An assault ends during the Movement phase...?

[dswanick]

Why do you keep neglecting the fact that you can consolidate when a unit's opponents are all destroyed, not just if they fell back? Otherwise you're saying that, if you wipe out an enemy in close combat, you cannot consolidate.

I'm not neglecting it. It's in my intial post, perhaps you would care to re-read it. It's towards the bottom.

@dswanick

The list you provide is not necessarily exhaustive. (We've been over this.)

I didn't provide the list, it was provided to me - I simply pointed out that all the points in the list either specifically allow consolidate or are so vague as to be indeterminate.

Combat is not clearly differentiated from locked in combat or base-to-base contact. (We've been over this.)

And yet the Assault Phase summary is well defined, and it gives a clear indication of when you are allowed to consolidate.

The Consolidate rule (previously cited) states that you get to consolidate when you were previously locked in combat and your enemies have been destroyed.

As part of one step in The Assault Phase process, not at any time outside of the Assault Phase. That's the part that you are making up.

[*] Adding conjecture and complexity does the counter-point no service. (We've also been over this.)

Then stop adding the conjecture that "combat" has some deep, hidden meaning that's never been printed in any edition of Warhammer 40,000. And stop trying to make the Shooting Phase rules more complex than they are written.

 

As I said a few posts ago : I'm not trying to win hearts or minds here. This is how I see it, and as the rules are vague, at best, you are welcome to see it a different way.

[thade]

I'm going to respectfully ask that you chill out, dood. If you don't intend to be heated, know that you're coming across as such.

 

I hear, "Show me where it says that combat is meaningful outside of the Assault phase."

I say, "It prevents my guys from moving or shooting outside of the Assault phase."

 

I hear, "Combat and Locked in Combat are different."

I say, "One is being stuck in the other; if you're stuck in it, you're in it."

 

I hear, "Combat takes place only in the Assault phase."

I say, "Then why does it prevent my models from moving and shooting?"

 

I hear, "Because they're locked in combat."

I say, "Because they're locked in combat."

 

I have yet to see definitive proof that a "combat" is a thing that starts and ends with each Assault Phase. It could just as easily be interpreted that "combat" begins upon the charge (during an Assault phase) and persists until it ends, whenever that may be. Certainly it typically ends in the Assault phase, but I see no reason combat can't end when a template scatters in and clears out one side of the conflict.

 

As Dan VK said, we call this an impasse.

[timmytool]

@dswanick

• The list you provide is not necessarily exhaustive. (We've been over this.)
  
• Combat is not clearly differentiated from locked in combat or base-to-base contact. (We've been over this.)
  
• The Consolidate rule (previously cited) states that you get to consolidate when you were previously locked in combat and your enemies have been destroyed. A scattered template and a Callidus can both make this happen. (We've been over this.)
  
• Adding conjecture and complexity does the counter-point no service. (We've also been over this.)
  

Still sold. Surprised you're not, honestly.

 

EDIT: Clarification. Formatting. Punctuation.

 

second point, combat might not be defined but "locked in combat" is and so is "engaged" and "Base-to-base contact" is not a term but ether way haw can locked in combat and engaged (the one spot were base to base contact is used almost like a term) be "not clearly differentiated" from a third term that is not used interchangeably, in fact "combat" is used in quite a different fashion to locked in combat.

 

third point, the consolidation rule says no such thing as you clam. the consolidation rules are a list of conditions (I previously thought it was 2 but I missed one) that if all satisfied will allow a may affect. the 3 conditions are:

• At the end of Combat,
  
• if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed of falling back,
  
• so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy,
  

they may consolidate.

 

so first and foremost it must be "at the end of combat" if its not at the end of combat then no other conditions being true will allow the consolidation.

 

the units opponents must all be falling back or have been destroyed.

 

and of those 2 conditions have not denied the possibility of the rule affecting them then they must victorious(aka you must have gone threw the "determine assault results" ?sub-phase? which is the the only way to be declared winning, later described as victors and winning unit in the sweeping advance rules) and must not posses the "locked in combat" attribute.

 

The last limiting condition does knock out some units from consolidating the one scenario I know this comes into affect is when versing a C:SM unit and it losses the combat, fails its leadership test and then is out rolled in the sweeping advance roll and are then saved by their ATSKNF(C:SM p51) the opponent unit is a ork unit.

tick it's at the end of combat

tick the ork's opponents are all falling back (C:SM ATSKNF does not change this)

cross while the ork unit is victorious it is still "locked in combat" with the space marines theirs the brakes.

 

so for our 2 scenarios at argument (assassin and scattered template)

the freed unit fail the conditions for consolidations twice

• both scenarios are not occurring at the end of combat (losing a attribute with "combat" as one of the words of its name does not constitute as combat)
  
• both scenarios the freed units are not classified as winners/victors ( thought they might get a medal of luck and are no longer "locked in combat" but part marks dont count in this test)
  

 

so how did you justify that you get to consolidate when you were previously locked in combat and your enemies have been destroyed?

please address all 3 conditions to clam the rules benefits.

 

I have yet to see definitive proof that a "combat" is a thing that starts and ends with each Assault Phase. It could just as easily be interpreted that "combat" begins upon the charge (during an Assault phase) and persists until it ends, whenever that may be. Certainly it typically ends in the Assault phase, but I see no reason combat can't end when a template scatters in and clears out one side of the conflict.

 

Using your logic for who combat works (does not ever end until all the opponents are falling back or destroyed which does not take into account C:SM ATSKNF) after the charge if any model is not engaged then they can never be engaged as

Work out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change untill its end, but casualties may make it difficult to remenber as a fight continues, especially in a large combat.

[thade]

Plain and simple.

 

If combat doesn't end when the other unit dies or flees...then when does it end? If it ends with each Assault phase, how are my marines still "locked in it"? Combat begins with the charge and ends with one side being destroyed or running away. It potentially ends each Assault phase (hence the calculation of combat resolution to see if anybody runs/gets Swept). Nothing says it can't end in another phase.

 

I hear, "But nothing says that it can end in another phase!".

I say, "Then when does it end?"

 

EDIT: Clarification (added more).

[timmytool]

Plain and simple.

 

If combat doesn't end when the other unit dies or flees...then when does it end? If it ends with each Assault phase, how are my marines still "locked in it"? Combat begins with the charge and ends with one side being destroyed or running away. It potentially ends each Assault phase (hence the calculation of combat resolution to see if anybody runs/gets Swept). Nothing says it can't end in another phase.

 

I hear, "But nothing says that it can end in another phase!".

I say, "Then when does it end?"

 

EDIT: Clarification (added more).

 

First off "combat" ends when it is resolved, (which are started anew each assault phase)"... completing each combat before moving onto the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved"(sound familiar it should BRB p34).

 

They are "Locked in combat" because this is what RAW stated on page 35, it does not however say they are currently "in a unresolved combat".

 

no the assault phase begins with a unit charging and ends when all combats are completed(including results like falling back or being destroyed)

 

Combat does not "potentially" end every assault phase it "does" end/complete/resolve every assault phase.

 

I'll grant you no were does it say combat cant end in another phase but no were does it say it can ether, it does say combats are resolved then completed before the next combat is resolved in the assault phase but (BRB p34).

[thade]

If combat ends, then how am I still locked in it?

 

Combat potentially ends in the Assault phase as the enemies may flee or be destroyed, but it sometimes doesn't end; i.e. you remain locked in it, to continue it in the next Assault phase. The key word there is "continue" and not "begin again".

[Seahawk]

How about this one: "If units are still locked in close combat, then any models not engaged are moved towards the enemy to continue the fight next turn." (p.33)

 

...or these:

 

"If both sides suffer the same number of wounds, the combat is drawn and continues next turn." (p.39)

 

"Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault)." (p.63)

 

 

Do these not indicate that a combat (not locked in combat) can continue past the end of the assault phase? Why not? Otherwise what's the point of saying "continues" and "ongoing?"

[thade]

...pure money...

 

Do these not indicate that a combat (not locked in combat) can continue past the end of the assault phase? Why not? Otherwise what's the point of saying "continues" and "ongoing?"

They do to me. :)

[Seahawk]

Well I don't care about you, thade :cuss :).

 

I want to know how these holes can be poked to further my own understanding. If they cannot be poked...well...

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I have to ask Dswanick and timmytool a question.

 

 

I have a terminator squad charge a few boys. We fight in my phase and then his. At the end of these two phases I have 1 normal Power fist terminator left Vs. 1 ork boy. There is an ork boy squad about 3" away who failed a DT test to assault the terminator.

 

I shoot a whirlwind into the near by boy squad and it scatters onto combat.

 

The round kills the boy but my terminator survives. Presumably I do not get my consolidation.

 

However am I allowed to charge the near by boys squad with my terminator now?

[thade]

However am I allowed to charge the near by boys squad with my terminator now?

So far, everybody has agreed that the answer to this question is "yes"....

[BOBMAKENZIE]

However am I allowed to charge the near by boys squad with my terminator now?

So far, everybody has agreed that the answer to this question is "yes"....

 

Alright...so keeping in with Dswanick's and timmytool's thinking I guess I dont follow. If they are in combat until the end of the assault phase because that is the only time Combats can end. How are they able to charge...since they would be in combat still.

[timmytool]

However am I allowed to charge the near by boys squad with my terminator now?

So far, everybody has agreed that the answer to this question is "yes"....

 

Alright...so keeping in with Dswanick's and timmytool's thinking I guess I dont follow. If they are in combat until the end of the assault phase because that is the only time Combats can end. How are they able to charge...since they would be in combat still.

 

thade and co believe combat will end when the assassin kills the last opponent, my interpretation is that combat had already ended for the group last assault phase and all they loss is the "locked in combat" attribute which is what the BRB says stops the models from moving/shooting/assualting/taking moral tests.

 

While in a RL situation I would agree with thade(to varying degrees) but the way the rules are written their is a clear and present distinction between "locked in combat" and "combat" and as we know RAW does not always follow RL.

 

The way the rules are written 40k combat is more like boxing, the assault(not the assault phase) is a bout, combat is like a single round in the bout, a victor is judged at the end of each combat/round (via points)and a demoralized opponent might fall back/quit. If a spectator pulls a gun out and shoots a boxer the other boxer is not awarded a KO, he might be given a moral victory(not knowing boxing rules but I'd assume the living boxer would not receive the tittle) but it was not his actions that dispatched the other boxer. While this loose example is not perfect it might help in portraying my understanding of the rules as I see it.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

thade and co believe combat will end when the assassin kills the last opponent, my interpretation is that combat had already ended for the group last assault phase and all they loss is the "locked in combat" attribute which is what the BRB says stops the models from moving/shooting/assualting/taking moral tests.

 

 

I suppose I just dont understand how you can be locked in combat. Without well...being in combat.

 

Particularly when they have things like:

"Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight..." pg 35

 

Referencing a separate 'fight' which sounds to me as what you are thinking of combat as.

 

 

Edit: Spelling and stuff

[thade]

I suppose I just dont understand how you can be locked in combat. Without well...being in combat.

This really is the hang up.

 

This is just conjecture on my part, but stick with me: I believe the thinking that Warhammer 40k (and Fantasy, really) fit to some rigid terminology-based structure where things like combat and locked in combat are different stems from those of us who've played games like Magic The Gathering where the rules are very clearly defined, terms are very clearly defined, and there's little to no question about what's happening where (barring the occasionally wonky card).

 

Warhammer does not fit such a structure. It's based around loose wording in many, many places. At times interpretations are at best confusing and, at worst, seem almost arbitrary for the part of FAQs and Amendments. Sometimes they make sense; sometimes they do not.

 

In the absence of an FAQ, and in the light of knowledge that these rules are not written with the rigidity of more thorough (and, admittedly, smaller) rule sets, I see no reason to infer that you are not in combat when you are locked in combat. Hence, my stance on the matter. Very clearly:

 

If you are locked in combat, where are you? You are in combat.

 

That's where I stand.