Why do we take Honor Guard and Vanguard Veterans?

[Wolfsrage]

Even in DoA lists, why do we take Honor Guard and Vanguard Veterans?

 

I don't mean to infringe on ToU, so let me know if this post is too detailed, but I think it's important to discuss points.

 

Assault Marine - 18 points each - WS4, A1, LD8

Honor Guard - 33 points each - WS4, A2, LD9, Come with a hidden priest, Locked at 5-man squads, Access to special and close-combat weapons

Vanguard Veterans - 33 points each - WS4, A2, LD9, Can charge when they arrive via Deep Strike, Access to close-combat weapons

 

For 15 more points per model, you're essentially gaining +1 attack and squad-wide LD9. 15 more points per model. Yes, Honor Guard can take up to 4 Melta per squad to ensure that vicious tank is dead. I rarely, if ever, see an opponent with one specific tank that must die above all else. When really thinking about it though, I can't tell you when 2 Meltas haven't gotten the job done. This is a thought widely echoed by a lot of the community. I've seen a lot of mention of taking Honor Guard with 4 Plasma or 2 Melta / 2 Plasma. For a mere 30 more points, 4 Melta Honor Guard can turn into a 10-man Assault Squad with 2 Meltas and a Power Fist (that can combat squad).

 

Vanguard Veterans pay an extreme premium to be able to charge when they land. Besides Long Fangs, how useful is this? I don't see a lot of Devastators. DakkaDreads won't penetrate your armor, even if the annoying Psybolt Ammo will mean you don't get FnP. Lootas can't get through your army or FnP. There are a lot of horde-type armies you won't want to use Heroic Intervention against. When you don't DoA with the squad, you're not even using Heroic Intervention. I've seen suggestions of "decking them out." A squad of 5 VVs with a Power Fist is already 175 points. A Storm Shield is 20 per model. Power Weapons and Power Fists run the normal rate for Sergeants. I'd rather just take 5 TH/SS Terminators. Sure, they scatter 2D6". However, they're paying a mere 45 points per model for a 2+/3++.

 

I must conclude that I don't feel Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans are worth it. I think these points could be better spent on even more Assault Marines.

[MadGreek]

Ill let someone else speak to the Vanguard Vet question, but if you have extra points the Honor Guard don't take a Force Org Slot. So they are "Free" organization wise, if a tad pricey model wise.

[Wolfsrage]

While a free force organization slot, I always seem to have plenty leftover in my DoA list. B) I can see this as a valid point in Razorspam though.

 

Paying the 30 extra points to make 4 Melta Honor Guard into 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltas and a Power Fist means you can combat squad into two scoring units if necessary as well as firing those Meltas at two separate targets.

[thade]

When I take Vanguard, it's for the weapon options (a handful of single-lit claw marines) and enemy power-weapon mitigation (I can engage their PWs/PFs with my storm shield bearing marines). Assault Squads can't really do this. I very, very seldom give my Vanguard Jump Packs...and such it's a rare day that I use HI.

 

Honor Guard are a way to get a unit of four plasma guns with jump packs. The buried-priest is just icing on that cake.

 

Both options are very fluffy.

 

Not sure what else you need? B)

[Enzephalon]

I will field them for the rule of cool, once mine are finished.

You can make really awesome models for them.

 

Gamewise... I have no experience yet, but I think both can be a real force multiplier. I like the idea of a priest which can't be singled out (have you substracted the cost difference of a priest in your calculation?).

Also the chapter banner and heroic intervention could be quite cool.

[thade]

Also the chapter banner and heroic intervention could be quite cool.

To be fair, HI and DoA synergize very well.

[AustonT]

For me getting an HG is adding 3 wounds and a cheap power weapon (always take a Blood Champion) to a perfectly functional SP. 33 PTs a model is with JPs does not take into account the SP. A SP with JP is 75 pts. To be fair let's knock off 10pts which is a pretty big discount considering the 30 pt difference betwixt a reclusiarch and chaplain includes 1BS 1W 1I 1A. So let's call yer SN 65 pts. That brings the per model cost to 25pts. 7 pts for +1A and +1L is quite a bargain considering terminator honors used to cost 15pts. Plus acess for all four to the armory. But for VV...meh technically 15pts is what they should coat more than JPAS based on the included cost of THs that are no longer eve mentioned in the codex.

[Master-Inquisitor]

I have been asking myself the same thing Wolf! The HG seems to me that being stuck at a 5-man squad is a big deal. It's great that you get the SP included but I can't help but feel underwhelmed by their potential performance. They get super expensive if you want a nasty close combat squad and if you want shooty I'd rather use Sternguard in a drop pod or RB. I like the VV in theory but I find HI less useful in practice than a lot of people. It's not good unless coupled with a Locator beacon, which means you have to get a beacon squad into place and have it survive long enough. Haven't tried them without JPs though and it's something that I would like to test out. Maybe put them in a LR or SR and make a nasty (and expensive) squad. TH/SS terminators can drop into the enemy and survive long enough to actually do some serious damage, but aren't as maneuverable. All this however depends on tactics and I know people who swear by HG or VV so that's just my two-cents!

[JamesI]

I've really been unimpressed lately with both units. Sure, the HG have a priest, but I always seem to have a hard time keeping him near the units that really need him. I feel like I would be better off with just a priest instead.

 

And the Vanguard, I have the worst luck with Vanguard. I guess I should try them again, but I haven't been too impressed yet.

[thade]

And the Vanguard, I have the worst luck with Vanguard. I guess I should try them again, but I haven't been too impressed yet.

I sympathize. People often tool them up, drop them in deep (and alone, too far from any other targets) and they might manage to reach and even kill their target. Either way, they take a LOT of fire and die in the following round.

 

HI's far more useful as a "Drop in and support whoever needs it" (hence the name is "heroic intervention" and not "suicide squad"); since I so often run my force as one to two detachments, I usually just run the VV on foot/in a transport, as either detachment will have either the Vanguard or another unit present to counter-assault, at the ready. One advantage to not having the VV on the table (using HI) is that they won't take any fire before they charge something. Even with DoA though, the lack of absolute predictability is a bit of a risk.

[Brother Nathan]

surely though yu dont just fire vanguard at devistator like squads...? i wouldnt expect them to win but id throw them at tacticals and the like to tie them up and block lines of sight etc. id never expect them to pay for them selves but how much of your army do you expect that from in any case anyway?

[JamesI]

And the Vanguard, I have the worst luck with Vanguard. I guess I should try them again, but I haven't been too impressed yet.

I sympathize. People often tool them up, drop them in deep (and alone, too far from any other targets) and they might manage to reach and even kill their target. Either way, they take a LOT of fire and die in the following round.

 

HI's far more useful as a "Drop in and support whoever needs it" (hence the name is "heroic intervention" and not "suicide squad"); since I so often run my force as one to two detachments, I usually just run the VV on foot/in a transport, as either detachment will have either the Vanguard or another unit present to counter-assault, at the ready. One advantage to not having the VV on the table (using HI) is that they won't take any fire before they charge something. Even with DoA though, the lack of absolute predictability is a bit of a risk.

The problem with using HI like that is timing. My luck for reserves says that if I need something turn 2, I get it turn 4. If I don't want it yet on turn 2, I will always get it turn 2. So I tend to avoid using too many reserves, unless I'm facing something that I just can't afford to fly across the table against, I prefer to deploy everything (part of the reason I prefer Astorath to Dante).

 

I also don't tool up a Vanguard that much, I treat them very much as an old VAS (1-3 guys with upgrades the rest standard armaments). I prefer to keep Vanguard relatively cheap.

[thade]

The problem with using HI like that is timing. My luck for reserves says that if I need something turn 2, I get it turn 4. If I don't want it yet on turn 2, I will always get it turn 2.

Definitely. DoA helps a little...but not enough. Best way to handle this is to field two VV squads and combat squad them each. Now you've got four teams coming in; likely you'll get 2-3 of them where you want them. It's not ideal; and even with only a handful of upgrades VV are pricey with jump packs.

 

I also don't tool up a Vanguard that much, I treat them very much as an old VAS (1-3 guys with upgrades the rest standard armaments). I prefer to keep Vanguard relatively cheap.

Same here.

[knife&fork]

VV and HG are in the codex so that you have the tools to make a playable all DoA (jump pack) list. If you don't care about that there's more cost effective options.

 

However, saying that two meltas in a RAS is more than enough for anything is simply not true. If you have stuff in reserve any opponent with half a brain will be damn sure that any high value av target either has a cover save or is bubblewrapped out of melta range.

[Wolfsrage]

Hmm. This thread really hasn't helped me decide what I want to finish off my 2000 point list!

 

So far, I have the Sanguinor, a Librarian with JP, 2 Priests with JPs, and 4x10 Assault Squads with 2 Meltas and a Power Fist each. That brings my list to 1490.

 

I've considered Honor Guard, but I'm not sure I want to pay that much for Meltas. 4 Plasma is tempting. As for Vanguard, I think I might take a unit or two of 5 with a Power Fist. Again, I haven't really decided.

 

Suggestions?

[thade]

In addition to either VV or an HG? Baal Predators outflanking can be fun, and then you get to paint tanks. <3

[calgaryBA]

I'm taking them in my 'Ard Boys list (which is posted in the army list section) because my entire 6 slots of infantry is already taken with full 10 man assault squads :D

[Ash]

I just dont see how you can measure a units effectiveness without looking at how it works with other units. Thade touched on synergy and that is much harder to evaluate its easy to say model x costs y but model z is cheaper.

Blood Angels are a DOA army, VV should drop with support from HG or any one of our other choices. They are very cool and are not meant to be cheap. I guess I dont see them as suicide troops, but I am realistic enough to realise the VV at least probably wont survive the game.

I am trying out a 1000 pt list which includes VV (5 with 3 PW's) HG (3 PW's) and DC (3 with 1 PF) dropping as a rolling maul of snarling jump pack marines tearing along a flank with a RAS in support. Try to evaluate that and then figure in different opponents armies, its impossible.

 

In summary I think VV and HG are only expensive if you throw them away tactically.

[Brother Chris]

Beautiful models. Every one in the HG or VV can be different, giving them real personality as against the troops. They are quintessentially BA units. We had Veteran Assault squads before there were Vanguards. It just would never occur to me to go into a 2000 + points game without them.

 

Just depends why you play, I suppose. Rule of Cool and obvious fluff compliance beats mathematic every time for me.

[Volcatus]

VV and HG are in the codex so that you have the tools to make a playable all DoA (jump pack) list. If you don't care about that there's more cost effective options.

 

However, saying that two meltas in a RAS is more than enough for anything is simply not true. If you have stuff in reserve any opponent with half a brain will be damn sure that any high value av target either has a cover save or is bubblewrapped out of melta range.

 

+1

 

VV and HG add tools to a DoA list that RAS spam can't provide. Tar pitting/tying up shooting units (VV), and good shooting (HG). They also add a disruption element that can force your opponent to make tough decisions about targeting priority and even deployment.

 

If you want your opponent to have an easy time deciding how to fight your one-dimensional list, RAS spam is the way to go. Even combat squads doesn't make them any less so. If you want to keep them off balance, VVv and HG provide that in spades, and can sometimes go on to cause great harm if your opponent chose poorly about the method of dealing with them.

[JMac]

VV and their heroic intervention are SCARY. Have you been on the other side of the table facing these guys? Planning for these interventionist is just as hard as planning for those pesky wolf scouts. Yes, they are expensive, but for what they do they should be! How many other units out there can charge in the turn they deepstrike? I don't know of any. They have much more uses than devs or long fangs. Sniper scouts, hive guard with those cover ignoring guns, lootas, all tau, most eldar units, and even tanks! Point being, any gun is a HUGE threat to a DoA army. To beat us, is to force as many saves as possible, preferably by shooting because everyone knows we pack one hell of a punch in close combat. Sure, devs and long fangs are priority one, but VV have their role in any game. In one tourny I played in, I brought a 490 pt VV squad; sgt w/ PF/SS, 3x LC/SS, and 1 BP/CCW. I played a Nid player with lots of big bugs. A tyrant, 2 tervigons, 2 hive guard, and 2 carnifexes. He held 5 of 6 of these big bugs in the back field somewhat clumped up. I multicharged 3 of those 5 with that 5 man squad. Tied up those big bugs in combat for 3 turns allowing the rest of my army to get nice and close. In this case, they were a suicide squad, but a suicide squad with a purpose. Other games, they stay alive and act as the counter assault unit. They are tough to get use to, but have their role in DoA for a purpose.

 

As for the HG, why not take these guys? As pointed out before, they are an elite unit that doesn't take up a Force Org slot, that isn't a reason to take them but definitely a bonus. The option of a banner is AWESOME! Not running away is awesome (also, does it help with pinning test? this debate came up the other day and couldn't answer it.). The priest, everyone already knows how good that is. And last, their wargear availability. Tool them up any way you could possibly imagine. The idea of giving them 4x Melta/Plasma is only because DoA lack some serious firepower, and this is a decent way to make up for it.

 

All in all, I have to agree that they are taken because of lack of jump infantry units in the codex, and are necessary to a DoA list. You could take tons of assault squads and work it that way, it would have its moments. However the best lists in 40k are the balanced ones, and DoA are very limited on where they get their balance from.

[Meatman]

Makes me sad to see that your Vanguard are cheaper and can HI more accurately then C:SM but are still not used by many. Truly GW made an error in their design somewhere :(

[knife&fork]

I brought a 490 pt VV squad; sgt w/ PF/SS, 3x LC/SS, and 1 BP/CCW. I played a Nid player with lots of big bugs.

 

See, right here is why vanguard is not an optimal choice. You have to kit them out to the extreme if you want them versatile and deadly.

 

490 pts will get you a lot more if in other places.

[SamaNagol]

I'd pay 450pts for a VGV squad of 10 men that you can combat squad on landing and have all the Storm Shields tar pit something huge and scary, then have the guys with Power Weapons or Claws go and charge something they can carve through in 2 turns of combat

[Bartali]

I brought a 490 pt VV squad; sgt w/ PF/SS, 3x LC/SS, and 1 BP/CCW. I played a Nid player with lots of big bugs.

 

See, right here is why vanguard is not an optimal choice. You have to kit them out to the extreme if you want them versatile and deadly.

 

490 pts will get you a lot more if in other places.

 

5 models, PF/SS Sarge, 3xLC/SS, BP/CCW, Jump packs ? Comes to 300pts.

 

I was going to say, 490pts is 5xTH/SS Terminators AND a Raider