Combat Tactics

[Aegnor]

Apologies as I'm sure this has been raised before but neither search function or a long dig through this forum helped me find this answer.

 

I don't understand how 'combat tactics' works. I get the basic idea that its meant to let us get an extra round of rapid fire shooting in, but when I've read and re-read the rules, I just don't get how this is meant to work. It's quite frustrating as I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding something simple here.

 

My issues are that it seems unlikely you can disengage successfully - more often than not you'll fail the initiative roll off. If you do manage to flee, won't the enemy simply pursue you, either drawing you straight back into combat or most likely staying within 6" to keep you fleeing?

 

It just seems an advantage that is of use so very rarely as to be pointless. I have to admit I have regularly opted for special characters simply because I can see a way to use their chapter tactics rules instead.

 

Would be very grateful if someone could talk me through how Combat Tactics is meant to work...

[thade]

Sure thing.

 

In the vanilla dex, Combat Tactics allows a Space Marine infantry unit to choose to fail a morale check; instead of rolling on it and having a chance at passing. You'll note that the chance of passing is very good for marines, but not absolute.

 

Some reasons you might want to choose to fail:

• You just got riddled with pistols and flamers and are about to be charged, but as luck would have it you lost enough squad members to force a morale check. You choose to fail, roll 2d6, move, and put yourself outside of assault range. You auto-rally the next turn and can fire on that would-be assault unit with heavy weapons, thanks to ATSKNF.
  
• You are in combat and would rather not be. Marines have a pretty good initiative and risk little by falling to Sweeping Advance (as they have 3+ armor and rally instead of being blown off the table). You lose combat, choose to fail, and if you succeed in breaking away, you can either fire on that unit with all of your guns next turn, move away, or even charge back in enjoying the bonus attacks.
  

You wouldn't want to choose to fail, of course, if you have high odds of fleeing off the table, or if you want to be locked in combat (to keep an enemy unit from moving/firing/charging something else), or if you want to hold your position (i.e. Devastators or something with a good vantage point).

 

Make sense?

[AyanamiKun]

And to add something: Even if the enemy stays close enough and prevents your unit fram rallying they can be shot at by your other forces. This might enable you to shoot down an enemy close combat unit which is trying to hide in close combat ;)

[Koremu]

You're entirely correct OP. Combat Tactics was somewhat useful when it was introduced, mostly due to other players unfamiliarity with its use.

 

Now (as Marines are the most widely played army), everyone and their dog are aware of its use and vulnerabilities, and it's become largely (although not entirely) useless, and in some cases an outright liability which just lets foes run you off the table edge.

[Master Melta]

I can on a basic level via a few scenarios.

 

1: Your marines are about to be charged by a horde of orks that are let's say 3 inches away, the horde shoots, killing enough marines to make them take a fall back check. You elect to fail and fall back. Average on 2D6 is 7 I believe. So you fall back and are now 10 inches away. During your turn you auto rally, move 3 inches to whatever direction you feel appropriate and then rapid fire the orks, killing a few, more than you would have killed in hand to hand. The other benefit is that you should now be in a better position to support this squad that was underfire with another nearby unit, let's say a dread or another tactical squad. This way you can shoot 2+ units at the orks and maybe even assault with the dread to lock them up. If you didn't have combat tactics, you would now be in a multi-turn losing assault with a larger mob of orks.

 

2: The ork player elected to assault you without shooting! Smarter git than the other one. When the assault is all over you are on the losing end, and elect to fall back. He may catch you and if so you take some fearless rolls, but if you get away, even if you are still broken next turn due to his proximity, you rapid fire his green assteroid. You might not kill them all or even enough to break them, but you can bet you'll kill more this way than in assault. Plus, like scenario 1, you allow your supporting units time to manuveor and engage the threat.

 

3. You are in combat with a tarpitting dread that will eventually grind your marines into the dirt. Well if you lose combat, you can attempt to fall back and either use that melta gun on the dread during your turn or engage it with heavy weapons that would otherwise not be able to shoot at it since it was in combat with your goons.

 

Rules:

 

Combat Tactics should be used in your enemy's turn more often than not, even if you assault a unit and lose, if you break off at the end of your turn, the enemy can then shoot the fleeing unit, regroupable or not.

 

Beware the table edge. If you are within 10 inches of your table edge, be careful not to drop out of combat only to run off the table. This may be a necessity, like sacraficing a combat squad to take that dread down, but it's a risk you have to concider.

 

Those are the more obvious ones I can think of.

 

MM

[Master Melta]

You're entirely correct OP. Combat Tactics was somewhat useful when it was introduced, mostly due to other players unfamiliarity with its use.

 

Now (as Marines are the most widely played army), everyone and their dog are aware of its use and vulnerabilities, and it's become largely (although not entirely) useless, and in some cases an outright liability which just lets foes run you off the table edge.

 

 

I still use it regularly. It's not a game breaker, but in many games I play, nickle and diming the bad guy to death makes the game more managable.

[thade]

You're entirely correct OP. Combat Tactics was somewhat useful when it was introduced, mostly due to other players unfamiliarity with its use.

 

Now (as Marines are the most widely played army), everyone and their dog are aware of its use and vulnerabilities, and it's become largely (although not entirely) useless, and in some cases an outright liability which just lets foes run you off the table edge.

 

 

I still use it regularly. It's not a game breaker, but in many games I play, nickle and diming the bad guy to death makes the game more managable.

I miss combat tactics; I used to use it frequently, as even with perfect knowledge of its applications and limitations, no opponent can always set up to counter it.

[Aegnor]

And there we have the very simple couple of things I was missing - grrr stupid brain and it's assumptions. I was only thinking about once already IN assault, not avoiding getting assaulted in the first place (and there's no logical reason why I should have done so - so annoying when you do something like that to yourself).

 

The points about giving you the chance to use special weapons and more importantly, to let other units shoot at the offending enemy unit are also very good ones.

 

Many thanks guys.

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst many players are aware of Combat Tactics, there is still a virtue to it. If the opponent wants to charge you they have to decide not to shoot you or else risk failing the assault. This might not change a Genestealer or Incubi squad from mincing a Tactical squad effortlessly, but it will help when the opponent's assault unit will struggle to kill your own.

 

And sometimes you're opponent will just plum forget and shoot you.

[Master Melta]

Idaho is correct there as well. I play mainly seasoned, challenging players, and many either are surprised as it throws a wrench in their plans or they simply just don't expect it and aren't sure what to do. It's a small thing that allows doubt to creep in.

 

Don't forget, even a non-rallying group of marines can still dakka with those bolt guns!

[TyrionTheImp]

Combat Tactics makes your opponent think twice, and when they think twice, it benefits you because they're more likely to make a mistake that way. Anything that gives even the slightest increase of my opponent making a mistake is good in my book. So long as -you- know how to use it properly and you aren't questioning and thinking twice about the course of action.

[LardO'Blood]

In a ten on ten tactical squad fight, the charging side usually wins. You can counter this by falling back at the end of your opponents turn, shooting in your turn with bolt pistols and then charging. You might even have a charging bonus for some reason. (Korsarro, mission rules, etc)

Of course this doesn't just go for tacticals.

[Daeghrefn]

Remember also that a squad which is falling back may still fire. Even if the enemy is trying to escort your tactical squad off the board you'll still get to fire with them every turn. If you have a reasonable distance to run before encountering board edge it is entirely plausible that your unit will inflict more damage by running and firing over several turns than dying in a round or two of cc.

People underestimate tactical squads because most players do not utilize them tactically. :woot:

[Brother Tual]

A situational application of combat tactics can be used to break pinning. You can use this if you have gone to ground or fail a pin check and suffer enough casualties to force a moral check. By falling back, you break the restrictions on a pinned unit. ATSKNF will auto rally your unit and allow it to behave as if it had passed the pin check. Handy when snipers pin your LD8 heavy weapon combat squad or similar. Low risk too.

[thade]

A situational application of combat tactics can be used to break pinning. You can use this if you have gone to ground or fail a pin check and suffer enough casualties to force a moral check. By falling back, you break the restrictions on a pinned unit. ATSKNF will auto rally your unit and allow it to behave as if it had passed the pin check. Handy when snipers pin your LD8 heavy weapon combat squad or similar. Low risk too.

Excellent point!

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah Brother Tual isn't just an expert painter, he knows his stuff in 40K too!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Whilst many players are aware of Combat Tactics, there is still a virtue to it. If the opponent wants to charge you they have to decide not to shoot you or else risk failing the assault. This might not change a Genestealer or Incubi squad from mincing a Tactical squad effortlessly, but it will help when the opponent's assault unit will struggle to kill your own.

 

And sometimes you're opponent will just plum forget and shoot you.

 

Combat tactics is a nice way of mitigating the volley part of volley and charging.

If a unit has assault weapons and is about to charge your Tacs, such a Grey Hunters, the Wolf player might forego his boltpistols and meltaguns for fear of inflicting 25% casualties. So it takes some of sting out of it.

 

Then when the Greys do win combat, the Tacs have a better chance of getting away with just the Initiative test, instead of that after a failed Ld test.

 

Whilst it is not simple in application like tl-Flmaers, etc. it can be just as powerful.

 

+++

 

It also works for the few good mêlée units in C:SM. Hammernators get charged by Boyz. With a Templar army, the MEq would also run in and assault the Boyz. Not so much with Tacs. Hop the Hammernators out of combat, pour in firepower, perhaps break the Orks, and if not, the Hammernators have a smaller amount of Boyz to fight anyway. And the Hammernators get an extra 50% attacks due to charging.

 

+++

 

Combat tactics works well for Bike armies focusing on Mg in the squads. Whilst a PlasmaBike squad can happily pewpew from up to 24" away, and avoid getting assaulted, MeltaBikes might have to put their heads in the lion's mouth, so to speak, to get their Meltas to work.

I think Khan works better with a PlasmaBikes army, as his squad has H&R, but the loss of combat tactics is less of a big deal for the other units. But for a MeltaBikes army, the generic Bike Captain is a better fit.

[Guest kodopitharos]

Another thing I have found useful is to send your marines to the ground when being shot at by something nasty (AP3 pie templates). You save a few bodies and use combat tactics to fall back and therefore escape pinning.

 

There is the danger, however, that not enough of your marines die to allow you to use combat tactics and then you're stuck in the ground.

 

Edit: Ah, just noticed, it was already mentioned :cuss