Dark Angels

[TheAvengingKnee]

I have a friend who has started playing DA, He is using 4 squads of the Deathwing termies , I have tried allot of different things to kill them but I just can't find anything that can do much damage, Ive tried spamming plasma cannons and laz cannons I managed 3 wounds total on them(during the entire game). I honestly just don't know what to field to have a chance, I tried fielding land raiders to help protect troops but they spend most of the game shaken from the thunder hammers, I tried rhinos and razorbacks but those just disappeared and the troops inside were next, I tried using no vehicles(or very limited) and the troops never managed to wound. Any idea what I can do?

[AustonT]

I have successfully countered the wolfwing by dismounting my troops in front of my razor backs and preds(1 Baals, 2 Dakka) and shooting the farm. Because you were talking about THs I assume your opponents runs a bunch of 2+3+ and the answer to that is more shooting. It's great to have weapons that force invuls but if the invulnerable is a 3+ anyway your wading your time. I ran a vindi in that tourney that knocked down 4 termawolves but the other 15 odd and priest in TDA went down to shooting and non powerweapon assaults.

[SamaNagol]

You have to roll Storm Shield terminators over with buckets of Dice. Weight of fire.

[Morollan]

If they're in transports, disable those asap and force them to footslog. Then roll as many dice as possible to shoot them down. Doesn't have to be AP1 or 2, just more dice. It's amazing the number of times you think "It's only a storm bolter" and then your opponent rolls that dreaded 1 on the saving throw.

 

Once you've whittled them down with shooting, assault them with the DC and see yet more buckets of dice force even more saves.

[Leonaides]

plasma guns are your friends here... If he isn't running lots of th/ss terms then you could bounce him with sang guard and a priest- a 5++ save will only save so many wounds... Focus fire on one unit at a time, take a few naked or near naked combat squads to use as speed-bump/ sacrificial units and you should do ok. Will reply better later.

[JamesI]

The way to beat Deathwing as mentioned is weight of fire. Now that they have the new 3+ stormshields, you have to beat them through lots of wounds breaking their armor/invul.

 

It is essential to quickly break the transports, which means mobile meltas (I prefer attack bikes, but land speeders work here too). Once these units have killed the transports, anything they provide is a bonus. Especially if the Deathwing can waste a turn assaulting them.

 

Units like HG/SG/VV with lots of power weapons work great here. Better to cause invul saves than armor saves.

 

Astorath is a great HQ for fighting Deathwing. s6 power weapon that forces rerolls to successful invul saves, yes please!

[SevenExxes]

DEATH COMPANY~!!

[Xenith]

Weight of fire doesnt work, as with an apoc, they get FnP also.

 

A death company model, with power weapon on the charge with a chaplain, will on average kill a TH/SS termie. DW units are only 5 max, this is their weakness. 6 DC w/ 6xpw+ chaplain will roll over every single unit they have.

 

There is also Astorath, he wounds on the 2+, and makes them reroll the 3++, but he is liable to be ID'd.

[Bartali]

Weight of fire doesnt work, as with an apoc, they get FnP also.

 

That's only the one squad. Weight of fire is way to go, either by shooting or assaulting. My preference would be multi-assaults with Jumpers. BA are fast and go before DW in CC - use this to your advantage.

[SamaNagol]

A death company model, with power weapon on the charge with a chaplain, will on average kill a TH/SS termie. DW units are only 5 max, this is their weakness. 6 DC w/ 6xpw+ chaplain will roll over every single unit they have.

 

I should hope so cos that unit is 340 without a transport.

[breng77]

I agree with most of what has been said, what Deathwing Fear most are rolling lots of saves, for BA the easiest way to do this is in the assault with either DC or Assault Marines backed by a priest + a chaplain or libby in either squad (10 standard DC with Chaplain/lemartes if you want) IF you charge will get 40 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s with rerolls for both, this is an average of 31 wounds which should squad wipe the termies on average.

[SamaNagol]

A Chaplain or a Librarian with Unleash is essential if you want to assault the DW.

 

Also, if he is running 4 squads, I am assuming he is footslogging? Cos with Belial that's about 1200pts already.

[AbusePuppy]

It will depend a lot on what kind of army you are running. I assume you are facing down squads of TH/SS with Cyclone Missiles in each squad, which is common; if there are "merely" regular Terminators, any kind of Power Weapon will do a lot of damage to them (such as on your Sarges, Priests, HQs, etc.)

 

If you have a jumper army, multiassaults are your friend. You can outmaneuver him, so seek to engage one of his Terminator squads with two, three, or even four Assault Squads- a 2+ save is nice, but when you're taking 30+ wounds, it simply won't hold. Softening fire from Meltaguns, Bolt Pistols, etc, can also help here. Also remember Deathwing are Fearless, so he will have to make No Retreat saves if you win. Hopefully you will kill him on the charge, allowing you to consolidate back away from him and potentially avoid an engagement; if not, use one squad to "screen" your others, making sure to protect your Priests, and then re-charge again when it comes back to your turn. If he avoids engaging you and stays in a big clump, spread out with your superior mobility and take all the objectives except the one he's sitting on; if he moves to fight for for them, you can refocus your forces faster than him.

 

Shooting-based armies have it easier, as our vehicles being Fast makes it very difficult to catch them. LasPlas Razors will be absolute hell on his units, even if they have Storm Shields; Assault Cannons will likewise be a pain for him. Due to his weak shooting, Land Speeders (especially Typhoons) can actually do a significant amount of damage despite lacking AP2. Just make sure to keep moving and shooting him; if at all possible, keep a front line of vehicles that moved 7-12" between you and him so that he can't do too much damage even if he charges. As with other BA armies, mobility is your big advantage, so use it. Contest his objective, claim the others for yourself, and keep outside of that 12" danger zone where possible.

 

Death Company are pretty reasonable against DA, but it's important to remember that they are A, hard to deliver (you need a transport, generally a Stormraven) and B, mostly uncontrollable once set loose. They are devastating when they charge with a Chaplain, but when charged themselves they are less impressive (though still not bad.) They are a powerful "hammer" unit, but DA's hammers are more deadly still, so be careful how you use them. Power Weapons and Fists should be kept down to avoid bloating the squad excessively- one per three or four members is probably sufficient.

[Xenith]

A death company model, with power weapon on the charge with a chaplain, will on average kill a TH/SS termie. DW units are only 5 max, this is their weakness. 6 DC w/ 6xpw+ chaplain will roll over every single unit they have.

 

I should hope so cos that unit is 340 without a transport.

 

It's all relative, look at what other have been suggesting: Decked out RAS squads with priests in tow +/- librarians - that's pushing 350 to 400pts right there.

 

Again, I stand by my previous point that simple weight of fire will not cut it, you need to go in rocking lots of pw attacks.

 

Point in case: An assault marine, assuming within 6" of a priest: 1/2 to hit, 2/3 to wound, 1/6 fail save, 3 attacks = 3/18 = 1/6. 6 of your assault marines will kill one terminator. On the charge. 120pts of models kills 43 pts of model. With the other dudes in the squad having less attacks due to melta guns, the serge's power weapon has a 8/18 chance of killing another (1/2hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 SS save), so you're looking at 2 dead guys. Then they attack back with 6 thunder hammers, 3 hit, 2 or 3 kill. They draw/win combat, then destroy you utterly next turn.

 

As abuse puppy says, you need to gang up on them with 2+ units, but ultimately, youre using 500pts+ of your army to take out 245 of theirs. Use your speed, isolate sections, then roll up a flank.

[EPK]

A death company model, with power weapon on the charge with a chaplain, will on average kill a TH/SS termie. DW units are only 5 max, this is their weakness. 6 DC w/ 6xpw+ chaplain will roll over every single unit they have.

 

I should hope so cos that unit is 340 without a transport.

 

It's all relative, look at what other have been suggesting: Decked out RAS squads with priests in tow +/- librarians - that's pushing 350 to 400pts right there.

 

I even go as far to say 350 points really isn't that bad if they will indeed "roll over every single unit they have". You've made your points back if you can just roll through 1.5 squads - or just 1 with Belial, though that squad is bound to have the FNP and +1 attack from the banner.

 

However, I also still agree with weight of fire.

[thade]

Weight. Of. Fire.

 

Just be thankful they can't play wound allocation games like Nobz or Paladins. <3

[Drachnon]

I'd also have to agree with weight of fire. Forcing lots of saves is better in this case then 1 or 2 ap 1/2 hits.

You could look into Baal preds with heavy bolter sponsons, which can move 6 and still shoot allowing it to move away from the terminators if needed. (145 points)

Stormravens can also produce a lot of shots with the right setup: twin heavy bolter, twin assault cannon, hurricane sponsons. (230 points)

 

5 devastators with 4 heavy bolters should also do pretty well (130 points).

 

For troops you could take normal tacticals with a plasma gun, lascannon, lightning claw (205 points) combat squad so lascannon can focus on transports.

 

For elites 5 Sternguard with combi plasma is 150 points, at range they can fire hellfire for the increased chance to wound and when they come within 12" you unleash 12 plasma shots, just the threat of the latter should make your opponent rethink coming close to them. You can add a lightning claw for ignoring armor in close combat and added chance to wound.

 

For HQ, I'm not sure what would be best, I guess Sanguinor has in theory the best qualities to deal with them (inv save + eternal warrior), if you don't want special characters you'll probably be best of with a Reclusiarch attached to honour guard. Either on foot or with jump packs depending on your preference. (250-350 points depending on equipment).

[thade]

Think on it this way. At best, each model has a 2+ save. Most have only one wound. Every six wounds you force on his units to roll saves for, he's likely to roll a one. The unit(s) with FNP get a second shot (half of the guys that roll those ones will still be okay) but eventually he'll fail those saves too. Bring as many guns as you can.

 

Like, the one tournament I did the best in I literally spammed troops. No tanks, other than a few Rhinos and an LRC. 2500 points of tacticals, assault teams, a sternguard, and devastators. 80+ marines. People had trouble killing that many marines. :)

[SamaNagol]

Lemartes and 5 DC with 2 PW and a Fist coming out of a Stormraven will statistically wipe out a 5 man TH/SS squad on the charge even with Lemartes in 'normal mode'

 

You lose 4 DC in the process though. A fair trade.

[TheAvengingKnee]

Based on what I read so far in this thread this is what I am thinking of trying, use the SR to deliver the death company troops to their targets hopefully at the same time, use the assault squads to hit the guards on objectives in groups or to harass his vehicles, as well as using the speeders to kill his vehicles and help clear non-termies off objectives. I am thinking about keeping the army in reserve to minimize the effectiveness of Deathwing Assault and either have him try to counter deep strike me or have him drop in with nothing to fight turn 1. Any advice would be helpful or Ideas on what I could change.

 

1 Stormraven Gunship (Heavy Support) @ 245 Pts

#Power of the Machine Spirit; Locator Beacon; 2 Hurricane Bolter Sponsons;

TL Assault Cannon; Twin-linked Multi-Melta; Bloodstrike Missiles (x4)

 

1 Chaplain (Elites) @ 100 Pts

Crozius Arcanum; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Rosarius

 

1 Librarian (HQ) @ 100 Pts

#Psychic Hood; Unleash Rage; The Blood Lance; Bolt Pistol (x1); Force

Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Psyker

 

10 Death Company (Troops) @ 200 Pts

Bolt Pistol (x1); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

 

1 Stormraven Gunship (Heavy Support) @ 245 Pts

#Power of the Machine Spirit; Locator Beacon; 2 Hurricane Bolter Sponsons;

TL Assault Cannon; Twin-linked Multi-Melta; Bloodstrike Missiles (x4)

 

10 Death Company (Troops) @ 200 Pts

Bolt Pistol (x1); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

 

1 Astorath the Grim (HQ) @ 220 Pts

#Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol; The Executioner's Axe; Frag Grenades; Krak

Grenades; Rosarius; Jump Pack

 

4 Assault Squad (Troops) @ 115 Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW (x3); Infernus Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak

Grenades; Jump Packs

 

1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [28] Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Packs

 

4 Assault Squad (Troops) @ 115 Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW (x3); Infernus Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak

Grenades; Jump Packs

 

1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [28] Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Packs

 

4 Assault Squad (Troops) @ 115 Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW (x3); Infernus Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak

Grenades; Jump Packs

 

1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [28] Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Packs

 

4 Assault Squad (Troops) @ 115 Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW (x3); Infernus Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak

Grenades; Jump Packs

 

1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [28] Pts

Bolt Pistol & CCW; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Packs

 

0 Land Speeder Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 100 Pts

 

1 Land Speeder Typhoon @ [100] Pts

Multi-Melta; Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

0 Land Speeder Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 100 Pts

 

1 Land Speeder Typhoon @ [100] Pts

Multi-Melta; Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

Models in Army: 47

 

 

Total Army Cost: 1970

[SamaNagol]

Astorath is a huge outlay of points for someone who is only realistically going to kill 1 SS Terminator on the charge.

 

That's the same as normal mode Lemartes will kill, and he cannot be targeted back for 70pts less.

[Interrogator Stobz]

As a DW player I fear your Furioso Dreads that pod next to my dudes (that aren't in vehicles) and frag cannon/heavy flamer the whole unit, it makes castleing up dangerous for me.

 

That dread may get toasted by us by the end of turn one but it has drawn a tonne of fire that isn't at your SRs and other transports.

 

Against a BA army I need to castle to be able to support each unit in CC, as although very good at CC we are susceptable to losing any battle of attrition.

 

Eg. your DC unit mentioned above (200pts) will kill about 3-4 DW on the charge, we will then gang up on that DC unit and wipe it out. BUT we need to use 2-3 units (at 235pts each) to achieve that quickly and can't shoot other units with our CMLs while we do.

 

Also remember that trying to out typhoon us is a fail, 225pts buys us three ;) and we don't care about 2x AP3 shots of any strength.(we don't like the MM but that's what our 3++ are for ;) )

 

A BA friend of mine out termyed me by taking shooty 'nators and sitting at 13-24", plenty of SB shots eventually do the trick vs my mixed units that are masters of no particular phase.

 

Also I hate his Termy Epistolary with SS, the rerolls of his S10 attacks at I5 are punishing, he kills Belial every game with this guy :) .

 

Anyway, enough support for the opposition, enjoy.

 

s

[TheAvengingKnee]

Actually the Speeders with missiles were just to help kill vehicles since there will be a few on the field and once they are gone, the MM is in to give a goo shot at AV 13+ targets rather than glancing attempts, after vehicles are dead the frag missile is still 2 blasts and could still cause a few wounds, especially on non-termie units.

[appiah4]

Spam 10 man Tactical Terminators with 2 CMLs each. Add a priest to all 3. That's about 1,500 pts. (60 bolter, 12 krak shots on the march with 2+/5++ FNP will make them WEEP.) Then add some Baal Predators.

 

They'll shoot them dead well enough.

 

For example, 1995 pts:

 

Librarian 100

Shield of Sanguinus

Shackle Soul

 

Tactical Squad 250

5 Extra Marines

Combi-Plasma

Plasmagun

Plasma Cannon

Rhino

 

Tactical Squad 240

5 Extra Marines

Combi-Plasma

Plasmagun

Multi-Melta

Rhino

 

Terminator Squad 460

5 Extra Terminators

Cyclone ML

Cyclone ML

 

Terminator Squad 460

5 Extra Terminators

Cyclone ML

Cyclone ML

 

Sanguinary Priest 50

 

Sanguinary Priest 50

 

Baal Predator 145

Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

Baal Predator 145

Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

Predator 100

Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

Fight fire with fire. Alternatively replace Plasma Cannon for a Multi Melta in the Tactical Squad and a chainfist in both Terminator squads.

 

EDIT: Forgot to have some troops in there :)

[The Crimson Cartel]

I've a buddy who runs DA, most often in Deathwing config. He runs combos of termie units,some with thss, some with claws. Much to his dismay, and my everlasting amusement, my favorite tactic against him is to run a couple of talon furiosos at his claw groups. (Specifically at the one including Belial.) :) Even if it takes a while for the termies to go down, they still get tied up, allowing me to focus on other targets. We usually play lower point levels where he can't afford lots of raiders ,so that helps. Other than that, I'm in agreement with pretty much everyone else. Get em footslogging, then throw lots of dice and templates at em.

 

-CC