Simo429 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 So I've been writing what I want to be competitive Grey Knights lists for a couple of months now and when I look over the synergy, roles and redundancy in them there is always one glaring hole. Dealing with AV14. It seems to me that you have three main choices with dealing with land raiders ect. 1. Acolytes with melta guns The reason this isn't working for me is I'm taking a couple of purifier squads and one squad of acolytes in a rhino isn't going to last long at all so whats the point in taking them when they never do anything? 2. A vindicaire assassin Again just not survivable, if I were playing GK with my wolves and I faced a vindicaire I'd hit it with missile launchers until it was dead. a 4+ save really isn't that great when a missile launcher will double him out 3. Don't take anything special This is now the route I'm looking at, now I have read but never done the maths that a psycannon is slightly better at dealing with AV14 than a lascannon and in a regular GK list you can get a lot of strength ten hits so does it become a task of trying to block your opponent off and hit him with the hammers? Looking forward to reading peoples thoughts on this? How are you dealing with heavy armour and has anyone faced a 3 raider list with their army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souba Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 i field a inquisitor with 2 jokaero, 1 - 3 multi melta servitors and up to 6-8 acolytes. i let them fire out of a chimera or let them sit in cover. the acolytes act as additional bodys i can allocate the wounds on. and they do pretty good if you get lucky the jokaero can make those multi melta even more deadly. other options for high AV killing: -psycannons -nemesis dreadknight -hammerhand + nemesis force hammer -libby with might of titan attached to a squad kills most vehicles REALLY quick -libby with warp rift : 100% penetrate works wonders on monoliths and landraiders. -stormraven with multimelta -landraider with lascannons and the option for a additional multi melta EDIT: ah yeah for those 3 raiders. i played against 4 in one 2500 point game against blood angels. my inquisitor squad was able to kill one land raider in turn 1, i had some luck to get the +12" range from the jokaero though. at turn 2 my landraider crusader + my psycannon shooting strike squad was able to kill the second.. on turn 3 and 4 my libby and my inquisitor killed the last 2. we can actually be pretty decent against high AV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I'm using a Stormraven with a hull TLMM, a venerable dread with a MM, and as many psycannons as I can pack in. It works well enough. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 6 psycannons, 3 daemon hammers, 1 teleporting DK with great sword and a libby with might and warp rift, that is how I deal with vehicles :D (1750 point Draigo wing). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I adhere to the nurglez school of thought here. Psycannons, Hammers, liberal applications of Hammerhand, and a very stalwart brother in a very large battle suit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 2. A vindicaire assassin Again just not survivable, if I were playing GK with my wolves and I faced a vindicaire I'd hit it with missile launchers until it was dead. a 4+ save really isn't that great when a missile launcher will double him out Don't forget that 4+ cover is plentiful, and thanks to stealth he has a 3+ cover save in that kind of terrain. It's good enough, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 2. A vindicaire assassin Again just not survivable, if I were playing GK with my wolves and I faced a vindicaire I'd hit it with missile launchers until it was dead. a 4+ save really isn't that great when a missile launcher will double him out Don't forget that 4+ cover is plentiful, and thanks to stealth he has a 3+ cover save in that kind of terrain. It's good enough, I think. It would be if he had eternal warrior but if you were against a vindicaire and got first turn would you not shoot the **** out of him to double him out? Its a 33% chance of failing a save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2830990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I wouldn't write the Vindicare off simply because he's at risk for ID. He might take some fire, he might die. He's got 36" range so view him as a coverage-bubble and press your Knights forward so your opponent has to contend with them. Make it such that taking shots at the Vindicare puts them in danger of being charged by units bristling with Force Weapons that might be S5 and some at I6. Don't forget that a Vindicare is not only anti-vehicle; he can also pick 2w power weapon/fist wielding models out of units, so when you charge that unit your Knights will be at a serious advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 I wouldn't write the Vindicare off simply because he's at risk for ID. He might take some fire, he might die. He's got 36" range so view him as a coverage-bubble and press your Knights forward so your opponent has to contend with them. Make it such that taking shots at the Vindicare puts them in danger of being charged by units bristling with Force Weapons that might be S5 and some at I6. Don't forget that a Vindicare is not only anti-vehicle; he can also pick 2w power weapon/fist wielding models out of units, so when you charge that unit your Knights will be at a serious advantage. Those tactics depend on you getting first turn though and the scenario I am thinking about is you not getting first turn and seeing him blown off the table before he gets to do anything. If you could put them down in pairs then I think they'd be worth it but with lasplas and missile launcher spam I tihnk you're always going to struggle to keep him alive to give him a chance to do anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 They do not depend on you getting first turn. Not sure where you got that idea. My GK will deploy as far forward as then can because - frankly - they are on foot (big and beefy wound-allocated paladins) and then I would deploy my Vindicare behind them; ideally such that her 36" range puts her shots between 12" and 24" ahead of the Knights (i.e. within their own shooting/threat range). My opponent has a choice. Attempt to pick off the Vindicare with his/her long range lascannons/MLs...or start putting wounds on the 18 multi-wound, unique-equipped ancient warriors that are staring them in the face. Frankly, it doesn't matter which they commit fire to. Ideally they'll split fire, increasing my odds of the sniper surviving as well as giving me better control over where wounds are saved within the Knights. It's always easy to construct a scenario where a model outright fails and dies for you. It's not easy but important to keep in mind that such scenarios are seldom absolute. The scenario I laid out above is one where the sniper stands a chance. Imagine the same scenario on a table that allows me to deploy my sniper such that it dramatically restricts what can initially fire on her (if anything) and her fire lane still meets my requirements: anything that approaches the Paladins will take some heat. Bring on that Land Raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Its about tools for the job, also it depends on the points that you are looking at. I know that at British tournaments we won't see many big Paladin squads because we only ever go from 1500 to 1750 points and Paladins as we all know are expensive. I also wouldn't be looking to hit paladins with missile launchers unless I had to so you target what you can first. A vindicaire has good rules but without the redundancy I don't see him working more often than not in competetive play and thats what you look for in a tournament standard army. If you continually play to the percentages you will win more games than you loose which takes me back to the drawing board. I think the only option I see is the **** block with rhinos and razorbacks and then hit the AV14 with hammers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I know that at British tournaments we won't see many big Paladin squads because we only ever go from 1500 to 1750 points and Paladins as we all know are expensive. Paladins were just an example; any sufficiently positioned forward-force would do. I also wouldn't be looking to hit paladins with missile launchers unless I had to so you target what you can first. MLs are cheap and easy to spam; they're bound to fail some saves and can only allocate one to Draigo each time I fire. Each 1 is a dead Pallie. I would do this. A vindicaire has good rules but without the redundancy I don't see him working more often than not in competetive play and thats what you look for in a tournament standard army Given the Bat Reps I've seen on the Vindicare, I think he seems very adequate for tournament play. No chance at redundancy as he's "unique"...but he wouldn't be unique if he wasn't a wicked pain, which he can be. I think the only option I see is the **** block with rhinos and razorbacks and then hit the AV14 with hammers. It's a safe bet to assume that you don't see all options; i.e. that there are others. Assuming there is only one choice and that you know it is unnecessarily restricting your ability to plan and imagine new solutions. Psycannon Spam. I've been popping Land Raiders with Assault Cannons since I started playing; Psycannons are better equipped for this task at +1 Str. Four psycannons each with four shots are sixteen chances for hits. At BS4 (hitting on 3s) you'll hit with better than half (statistically two-thirds, which is like eleven or twelve). Odds are high at least one of those will rend, probably two (if you got twelve hits, its statistically exactly two). On a Rending hit you at worst glance (S7 + 6 is 13, plus even the worst possible roll on a d3) and very likely penetrate. But you don't have only four psycannons on the field, do you? I've got six, potentially seven if I refit my Inquisitor. GK forces that aren't spamming uber-terminators will have easily up to twice as many. You have other options. Certainly Hammers with liberal Hammerhand applications is one. An accompanying Librarian with Might of Titan is another. Dreadknights with Teleporter Packs and Greatswords not only make short work of Land Raiders, but they present to your opponent a clear threat which needs to be addressed. DKs are fire-magnets. The presence of one will dramatically increase the survival rate of your Vindicare. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonfunk Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 To Thade: My GK will deploy as far forward as then can because - frankly - they are on foot (big and beefy wound-allocated paladins) and then I would deploy my Vindicare behind them; ideally such that her 36" range puts her shots between 12" and 24" ahead of the Knights (i.e. within their own shooting/threat range). So you deploy your vindicare behind a pally/similar unit? Wouldn't that drastically decrease the killing power of the Vindicare, since the enemy target will be getting a cover save, due to the fact that you (the vindicare) are firing through a friendly unit (the pallies)? Thanks in advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 To Thade: My GK will deploy as far forward as then can because - frankly - they are on foot (big and beefy wound-allocated paladins) and then I would deploy my Vindicare behind them; ideally such that her 36" range puts her shots between 12" and 24" ahead of the Knights (i.e. within their own shooting/threat range). So you deploy your vindicare behind a pally/similar unit? Wouldn't that drastically decrease the killing power of the Vindicare, since the enemy target will be getting a cover save, due to the fact that you (the vindicare) are firing through a friendly unit (the pallies)? Thanks in advance Naturally I would try to keep her firing lane clear, with height if possible. I would assume no less of anyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonfunk Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 ^ oh, i Think I misconstrued what u said. Truly Sorry, I took it as ... "deploy the vindicare (right) behind them". Sorry for that. So I was envisioning something along the lines of this: P P P P P ---> V Obviouly, P= Pally, V= Vindicare... But there is NO height to take advantage of, the Pallies and Vindi are on level ground... Ignore the arrows though, they are there because ludicrously, hitting space bar does NOT provide the adequate indentation to represent the "correct" formation for the V... With the use of space bar (before the V of course), it looks like this: P P P P P V !!! But I digress... So what I now think you are implying, is: P P P P P ---> V* Vindicare is quite back a bit further, with the *highground/birds' nest? But still, how does this increase the Vindicare's chances of survivability, in terms of COVER? Or are u just simply using target saturation shenanigans? Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2831999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Your suppositions are spot on: height and cover are ideal. :P Barring that, he's got a 4+ invuln wherever he's at; 3+ cover if I can get him in cover (or screen him with my own infantry, worst case). Honestly if I can't get something into ideal cover (Vindicare, Dread, whatever) then I present my foe with another threat that I try to make appear bigger than what I can't hide (Vindicator, Land Raider filled with killy-death, horde of angry Paladins, etc.). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2832044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayF0x3813 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 1.Lasbacks, dear god lasbacks with anything that can take a dedicated transport. 2.Dreads w/twinlinked-auto's +psybolt 3.Those dumb monkey things, they're a lascannon+ a multimelta. 4.Psycannons and lots of them. 5.Somemore lasbacks. 6.melta servitors or acolites. 7. Hammers, with hammerhand you can get a good deal of str 10 hits on vehicles. 8. dreadknight with hammer or sword. 9.Jump squads w/hammers they get close to vehicles quick... My usual setup for anti armor in my army: 1. Inqusitor w/psycollum *I can not spell so please ignore any mistakes. 8. servitors w/heavy bolters 2. Servitors w/multimelta 2. Jokers. With a good roll you'll have heavy bolters with rending or far shooting meltas, or a well armored inqusitorial squad. 2. dreads with twinlinked auto+psybolt 2-3. lasbacks 4-6. Psycannons.. 1-dread with melta and missle's and/or a dreadknight with hammer or nothing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2832160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Ignoring Inquisitional units for a moment (because not everyone wants to take Coteaz) - 2 x PsyDreads are a given. If you're not fielding this, you don't even have the beginnings of anti-tank. - Las/plas Razors: Cheap, easily fit into any army (because you can buy them for every power-armoured squad), long-range, and they pack plasma for scaring Terminators and monsters. And they can still move around Purifier combat squads (Strikes are better left at full-strength). - Stormraven twin multi-melta is a pretty reliable counter to Landraiders - Dreadknight takes the cake though. Teleporter+greatsword mean re-rolls to hit (get those 6's happening, assuming he moved), re-rolls to penetrate armour (yay, no more whiffing). Smoke means precisely jack in close-combat, so they just have to hope you don't roll any 6's to hit. Fast enough to catch most armour too, because he can Run if out of range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235076-dealing-with-heavy-armour-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2832694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.