Stormraven CAN Deep Strike, but it is not a viable option in my list, so really I'm only referring to rhinos and razors in my questions. Thanks

[number6]

My pickle (the assertion) is:

 

- I want to have a unit of 10 GK Strike Squadders (well, actually, I only need 5 but for the sake of pysbolt ammo pts efficiency, etc...)

- Therefore, I want to combat squad this 10 man unit, with ONE combat squad of 5 to be in a transport (rhino/razor, etc...)to start the game on the board, and the other combat squad to DEEP STRIKE

- Hence, the pickle is, as the discussion above ^ adequately dictates, that this is not possible. Those 10 GK's are either deployed at the start of the game on the board, OR are all together reserved.

- So, its NOT possible to have Combat Squad 1 to be kept in reserve for DS, and to have Combat Squad 2 in a transport at the start of the game.

While I still don't think it's possible for you to reserve any GK unit and combat squad upon deep striking -- put me in the camp that thinks a unit is "deployed" into Reserves and that we are therefore bound by the precedent set in the SM codex FAQ regarding combat squadding and reserves -- I can at least appreciate the opposition's point of view.

 

That said, even in the case where you could combat squad upon "deployment" -- where the word is defined as when the unit actually is placed on the tabletop -- there is no option available for you do what you suggest. The unit remains whole -- NOT combat squadded -- until it's on the table. There is no way at all to create combat squads before deployment, no matter how you choose to define the term.

 

- What happens if you have a unit of 5 (just 5, NOT 10) GK Strike Squadders, with a dedicated rhino attached, and this unit is kept in reserve with the intention to DEEP STRIKE?

- What happens to the dedicated transport? Does it get to deep strike along with said 5 man unit? Or does it start the game on the board?

- If the answer is "no, the dedicated transport cannot DS (with the GKSS unit)", then is it then possible to just simply deploy the "dedicated" transport on the board at the start of the game "by itself" (and the intended contents of that transport i.e. the 5 GK's be kept in reserve for DS)?

- If this is the case, then technically what part of the Force Organisation Chart does this be vehicle belong to? Would it still be counted as part of the troops slot, since it was intended to carry the GKSS?

- Is it also possible to just simply choose an EMPTY NON DEDICATED vehicle to be deployed at the start of the game on the board e.g. razorback (I know this question is kinda unrelated, but would still have ramifications to my whole scheme of things) in your list? If so, which slot in the FOC does it take up?

Unless a unit is given explicit permission to deep strike, it can't. This includes vehicles. Infantry units to not confer their deep strike capabilities to any vehicles upon which they may embark, even dedicated transports. (The only case where an infantry unit confers one of its own special rules to a vehicle is in the case of Scout, and even then it only transfers to a dedicated transport. This is why it is impossible to get a Scouting land raider or stormraven.)

 

As this implies, all vehicles -- including dedicated transports -- are units in their own right. You may deploy them in any legal way that you may wish. If you buy a unit of Strikers and buy them a Razorback, you are not required to deploy the Strikers into the Razorback. You may reserve them for deep striking and deploy the razorback "normally" onto the table, empty. Or you can reserve it separately from the reserved Strikers, letting it roll onto the table once its own reserves roll succeeds. Or you can deploy the Strikers into the Razorback and reserve the whole combination as a single unit that will roll onto the table once you make its reserves roll.

[Adir]

It does feel like we are trying to invent new rules especially in light of the recent space marine FAQ.

 

We have changed the NOVA FAQ to disallow combat squading units held in reserve precisely because of the FAQ release.

 

As much as I would like to outflank a squad of purifiers in a razorback, keeping 4 psycannons on foot and 5 mounted purifiers, I just can't make that work with the current ruleset.

 

I recognize and respect the various opinions on the matter and just wanted to let folks know which way we are going with the NOVA Open (for whatever that is worth :) ).

[thade]

This whole "combat squading from Reserves" confusion is new and a bit weird. The FAQ entry people have been referring to is poorly worded. It means you can't break a unit into combat squads when you place them into Reserve; it does not mean you can't break them into Combat Squads thereafter (when they Deploy). Note the issue it was intended to address: half a squad in a Drop Pod, half a squad elsewhere.

 

It's very easy. You break units into combat squads when they deploy, per the Combat Squad rule. That means you can do it during these times:

1. When you deploy at the start of the game.
   
2. When a Drop Pod hits the table and the unit disembarks from it, they may break into combat squads. This is per the Drop Pod entry itself.
   
3. When a unit's Reserve Roll comes up hot and it deploys, it may break into squads.
   

Note that in the case of #3, you've already declared that the unit is in Reserves and how it will be entering play (DSing, walking on, embarked in a transport, whatever). That means when you break that unit into combat squads, each squad is deploying the way you declared it to initially. This only gets sticky when you declare them all embarked in a transport that's not a drop pod. And it's really only a little sticky. What the FAQ is trying to address is the instance where the two combat squads enter the field at separate times...which is not allowed. The wording is confusing. Don't get mired in that.

[nurglez]

That faq question was mainly aimed at drop pods, because you cant have 2 units in the same transport, but you can with a drop pod. They really screwed up the answer though.

 

You can't combat squad a squad and deploy half while the other is deployed. That is the main point of the faq question.

 

Back on topic, and all deepstrike force could work, but you risk having units come in piecemeal and being ganged up on.

Servo skulls can help, along with teleporter homers. I feel deep striking should be an option for us to use, and the threat of it is good to have, but mix things up a bit, keep the enemy guessing ao they are responding to you.

[number6]

This question (combat squadding from reserves) is clearly common enough and sticky enough to require a discrete and exact answer from GW.

 

We'll be onto 6th edition 40K before we get that, I bet. :)

[thade]

This question (combat squadding from reserves) is clearly common enough and sticky enough to require a discrete and exact answer from GW.

 

We'll be onto 6th edition 40K before we get that, I bet. :)

Haha, yes, that's true enough.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah. It's not nearly as simple as BW made it out to be.

 

G B)

[neonfunk]

Thank you all for the replies, much appreciated...

 

To Number6:

 

As this implies,[b] all vehicles -- including dedicated transports -- are units in their own right. You may deploy them in any legal way that you may wish.[/b] If you buy a unit of Strikers and buy them a Razorback, you are not required to deploy the Strikers into the Razorback. You may reserve them for deep striking and deploy the razorback "normally" onto the table, empty. Or you can reserve it separately from the reserved Strikers, letting it roll onto the table once its own reserves roll succeeds. Or you can deploy the Strikers into the Razorback and reserve the whole combination as a single unit that will roll onto the table once you make its reserves roll.

 

This nicely gets me out of my pickle, so kudos. However, can I just get a confirmation on which part of the FOC that they (the empty razorback) belong to? Does it depend what was initially meant to be inside of the transport (e.g. if GKSS then it is part of the troop slot occupied by the GKSS?)

 

In your above quote ^ that I have bolded, you are implying that Rhinos, Razorback, and Inquisitorial Chimeras are "units in their own right". Which would lead to the assumption that if I select one of them (as a NON-dedicated transport), they would fill....................... which part of FOC? Sorry to bog you down with my questions, its just confusing because in the GK codex, the rhino, razorback and chimera entries fall under the "dedicated transport" section..... Hence, an EMPTY NON DEDICATED rhino/razor would fit where in the FOC?

 

Again, many thanks for all of your advice, and perhaps more importantly, enduring my "noobness".

 

Cheers

[Adir]

So back OT... anyone have experience using two Psychic Communions to bring in DS'ers reliably?

 

I am toying with such a list but haven't gotten to actually play it yet. As mentioned previously I am thinking about using Mordrak/Malleus inq combo for the Turn two, 2+ reserve roll. The severe downside is that I lose the libbie in that list - he is almost too good not to take.

[number6]

However, can I just get a confirmation on which part of the FOC that they (the empty razorback) belong to? Does it depend what was initially meant to be inside of the transport (e.g. if GKSS then it is part of the troop slot occupied by the GKSS?)

Dedicated transports are always counted as coming from the same section of the Force Org chart as the unit for which the transport was purchased. Thus, a Razorback bought for Strikers is a Troops unit, while the exact same Razorback purchased for Purifiers is an Elites unit, and the exact same Razorback purchased for Purgators is a Heavy Support unit.

 

Of course, dedicated transports never actually occupy a Force Org chart slot. :)

 

anyone have experience using two Psychic Communions to bring in DS'ers reliably?

 

I am toying with such a list but haven't gotten to actually play it yet. As mentioned previously I am thinking about using Mordrak/Malleus inq combo for the Turn two, 2+ reserve roll. The severe downside is that I lose the libbie in that list - he is almost too good not to take.

I used to think the same thing about the GK libby ... but I find that I never ever use him in my lists. Go figure. B) I agree he's great, but I find he's far from necessary....

 

Anyway, I haven't personally used double Psychic Communion, but I have designed Mordrak army lists that use it. (Also favoring a Malleus Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon, attached to the Mordrak Ghosts.) I believe that it can work provided that you have more than Mordrak's unit on the table on turn 1 to provide additional pressure. I favor Interceptors and Dreadknights for this role.

 

Without using Mordrak and a Malleus Inq and the Interceptors and DKs, I'm not sure how else to get 2 Psychic Communions and yet have an army that functions from turn 1 onwards. You an't use Pyschic Communion unless the model casting it is already on the table, so you have to deploy something on turn 1, and you also can't allow what you do deploy to be destroyed by the enemy because they can focus entirely on it.

 

It's a difficult proposition. My proposed army build is the best I've yet been able to come up with to make an "all" reserves GK army function properly.

[neonfunk]

So back OT... anyone have experience using two Psychic Communions to bring in DS'ers reliably?

 

I am toying with such a list but haven't gotten to actually play it yet. As mentioned previously I am thinking about using Mordrak/Malleus inq combo for the Turn two, 2+ reserve roll. The severe downside is that I lose the libbie in that list - he is almost too good not to take.

 

I'm actually running a Draigo and OX Inquisitor double psychic communion list.

 

I might summize my list, a bit of critique is more than welcome! So here goes...

 

HQ: Draigo,

HQ: OXI w/ Pyschic Communion, plasma syphon, rad grenades, 3 servo skulls (i want more!!!!)

 

Troops: 7x Pallies (reserved)

Troops: 1x Pally (yes, that's right, one! lol) w/ Warding stave. (reserved)

Troops: 10 x GKSS w/ usual loadout, psybolts, etc... with Dedicated Razorback (This unit shall be combat squadded. with one half DS'ing)

 

Fast Attack: 10 x GK Interceptors

 

Heavy Support: Nemesis DK w/ Teleporter, incinerator, and hammer

Heavy Support: Nemesis DK w/ incinerator (reserved)

 

Henchie Warband: 3 x Acolytes w/ Plasma Guns, 3 x DCA, 2 x Crusaders, 1 x Mystic w/ Dedicated Chimera

 

I like the look of this build because it is a very re-active force, i have a wide options of deep striking with somewhat accuracy and timing (thanks to servo skulls, mystics, and psychic communion respectively). Add to this shunting shenanigans, and you have quite a mobile force that can respond accordingly. The only trouble is getting Draigo, Inquisitor and Henchies (in the chimera of course) to a respectable distance on the board. I'm hoping that the Razorback and the DK can provide enough cover/target saturation for the Draigo to come through unscathed so that he can be united with his pallies.

 

Any good? Of course, we are assuming our opponent is a shooty army... Why else would we go for DS??

If not, I re-iterate my previous demand.... WE WANT DEEPSTRIKE TACTICA NOW! =P

 

Cheers

[thade]

So back OT... anyone have experience using two Psychic Communions to bring in DS'ers reliably?

I am planning to do this with my first list (it's going on the bench for assembly this weekend!!) because I get the feeling it'll be awesome; may as well mathhammer it.

 

On turn 2, reserves come in on 4+. On turn 3, they come in on 3+. On turn 4, they come in on 2+. On turn 5 and thereafter, automatic. (I say thereafter because DS mishaps can keep them out until turn 6 or even 7 if you're very very unlucky.) So here's a format: 4/3/2/IN

 

Using one application of Communion, I now have my choice of two formats per Reserve Roll...important to note that I get to decide after the roll is made. The two formats are 3/2/1/IN (or really 3/2/IN/IN) and 5/4/3/IN.

 

Using two applications of Communion, I can decide between 2/IN/IN/IN and 6/5/4/3.

 

This means - with two stacks - if I want that unit in, it is VERY, VERY, VERY likely coming in. Conversely, if I don't want it in, I have a really nice chance of delaying it. It's better at getting something in earlier than later...which for a "zero-day"/all DS list is very much what you want. Unless you roll 1s, much (or even all) of your force will come in on turn 2.

 

So, I do believe it's very good for DSing. In fact, it's pretty much fundamental when you consider how few units a GK force can have. If you're DSing you want them in early and together.

[number6]

Troops: 10 x GKSS w/ usual loadout, psybolts, etc... with Dedicated Razorback (This unit shall be combat squadded. with one half DS'ing)

Ummm, didn't we just get through explaining that you cannot do this? :lol: Go back and read my answers to your query!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have designed Mordrak army lists that use it. (Also favoring a Malleus Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon, attached to the Mordrak Ghosts.)

 

That is a nice combo. I like it.

 

G :lol:

[thade]

Troops: 10 x GKSS w/ usual loadout, psybolts, etc... with Dedicated Razorback (This unit shall be combat squadded. with one half DS'ing)

Ummm, didn't we just get through explaining that you cannot do this? :lol: Go back and read my answers to your query!

>_<

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That just shows how truly confusing the rule can be. No foul, no harm.

 

G :)

[Aidoneus]

Well, I don't really understand what's so confusing. The Rulebook is actually very clear about when units deploy. The only potentially confusing part is that they don't all necessarily deploy in the Deployment Phase. However, even there the rulebook is clear.

 

-Under Infiltrators and Scouts (92) it says, "First, the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule)."

-Under Reserves (94) is says, "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

-Under Rolling for Reserves (94) it says, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.

 

I realize that some issues are contentious because the rules truly are unclear, and in those cases a FAQ truly is needed. Sometimes though, confusion happens simply because players don't understand the rules. It happens to us all, and it's because there are a million fiddly little rules; I mean absolutely no judgment here. But seriously, look at the rules as written in the book. In this case, there is a right answer.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think the way it has been explained here makes it clear which is a good thing. :)

 

G :lol:

[BrotherWasted]

Yeah. It's not nearly as simple as BW made it out to be.

 

G :lol:

 

Yes, it is. Stop overcomplicating things and RTFM.

 

"This 10-man Squad will go into reserves and come on via Deep Strike".

*roll a successful reserve roll*

"I'm going to Combat Squad this 10-man unit"

*deep strike both 5-man units*

 

:cuss. That's EXACTLY how the rulebook tells you to play it out. You cannot combat squad WHILE in Reserves. Instead, you just make that decision when they arrive and are going to be deployed.

 

End. Of. Story.

[Something Wycked]

There's really no need to get snippy, BW. Everybody's brain works differently and interprets things differently, and this is GW's "bulletproof" rule set we're talking about here.

[BrotherWasted]

Which is really still no excuse for a specific set of rules that clearly state how they work with little room for valid interpretation.

 

While GW's rules are often complete garbage in terms of structure, the rules for Deep Striking and Combat Squadding are pretty darn clear.

 

You decide to Deep Strike long before your unit arrives from Reserves. It really is just that darn simple. Because you've made that decision openly, and your opponent has been made aware of it, you have to commit to it when your unit arrives.

[thade]

People are allowed to ask rules questions here and expect to get a polite answer without getting flamed for it, no matter how simple the query.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

+1 to my man thade !

 

:cuss

 

G

[number6]

Chill your flamebot, BrotherWasted. That kind of attitude is not tolerated on the B&C. Follow Aidoneous's example or suffer the consequences.

 

@Aidoneous: Most excellent. ^_^ I am indebted to you.