Why do we take Honor Guard and Vanguard Veterans?

[toaae]

Why do we use them?

 

Because RAS aren't really that good?

 

Don't get me wrong, they are great troop choices. But they aren't very great in CC. On the charge, they average like 4 dead MEQs, and thats with Furious charge. They aren't exceptionally durable in CC (too many units out there pack power weapons or rending). What they are is a scoring unit that has mobility, dual melta weapons, and durability to small arms fire when a priest is nearby. They are points effective for these reasons

 

An Honor Guard or VV squad are meant to be more offensive. They can take special weapons, and have enough base attacks to actually use CC weapons well. They are less durable to small arms fire (because, point for point, you are getting less wound) and do not score. They do, however, average more then 4 dead MEQs, and can be more durable in CC (thanks to storm shields).

 

It's an X vs. Y thing. Apples and Oranges. I'm not taking Honor Guard, Vanguard, Death Company, Assault Terminators, ect., to replace an Assault Squad, or to perform the same role. I'm taking those squads to kill something dead. The RAS then support that assault, kill something squishier, or hold the objectives like champs.

[JMac]

yeah, 490 was a different VV in another army. My mistake, it was 300 pts. The point still stands that they have their role. A RAS cannot take 2+ PW and lacks some serious power that the VV can pack. I will argue that they are a hard unit to use, but if used properly they are outstanding.

 

Going back to the argument of rather having an assault terminator squad, who wouldn't? 2+/3++ save is the best saves you can have in the game! However, the advantage of an all DoA army is overwhelming your opponent with precise deepstriking and in unison. While terminators are better for their points, they simply do not synergize with an all DoA list because a) they do not have the reserve re-roll b ) they scatter 2D6. Not only that, they can't charge upon arrival! A huge disadvantage.

 

Let me reiterate that VV are useful in the case of DoA armies, and almost essential in keeping your other units alive. HG you can leave at home, but they bring a balance to the army that can't be found on the same platform.

[MayorDaley]

I absolutely love to run squads of Sternguard and Vanguard. Thade and SemperAstartes both brought up the point of support from other units. I have found that these 2 have amazing synergy together, and the total doesn't break the bank.

 

For example:

 

Vanguard x 5 with JPs = 255 pts

-Sgt with LCs and MBs

-Vet with TH

-Vet with PW and MBs

-Vet with PW

-Vet with MBs

 

Sternguard x 6 = 300 pts

-Sgt with PF and combi-plas

-Vet with combi-plas

-Vet with combi-plas

-Vet with combi-plas

-Vet with combi-plas

-Vet with combi-plas

-Razorback with DB and las/plas

 

With a well placed Sang Priest (on bike, as I like to do :) ) these 2 units can shred almost anything that you can possibly see on the table. I like to use these units as surgically as possible... I don't just toss them into the grinder and wonder why my exspensive Vet squads just got smoked.

 

I have not as yet run a HG squad, mainly because as mentioned many times before, they are wicked exspensive for what you get.

 

All in all, I find that Vanguard will earn their pts back if used properly and with support. If nothing else your regular opponents will start to fixate on them and not the rest of your army.

 

Cheers

[Astorath the Grim]

I dunno personally I don't take either one of them...honor guard are FOC free sure, but there isn't any tanks I fear enough to bother taking 4 meltas in one squad. Vanguard vets are a throw back from vanilla marines, and yes its silly, but I don't see them as Blood Angels...'sides I have enough RAS and DC that I don't need anymore of the same type, especially when I can have baal preds instead.

[Fortunate Son]

One thing I've done with my Vanguard is to use locator beacons.

That's one way to make sure they get where you need them and they use the HI.

Thay are great close support for scouts or just to drop in near a "useless" drop pod.

Then have them in the opponent's face.

Either way, they are not over exposed because they are still close to another element of your army.

[Sviox]

Here's my view on HG and VV. They are both really expensive units and should only be used to support a list where they really fit in.

 

VV are very good in both fear factor and sniping out important unit on the turn they arrive. They completely mess your opponents meta-game. Best way to field them is with 5-7 men and a few power weapons. It's sometimes actually good to have a VV that does not instantly kill enemy squad but rather keep them occupied in combat for many turns. The biggest problem is that it's hard to find a target with SP near enough for the charge bonuses. VV fit really well in DoA/Drop pod lists. Don't bother if your not deep striking them.

 

HG on the other hand.. well, it's a small, costly unit to which I find hard to find any useful role. My HG are always foot slogging, inside a Razorback, with some character. This gives more range to the FC/FNP bubble, more survivability and a role as meatbags for the character (and spicing them with a hidden fist and some power/special weaponry helps out too). A banner is a nice addition to HG if your taking it. They are best suited in a mech list (I never ever foot slog my assault squads, I like them jumping behind cover of tanks and when the time comes, jump over them and charge.. their main asset is their speed to support close combat).

 

DC and SG also have very specific roles in a very specific lists, but let's not go off topic :)

[SamaNagol]

They only work in DoA lists.

 

And that's to fill in the gaps of anti armour and speed bump units.

 

Honour Guard not only provide you with a 4 Melta alpha strike, they also give you a SP to aim for with your VGV so when they Heroically Intervene they are doing so with Furious Charge.

 

VGV have strength in their ability to take Storm Shields and play wound allocation games to keep really nasty units held up just long enough for you to get your Assault Squads and Sanguinary Guard in and finish them off.

[Branek Icefang]

When using Vanguard I tend to keep them in a small cheap unit and use them to give that extra punch to whatever combat needs it... Don't think I have ever actually fielded a unit larger than 5. I run with a Sargeant with Power Sword and Melta-bombs, 2 Veterans with Power Swords and 2 Standard Veterans. 200 Points. Its a small, delicate, efficient little unit. Can't take much punishment but thanks to my play style they generally don't miss their mark (I tend to use a fair number of Scouts so I always have a Locater Beacon in the general area.) You'd think that after getting stomped by the incoming Veterans people would have learned to avoid the scouts.