Max Power Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Hello, I have a Blood Angels army that I've had on the shelf in favor of my Deathwing army. With new grey knights released, how does a sanguinary guard heavy army do against them? Has anyone had any experience? I appreciate any tips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I have not yet run Sanguinary Guard against Grey Knights, but my instinct is GK would be problematic. All power weapons really hurts the Guard, as does the potential for higher initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Depends on the style of Grey Knight list. If its Purifier-heavy or the guy likes giving a large portion of his GK's halberds, then you're pretty much screwed. You're not going to outshoot him, and Sanguinary Guard don't really have the bodies to charge in, suffer all the power weapon attacks the GK's will dish out before you ever get to swing. They'll die just as easily as regular Assault Marines in that scenario, while costing twice as much. If he's not halberd-heavy, or is running more of a henchmen style list, then you should do alright. Aside from the rending shots (and psyker blasts) most GK shooting doesn't punch through armor or FNP, so we stand up well there. Power weapons on all the knights are annoying but they don't usually have enough attacks to really drag you down en masse (they still got to roll a 4+ to hit, and a 4+ to wound). And if they're without halberds, you're striking first. As I said, it comes down to the individual list. In the right situations its a very winable matchup. But in the wrong situation, its an uphill battle the whole way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Only had three games against GK(one really tight loss, one really tight draw and one crushing victory, or massacre. Tabled him in turn 4.) where I fielded one unit of Sanguinary Guard. Of course, this is not really "SG heavy" but if it works for one unit, it should work for two or three or even more as well. :) So, against the Knights, it is really, really important that you take care of Halberds, which means either taking them out before you charge or outmaneuvre units that wield plenty of them. Remember, Knights still need a 4+ to hit and to wound(if they don't get HH, so remember to take a Libby with ya!). In addition, it can be nice to include Deathmasks to you SG units. Making them hit on 5+ is quite an improvement. In my games against GK, my SG performed both well and terribly ineffective. Ineffective when charged, well when charging a unit of Terminators and attached GM, wiping them from the table. Of course, they weren't alone. Keep a Priest close and a Combat Character attached to them, for example a Captain. The Invulnerable save will help you against halberds, the Furious Charge will absolutely destroy anything and a Banner will make sure that there are plenty of attacks. They work also well against Dreadknights, Interceptors and Strike Squads...oh, lets say against anything in Power/Terminator armour. Just need to get the charge on units that you'd like to assault. Shoot the rest. Yes, I think that's it basically. :( Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I6 Power Weapons beats I5 Power Weapons. So never assault the units with big numbers of Halberds in. Is it a pure SG army or do you have a Honour Guard squad in it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 sanguard army has dante. hes init 6. 7 with furious charge. combined with him making the enemy character weaker and giving his unit hit and run... well using him as part of your hammer should hurt grey knights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 The list's core is Dante and 5 SG squads. I added a close combat honor guard squad and a drop podding Libby Dread to it. I'm not sure it's going to be effective at all - even if I win combat, losing a couple SG per turn is painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Honour Guard are not better at CC than Sanguinary Guard, but what they can do in an SG list with Dante is provide pinpoint accurate Deep Strike special weapons shots. So taking Dante with an Honour Guard of 4 Meltaguns (or Plasmaguns if you are tailoring your list) who can drop down next to a Paladin squad or even bog standard Terminators and drop 8 Plasma shots or 4 Instant Death Meltaguns and an Infernus Pistol is great. They can also, if they survive the following assault, use Hit & Run to pull out of combat and fire again at the unit. Using careful placement you can even ensure that Dante cannot be charged by putting him in the middle of the DS ring ensuring he will survive and can charge into combat the next turn (again using Hit & Run) even with another Squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'm surprised that one has yet mentioned Warp Quake. That would be very annoying for you if you choose to go DoA with your Guard. The real perks to Guard over RAS are their pseudo-storm bolters, power weapons, and 2+ saves. Since all GK have force weapons, they're toe-to-toe there...and if the GK are holding halberds, you've gone from being equaled to being beaten in CC. Still, the 12" JI move and the pseudo-storm bolters might help wear them down. Again, I suggest caution in DSing them, especially if Strike Squads are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Excellent point, thade. I haven't even considered warp quake, as my deathwing mostly footslog. That presents a real issue, if I can't close the gap with them, they are going to shoot me to bits. So, I can't shoot better than they can, or assault better than they can with my troops. Perhaps I need to look at my support for the SG and see if I can fill in the weekness. Perhaps Furioso dreadnoughts with blood talons will be better suited to knocking down big squads into more manageable sizes. There are some very good grey knight players in my area, I'll have to get a couple games in and see what works best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Furiosos cause horrific damage to GKs if they can get in. Have you considered using Storm Ravens in your list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 I had considered it. My concern is how AV12 is going to do against a mass amount of psycannons. It seems like a really expensive way to get my SG and dreads close. My assumption is that in 2,000 points I'd want two ravens, if not three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Furiosos cause horrific damage to GKs if they can get in. I dunno. Most units have at least one hammer if not two...S9 with hammer hand bodes very poorly for the Dread. :) Still, if the Dread's rocking talons it might kill those hammers before they have a chance to swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 You run a 2000pt Sanguinary Guard army? lol That's more Sanguinary Guard than are actually in the whole chapter. Yeh if it is that size I would definitely recommend a couple Ravens, but you sound a little more open to running a hybrid list than a SG pure list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 *snip*Of course, this is not really "SG heavy" but if it works for one unit, it should work for two or three or even more as well. :) *snip* This is where your anecdotal advice falls apart, because an army that includes only one (or even two) units of Sanguinary Guard has the advantage of having support units to pick up the slack, with numbers, durability and ranged (or even combat) support. A pure Sanguinary Guard army is an entirely different ball of wax (especially if you go pure SG and take no vehicles), as you now lack numbers (at 50 points per model base) and any form of long range firepower (your weapons have a 12" maximum, with 6" on Infernus pistols). As outlined above, it will be entirely situational; against some GK builds your SG army will simply bounce off against. Against others it might not be as bad. Any large amount of halberds will simply wreck you, and don't even bother taking Mephiston to try and off-set it (with Psyk-out Grenades, any Grey Knight unit will make mince-meat of the Lord of Death). Even against armies that don't have a heavy amount of halberds, you will struggle because of the sheer amount of firepower they'll be able to put out. Use cover to your advantage, and if anything, try and focus on objectives. Pick and choose your fights very carefully and pray for a little (or a lot) from Lady Luck. DV8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Depends on what "Sanguinary Guard heavy" list you means. A complete Sanguinary Guard army will have LOTS of problems, though, you posses speed and is quite resilient against small arms fire, so, "shooty GK" will not be as bad for you, just don't expect outright killing it. My advice, get Veteran Vanguards, all equipped with stormshields. They work for me, because I know that I wll fight enemies that will negate my armor saves, but these guys are an incredible complement, and quite killy, specially with LC. Strangely, Paladin squads die easily to my SG army, but is probably my insane love for Infernus Pistols. Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 sanguard army has dante. hes init 6. 7 with furious charge. combined with him making the enemy character weaker and giving his unit hit and run... well using him as part of your hammer should hurt grey knights... Dante doesn't have eternal warrior. Every grey knight has a force weapon. If Dante doesn't kill EVERY grey knight before they strike back and the GK unit activates its force weapons, then one wound and a failed 4+ save and Dante is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I tried it. My advice -> DON'T GK Dreadnought gets shot by Devestators with scattering plasma cannon shot killing Inquisitor Lord. Grey Knights kill Devestators Sanguinary Guard deep strike Grey Knigts kill Sanguinary Guard. That was the entire battle :cuss" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I would feel uncomfortable playing a SG heavy army versus GK. I would rather have some VV kitted with stormshields as suggested. Halberds are a real problem and we only have access to three characters that strike at a higher initiative and have a decent chance at pulling through the first round of an assault versus a GK squad with a sizable number of halberds... The Sanguinor, Dante and Lemartes - as noted Mephiston is burnt toast versus just about any GK army heavy with Grey Knights. Spamming melta is your best bet to even the odds and that's exactly what I would use. I haven't fought any GK yet with my DoA but it's been fairly easy to beat BA with my GK. It just seems like a tough matchup for BA. G :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babel_Triumphant Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Sanguinor seems promising. He has an excellent invuln save, eternal warrior, and on the charge pumps out lots of high strength, high initiative power weapon swings. He can also throw a curse on the enemy leader and has a useful aura, for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Sanguinor seems promising. He has an excellent invuln save, eternal warrior, and on the charge pumps out lots of high strength, high initiative power weapon swings. He can also throw a curse on the enemy leader and has a useful aura, for what it's worth. I was thinking about The Sanguinor. At 2,000 points I'd be tempted to run some combination involving: Dante, Sanguinor, Plasma-guard, Sanguinary Guard, Veteran Vanguards Working extremely quickly, something like this: Dante Sanguinor Honour Guard - 4 melta guns Honour Guard - 4 melta guns Sanguinary Guard - 2 infernus pistols - 1 power fist Sanguinary Guard - 2 infernus pistols Sanguinary Guard - 1 infernus pistol Sanguinary Guard - 1 infernus pistol Veteran Vanguard Squad - infernus pistol - 2 storm shields Total: 2,000 It's obviously not an ideal list, but it gives you an idea what I'm aiming for. We're talking about massive, massive redundancy in causing huge amounts of instant death to Grey Knights. The Vanguard Veterans lose their Heroic Intervention but provide bodyguard duties for Dante. Each Honour Guard is preceded by two units of Sanguinary Guard, giving Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to the entire army. 16 melta shots per turn should be enough to slag two units, then you get into close combat. Stay together, stay close, stay focused and support every single one of your units with every single other one of your units. Dante debuffing an enemy character combined with The Sanguinor rerolling attacks against an enemy character is nasty. You can dictate The Sanguinor's Sergeant blessing because the only Sergeant in the army is your Vanguard Veteran, so you know exactly where it's going. Every model in your army has minimum 2 attacks base with The Sanguinor sitting in the middle of your force pushing the Sanguinary Guard up to 4 I5 S5 attacks on the charge. The Honour Guard also get 4 I5 S5 attacks on the charge. The Vanguard Veterans get 5 I5 S5 attacks on the charge. Dante? He's sitting pretty on 7 I7 S5 attacks, and on any turn everyone charges you're getting 21 rerolls to hit. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babel_Triumphant Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Seems fairly solid. My only question is, why aren't you using the chapter banner? It will give you no less than 5 more power weapon attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 It was 6:30 in the morning and I hadn't slept... <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 And you didn't include any Priests in your army list which I assume is an oversight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 And you didn't include any Priests in your army list which I assume is an oversight He has two Honor Guard squads, which each have a Sanguinary Novitiate (which does the same thing), albiet at a slightly higher cost but with the added bonus of additional bodies/ablative wounds, and the benefit of not being able to be picked out as easily. DV8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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