Sanguinary Guard Army vs. Grey Knights

[JamesI]

Ok, this thread has become too much about a specific list. Lets take the list discussion to the List Discussion Forum.

[Brother_Byhlli]

And you didn't include any Priests in your army list which I assume is an oversight

 

He has two Honor Guard squads, which each have a Sanguinary Novitiate (which does the same thing), albiet at a slightly higher cost but with the added bonus of additional bodies/ablative wounds, and the benefit of not being able to be picked out as easily.

 

 

DV8

 

Mhm, this. Honour Guard are a significantly more points-efficient way of including a Sanguinary Priest in your unit. I tend to field my Honour Guard behind two units of Assault Squad, but in this list they provide the same benefit to units of Sanguinary Guard.

 

The big sell for me is the option to pick up four plasma guns or four meltaguns which sit nicely behind your assaulting units. Honour Guard plus two assaulting units is a disgusting combination.

[SnorriSnorrison]

This is where your anecdotal advice falls apart, because an army that includes only one (or even two) units of Sanguinary Guard has the advantage of having support units to pick up the slack, with numbers, durability and ranged (or even combat) support.

 

A pure Sanguinary Guard army is an entirely different ball of wax (especially if you go pure SG and take no vehicles), as you now lack numbers (at 50 points per model base) and any form of long range firepower (your weapons have a 12" maximum, with 6" on Infernus pistols).

 

 

 

DV8

 

I tend to agree on the point that a SG army is an "entirely different ball of wax". And yes, a single unit in a hybrid army can be supported by tanks, cheap assault troops and long ranged weapons very easily.

 

However, I think that one can convey that concept into an SG army as well.

Instead of tanks, use buildings or other terrain pieces as cover.

Instead of long ranged fire support, you have to rely on plasma, melta and (in a way) stormbolter shots. Which is not really bad.

Instead of cheap assault troops that add more bodies to the fight, use another unit of SG. They should not walk around on their own anyways, not speaking of assault. Or just keep the in range Sanguinor to units that don't have the banner, making them as choppy as the banner-toting unit.

 

I've seen some pure SG armies that like to spam melta and plasma pistols in their squads, and they just rip any GK squad apart in the shooting phase, and mop up what's left afterwards. If there are coming about 7-8 plasma shots in their face, even the halberds will have a hard time to survive. Not speaking of Paladins and Infernus Pistols. I don't think that pure SG will have a incredibly hard time against GK, wich tend to be very elite as well.

 

That's how I see it.

 

 

Snorri

[Brother_Byhlli]

This is where your anecdotal advice falls apart, because an army that includes only one (or even two) units of Sanguinary Guard has the advantage of having support units to pick up the slack, with numbers, durability and ranged (or even combat) support.

 

A pure Sanguinary Guard army is an entirely different ball of wax (especially if you go pure SG and take no vehicles), as you now lack numbers (at 50 points per model base) and any form of long range firepower (your weapons have a 12" maximum, with 6" on Infernus pistols).

 

 

 

DV8

 

I tend to agree on the point that a SG army is an "entirely different ball of wax". And yes, a single unit in a hybrid army can be supported by tanks, cheap assault troops and long ranged weapons very easily.

 

However, I think that one can convey that concept into an SG army as well.

Instead of tanks, use buildings or other terrain pieces as cover.

Instead of long ranged fire support, you have to rely on plasma, melta and (in a way) stormbolter shots. Which is not really bad.

Instead of cheap assault troops that add more bodies to the fight, use another unit of SG. They should not walk around on their own anyways, not speaking of assault. Or just keep the in range Sanguinor to units that don't have the banner, making them as choppy as the banner-toting unit.

 

I've seen some pure SG armies that like to spam melta and plasma pistols in their squads, and they just rip any GK squad apart in the shooting phase, and mop up what's left afterwards. If there are coming about 7-8 plasma shots in their face, even the halberds will have a hard time to survive. Not speaking of Paladins and Infernus Pistols. I don't think that pure SG will have a incredibly hard time against GK, wich tend to be very elite as well.

 

That's how I see it.

 

 

Snorri

 

Just as a note, I want to say I'd forgotten about plasma pistols for Sanguinary Guard. I avoid plasma anywhere other than in my Honour Guard Squads to guarantee Feel No Pain, but a 2+ armour save is just as good for keeping you alive if the weapon Gets Hot! So, basically, just saying thanks for pointing my attention towards it!

[Roleplayer]

As someone who placed 10th at Adepticon with Sang Guard, your list is fallen into the issue most people who run sang guard have fallen into,

 

Too much Sang Guard, no long range power and the sanguinor sucks for this army list, wasting too many points along with dante in what is already a point heavy army.

 

Firstly you'll need psychic defence (specially against GKs to stop the quickening) so drop the Sanguinor and add in a Libby with Sang Sword to fight dreads and shield to give you a 5+ cover on your DoA turn.

 

Your next major flaw is you have no priests. 2+ is okay, but Sang guard strength is insane durability to the point where if the weapon is not ap 1 or ap 2, you just dont care. At 2k You need at least 2 Sang Priests with j.packs and Power swords, IMO.

 

You also need a hard hitting unit to distract your opponent that can also fight nasty power weapon high i guys in melee. For me I chose a Blood Talon dread in a Storm raven with 5 assault terminators (3X LC/2TH/SS) at 2k. (dropping out the terms at the 1850 adepticon points and using a 3rd priest instead.

My 2k Sang Guard army ends up looking like this,

 

 

Dante.

Libby with j.pack (Sang Sword, Shield of Sang.)

 

Sang Guard (Chapter banner, 2 X infernus pistols) (Dante's unit)

 

Sang Guard (infernus pistol/power fist)

 

Sang Guard (i.pistol)

 

Sang Guard (i.pistol)

 

Assault Terminators (3X LC/2X TH/SS)

 

Furioso dreadnaught (Blood Talons, heavy flamer)

 

Storm Raven Gunship (TL-Lascannon, TL/MM, extra armor).

 

This list has served me well many times. I think if you go TOO sang guardy you end up with a much weaker list. The storm raven plus the hard hitters in there give you a durable nasty death star that distracts the attention away from your sang guard.

 

it's worked for me in countless tournaments, anyway.

 

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/roleplayer40k/angels2.jpg?t=1303017850

[JamesI]

Roleplayer, I saw your stuff at Adepticon, didn't see how high you had finished. Well done and beautiful army.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Roleplayer, thanks for the reply. My thoughts in green:

 

As someone who placed 10th at Adepticon with Sang Guard, your list is fallen into the issue most people who run sang guard have fallen into,

 

Congratulations on doing so well at Adepticon. :)

 

 

Too much Sang Guard, no long range power and the sanguinor sucks for this army list, wasting too many points along with dante in what is already a point heavy army.

 

I appreciate that the list isn't perfect. I said as much when I wrote it. I also said I'd written it in the space of a few minutes and it was almost 7 o'clock in the morning. However, I don't think that long-range power is needed as much as people claim. With an army as fast-moving as jump infantry invariably are, I find long-range shooting is often a total waste of time and points. In fact, I find that shooting generally is almost a total waste of time and points. I would prefer to be in combat maybe 80% - 90% of the time, rather than have more shooting options. That's me, however, and it's my style of play. Not saying it works for everyone, but my armies are always aiming to play carefully, sticking together in one tight unit and hitting together in close-combat with irresistible force.

 

The Sanguinor in this army creates a third HQ by giving my power-sword-wielding Vanguard Veteran Sergeant his upgrade, which is hugely important. I think that psychic powers and psychic defence have a place in most of my army lists, but in this one I'm happy to put the extra points into choppy. Don't get me wrong - this is not an army that will destroy everything it comes across, but for the way I would play this list, The Sanguinor is a better HQ choice. He's adding an additional 33% damage in close combat to some units. That's massive.

 

 

Firstly you'll need psychic defence (specially against GKs to stop the quickening) so drop the Sanguinor and add in a Libby with Sang Sword to fight dreads and shield to give you a 5+ cover on your DoA turn.

 

As I say, I prefer to avoid psychic defense in this list. Because the Grey Knights are such a powerful psychic force, I figure I'm happy to let them have the psychic phase. They'll do themselves enough mischief as it is with the number of Perils of the Warp rolls they're likely to get without me spending points trying to compete in a phase I have no chance of making an impact in. This seems to me to be the equivalent of facing an Imperial Guard gunline and taking a Predator or Razorback because you don't want them to have the only long-range firepower. Against such overwhelming odds, I just don't see the value in it.

 

So far as Dreadnoughts go, I really don't fear them. I have the mobility to put vast, vast quantities of melta on top of any Dreadnought before it hits me in combat.

 

 

Your next major flaw is you have no priests. 2+ is okay, but Sang guard strength is insane durability to the point where if the weapon is not ap 1 or ap 2, you just dont care. At 2k You need at least 2 Sang Priests with j.packs and Power swords, IMO.

 

How many Sanguinary Priests? Two? For two Feel No Pain and Furious Charge bubbles? I seem to have that covered. ;)

 

My Honour Guard provide the same buff as your Sanguinary Priest but the Sanguinary Novitiate can't be singled out in combat. They also provide a highly-mobile melta platform, pumping out enough melta shots from each Honour Guard to obliterate one tank or Dreadnought each per turn.

 

Funnily enough, you're not alone in missing the Sanguinary Priest that's hidden in the Honour Guard. It happens in games as well and that's heavily to my advantage.

 

 

You also need a hard hitting unit to distract your opponent that can also fight nasty power weapon high i guys in melee. For me I chose a Blood Talon dread in a Storm raven with 5 assault terminators (3X LC/2TH/SS) at 2k. (dropping out the terms at the 1850 adepticon points and using a 3rd priest instead.

 

You told me that The Sanguinor was useless in this list, in spit of his unit buffs and the buff he provides to the Sergeant in the army and then you tell me I need a high-initiative, hard-hitting unit that can fight nasty power weapons in combat? I don't quite follow your reasoning here. For 65 points less than your Dreadnought and your Terminators (not to mention the 200+ points you've spent on your Stormraven), I'm wielding a model that will see your Terminators and handily obliterate them in combat. (In fact, I think if The Sanguinor charges your unit of Terminators, I statistically cause over three power weapon wounds. And that's without Dante and his Sanguinary Guard buddies backing him up.) And see your nice close-combat HQ unit? Not only has my Dante just debuffed him, but my Sanguinor is rerolling every single to-hit and to-wound against him.

 

 

My 2k Sang Guard army ends up looking like this,

 

 

Dante.

Libby with j.pack (Sang Sword, Shield of Sang.)

 

Sang Guard (Chapter banner, 2 X infernus pistols) (Dante's unit)

 

Sang Guard (infernus pistol/power fist)

 

Sang Guard (i.pistol)

 

Sang Guard (i.pistol)

 

Assault Terminators (3X LC/2X TH/SS)

 

Furioso dreadnaught (Blood Talons, heavy flamer)

 

Storm Raven Gunship (TL-Lascannon, TL/MM, extra armor).

 

This list has served me well many times. I think if you go TOO sang guardy you end up with a much weaker list. The storm raven plus the hard hitters in there give you a durable nasty death star that distracts the attention away from your sang guard.

 

it's worked for me in countless tournaments, anyway.

 

I'm glad the list worked for you, but my experience tells me that a single vehicle at 2,000 points won't last beyond turn two. Your Terminators and your Dreadnought compromise your mobility and are too easily stranded.

 

You have no Sanguinary Priests mentioned, but I assume there are two in there - they provide a Feel No Pain and Furious Charge buff but they're useless other than that and can be singled out in combat. Power weapons = extremely dead Sanguinary Priests.

 

I'm obviously not saying your list doesn't work. I'm just pointing out that any list has its weaknesses and imbalances. For what it's worth, I would be happy to field my list against yours. There's nothing in your list that makes me think I couldn't deal with it.

 

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/roleplayer40k/angels2.jpg?t=1303017850

 

This is beautiful. I really appreciate how much work you've put into this. Great job and, again, congratulations on Adepticon!

[DV8]

I tend to agree on the point that a SG army is an "entirely different ball of wax". And yes, a single unit in a hybrid army can be supported by tanks, cheap assault troops and long ranged weapons very easily.

 

However, I think that one can convey that concept into an SG army as well.

 

There is a difference between tactical/strategic concepts carrying over across different armies, to the actual practice of those concepts being put to use.

 

Remember again I am talking about a pure Sanguinary Guard army.

 

Instead of tanks, use buildings or other terrain pieces as cover.

 

The issue isn't about getting to the opponent. Nobody can deny that the Sanguinary Guard aren't ridiculously fast, being an entire army of jump infantry that can run every turn (and with 12" weaponry, who can blame their enthusiasm to get into close combat?)

 

The problem is that, point for point, Grey Knights (particularly with halberds) will rock the socks off a Sanguinary Guard unit. Even if you gang up and fight one of their units with 2, 3 or more of yours, you will still take a beating. And any losses you do take from firepower will drastically decrease the effectiveness of your army. Very much less so for Grey Knights.

 

Instead of long ranged fire support, you have to rely on plasma, melta and (in a way) stormbolter shots. Which is not really bad.

 

Uh what? Long ranged and close ranged don't compare at all, whatsoever, in any way of the sense. There's a reason we group them as two separate categories, long range, and close range.

 

Nevermind the fact that SG Melta weaponry is 6" max (so double-pen dice at 3"), and the Plasma and "Stormbolter" shots (which are slightly better at AP4) are still also only 12".

 

Instead of cheap assault troops that add more bodies to the fight, use another unit of SG. They should not walk around on their own anyways, not speaking of assault. Or just keep the in range Sanguinor to units that don't have the banner, making them as choppy as the banner-toting unit.

 

Again it isn't a matter of the number of attacks. It's the fact that you lack speed (against Halberd or psychically-enhanced/sped up units and numbers to last. No one doubts that Sanguinary Guard can cut down Grey Knights just as easily). The issue is can the Sanguinary Guard last long enough to attack back, and how much are you willing to sacrifice in any one (or multiple) combats simply to be able to land blows in? In fact, characters are the only way a pure Sanguinary Guard army can go toe-to-toe with Grey Knights because they are faster (especially with Priest's in range) and stronger. But you risk being Instant Killed every single time you fight a round of combat.

 

I've seen some pure SG armies that like to spam melta and plasma pistols in their squads, and they just rip any GK squad apart in the shooting phase, and mop up what's left afterwards. If there are coming about 7-8 plasma shots in their face, even the halberds will have a hard time to survive. Not speaking of Paladins and Infernus Pistols. I don't think that pure SG will have a incredibly hard time against GK, wich tend to be very elite as well.

 

Yes, but how many points are you spending there? And remember several important factors:

 

You have a 12" range on those pistols. Even assuming you manage to successfully wipe out one unit of Purifiers (a unit of 10 with halberds being just above half the cost of 2 units of Sanguinary Guard decked with Plasma Pistols), you're suddenly caught in the open in dangerous range of the Grey Knight army (you were, after all, 12" away from that one Purifier unit).

 

For a fair comparison, assume you are playing a competent Grey Knight player. Why would they leave a single unit unsupported? This means that because of your proximity to the Grey Knight army, you've basically left two units completely exposed and ready to take it in the poop-chute.

 

Listen, I'm not going to debate the whoseits and whyfores of every possible situation or tactical/strategic nuance.

 

I simply (and quite firmly) believe that a pure Sanguinary Guard has virtually every factor and variable set against them against any competitive Grey Knight list. And that's because a pure Sanguinary Guard army isn't competitive. It pays far too much and gets far too little (in my opinion, and I own and play a pure Sanguinary Guard army), with many of the Grey Knight advantages negating virtually all of the advantages that Sanguinary Guard can bring (Grey Knights don't care about your speed, tons of firepower to inflict hurt where they can, psyk-out grenades nerfing the one character (Mephiston) that can actually eat through a Grey Knight army, nemesis force weapons across the board negating the durability of your characters (save Sanguinor, who wouldn't be that great against them anyways, with only 3 wounds and a 3+ save) as well as the natural durability of your units (artificer armor across the board), and halberds/psychic powers to ensure that Grey Knights can go first and hit harder, even when being charged by you...)

 

 

DV8

[SnorriSnorrison]

Listen, I'm not going to debate the whoseits and whyfores of every possible situation or tactical/strategic nuance.

 

I agree, neither will I. Only one thing that you might misinterpreted:

Uh what? Long ranged and close ranged don't compare at all, whatsoever, in any way of the sense. There's a reason we group them as two separate categories, long range, and close range.

 

Nevermind the fact that SG Melta weaponry is 6" max (so double-pen dice at 3"), and the Plasma and "Stormbolter" shots (which are slightly better at AP4) are still also only 12".

 

I didn't mean that Long ranged support fire compares to close range fire. I meant that close range fire is the substitution for all those lascannons, mulit-melta and whatnot in a pure SG army. Of course it is not as effective against massed infantry as plasma-cannons for example, but I think it will do the trick against Grey Knights, even with halberds.

Chances are good that one unit of SG can wipe out a not fully halberd-toting unit of GKs in shooting and subsequent assault. The losses are acceptable if you make a whole unit vanish from the tabletop.

And the incoming Grey Knight fire you mentioned does not seem very scary to me. Rending templates are not a real threat, and with 2+/4+ armour, the Sanguinary Guard laughes at stormbolters, even with S5.

 

All those powerweapon attacks will be a problem. though. Still, I think that if two units of SG work together to kill a 10 men unit GK in shooting and assault, it will be worth it. The remaining halberds won't be sufficient enough to stop the annihilation of said GK units after some a round of plasma and melta shooting.

 

Oh, and of course a Librarian will be needed to shut down those nasty psychic powers such as hammerhand, quickening and what else.

 

 

Then, I don't play pure Sanguinary Guard. If I did, I'd probably know more about the tactics on the tabletop, rather than only on the paper. One thing is certain, though. I'd never say pure SG can't be competitive. It is my belief that every army can be competitive in the right hands.

Well, except for pure rubbish lists. :)

 

Snorri

[Brother_Byhlli]

(a unit of 10 with halberds being just above half the cost of 2 units of Sanguinary Guard decked with Plasma Pistols)

 

Heh. This line made me smile, after I spent about a confused minute parsing it and finally realised you're saying that a unit with 10 halberds costs a little more than a unit of Sanguinary Guard with pistols... :)

[DV8]

(a unit of 10 with halberds being just above half the cost of 2 units of Sanguinary Guard decked with Plasma Pistols)

 

Heh. This line made me smile, after I spent about a confused minute parsing it and finally realised you're saying that a unit with 10 halberds costs a little more than a unit of Sanguinary Guard with pistols... :(

 

What can I say? I have a way with words. :P

 

I was merely illustrating that it would take the equivalent of almost double the points cost to kill a unit of 10 Purifiers with firepower, and that's assuming perfect conditions (100% hits and wounds, and the Purifiers are caught in the open). Alas statistically 10 Sanguinary Guard with Plasma Pistols (an unlikely combination/kitout, ridiculously inefficient, expensive, and not at all an all-comers unit you saturate your army with) will average 6.67 hits, and from there 5.56 wounds. If the Purifiers are in cover, only 2.53 wounds will actually go through (round up for benefit of the doubt) your 500 point units (not counting close combat upgrades) just killed 3 Purifiers (with halberds, a grand total of 84 points).

 

Even assuming you manage to kill 5 of them and charge in, 5 Purifiers with Halberds strike back with 10 attacks at Initiative 6. They'll go after 1 squad, inflicting 5 hits and 2.5 wounds (round up to 3). That's 180 points dead, before you wipe out the rest of the squad, and now your 7-8 Sanguinary Guard are left twiddling their thumbs as the rest of the Grey Knight army descends.

 

...

Then, I don't play pure Sanguinary Guard. If I did, I'd probably know more about the tactics on the tabletop, rather than only on the paper. One thing is certain, though. I'd never say pure SG can't be competitive. It is my belief that every army can be competitive in the right hands.

Well, except for pure rubbish lists.

 

Snorri

 

That's like saying you know how to drive a car well, when all you've done is read a couple books or pamphlets on it.

 

Try playing a pure Sanguinary Guard army against a variety of good opponents and you come back and tell me you still think they're a competitive list (competitive = tournament style, anything else I consider casual). Your theory-hammer falls apart when I'm telling you, after playing with them for over a year, that they lack the crucial elements needed to make an army work competitively (lack of sufficient bodies to absorb wounds and an inability to field any firepower with a range greater than 12").

 

Even allowing for you to take non-SG characters (that is, taking a Librarian in addition with Dante for Blood Lance) doesn't improve the situation much (Blood Lance will average 14" on 4 dice), because that's 1 shot, from 1 model (and again, you lack numbers to sufficiently protect him. One protracted round of shooting against him and his unit will probably kill him (and there goes your psychic defense buffer as well).

 

 

DV8

[SnorriSnorrison]

I was merely illustrating that it would take the equivalent of almost double the points cost to kill a unit of 10 Purifiers with firepower, and that's assuming perfect conditions (100% hits and wounds, and the Purifiers are caught in the open). Alas statistically 10 Sanguinary Guard with Plasma Pistols (an unlikely combination/kitout, ridiculously inefficient, expensive, and not at all an all-comers unit you saturate your army with) will average 6.67 hits, and from there 5.56 wounds. If the Purifiers are in cover, only 2.53 wounds will actually go through (round up for benefit of the doubt) your 500 point units (not counting close combat upgrades) just killed 3 Purifiers (with halberds, a grand total of 84 points).

 

Even assuming you manage to kill 5 of them and charge in, 5 Purifiers with Halberds strike back with 10 attacks at Initiative 6. They'll go after 1 squad, inflicting 5 hits and 2.5 wounds (round up to 3). That's 180 points dead, before you wipe out the rest of the squad, and now your 7-8 Sanguinary Guard are left twiddling their thumbs as the rest of the Grey Knight army descends.

 

...

Then, I don't play pure Sanguinary Guard. If I did, I'd probably know more about the tactics on the tabletop, rather than only on the paper. One thing is certain, though. I'd never say pure SG can't be competitive. It is my belief that every army can be competitive in the right hands.

Well, except for pure rubbish lists. :blush:

 

Snorri

 

That's like saying you know how to drive a car well, when all you've done is read a couple books or pamphlets on it.

 

Try playing a pure Sanguinary Guard army against a variety of good opponents and you come back and tell me you still think they're a competitive list (competitive = tournament style, anything else I consider casual). Your theory-hammer falls apart when I'm telling you, after playing with them for over a year, that they lack the crucial elements needed to make an army work competitively (lack of sufficient bodies to absorb wounds and an inability to field any firepower with a range greater than 12").

 

Even allowing for you to take non-SG characters (that is, taking a Librarian in addition with Dante for Blood Lance) doesn't improve the situation much (Blood Lance will average 14" on 4 dice), because that's 1 shot, from 1 model (and again, you lack numbers to sufficiently protect him. One protracted round of shooting against him and his unit will probably kill him (and there goes your psychic defense buffer as well).

 

 

DV8

At first, I apologise for being absent over the last days - work and social life kickin' in.

 

As I said, if I knew....although driving a car is really easy. :)

 

I just can't imagine that short range firesupport is so inferior to long-ranged weapons. You don't need to decimate every squad below half strength before the charge. I think(again, my imagination) that a few plasma wounds will be sufficient against most PA targets, even GK. And all of those halberds get expensive(safe for Purifiers) very quickly so I doubt every squad will be toting 8 and two Hammers, psibolt ammunition and whatnot. And what, that are 8 Halberd attacks from each squad. Two wounds in the end, assuming no GK got shot in the shooting phase. Not very scary(I don't like Mathhammer very much, though. It only represents what is most likely to happen in the majority of cases and has no meaning for the individual gamer)

And *if* Dante is along with the squad, you have a chance that the GKs will be hitting on 5s. Oh, and of course there will be more dead GK in the shooting phase.

 

 

Of course this is based on pure theory, but that's what I think. In my games against GK, I've always found it easy to stay in cover with my smaller, precious units(such as SG) in case some rending templates/shots hit me. In 3 games, no member of the Sanguinary Guard fell to Stormbolter fire(with S5) and if GK really use massed SB fire to decimate enemy units, they will have a tough game against SG.

 

 

Maybe we should end this debate here. There is no win in this, just endless walls of text. Going to paint some stuff instead. :)

 

 

Snorri