Henchman Squads... and Jokaero

[Brother Landrain]

I have been toying with several Henchman squad combinations.

And I have two questions about Jokaero's that needs answered.

 

First question...

 

The rules state that you add +1 for every Jokaero beyond the first.

If you roll a 6+ roll twice, Ignoring duplicate results.

 

Now the Fact states that if you have 6, you get no benefits as the roll is always a 6.

But what does the ignoring duplicates mean?

 

Say I have 1 Jokaero, I roll a 6.

I get 2 more rolls.

I roll a 3 and a 6.

Do I get 'screwed' and lose the extra 6 or...

Do I get to reroll the 6, until I get something besides a 3 or a 6?

 

I would think I would get to reroll until I get two different results between 1 and 5.

 

So if we take 4 Jokaero.

When we roll the dice we get 3 possible outcomes..

a 4 and rending, a 5 and invuln saves or 6

Since a 6 gives us 2 upgrades, we would get both 4 and 5 .

 

Second question...

I hate that they say Jokaero have digital weapons, since the description of DigiWeapons is completely against what Jokaero have. As their weapon is definately a ranged weapon...

 

So the question is, can Jokaero move and use thier digital weapons?

The description says can be fired as a Lascannon, Multi-Melta or Heavy Flamer, but does it make them a Heavy Weapon, so no move and fire?

Or do they just use the Str/AP/Special Rules of the weapon?

 

I would think they turn into a Heavy, but its not exactly clear.

It would have been much nicer to say they have a 'Jokaero Crazy Weapon' that has 3 different profiles, and list them specifically...

 

But back to the unit ideas..

 

Since imo, any unit that has Jokaero are best served as a 'shooty' unit, our goal is to get rending.

With 4 jokaero, we get a rending on all results except a roll of 2 <_<

With Rending, the sheer number of shots that a Henchman squad can put out become very deadly to just about anything.

It also allows SB's to damage up to AV 13.

 

The 4 Jokaero are a little bit pricey at 140pts, But 4 Long Fangs with Lascannons are 175 pts.

Yes the BS is only 3 (which is minor), and T only 3(which we mitigate by using Bunkers and meatshields)t

 

Using that assumption here are a few different squads I am thinking about using.

 

+++++ INCOMING TRANSMISSION +++++

CUT-N-PASTE ARMY BUILDER ANGERS THE EMPEROR AND HIS SERVANTS.

YOU WILL MAKE THE EFFORT TO REMOVE COPYRIGHT-INFRINGING DETAIL

OR BE SENT TO THE ARCH-INTERROGATOR.

YOU WILL MAKE THE EFFORT TO RENDER YOUR ARMY LIST ENTRIES READABLE.

LAZINESS IS A FLAW THE FAITHFUL SHALL ROOT OUT.

+++++ END TRANSMISSION +++++

 

Firebase Charlie (13#, 261 pts)

. . 1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 251 pts

. . . . 4 Jokaero Weaponsmith

. . . . 8 Warrior Acolyte Storm Bolter

. . . . 1 Inquisitorial Chimera Heavy Bolterx 2;Hunter-killer Missile

Tactics:

Firebase Charlie use the Chimera as a Bunker to start the game.

The 4 Jokaero Fire from the Chimera using Lascannons.

The Chimera may use its HK for Anti-Tank and the 2xHB for anti-Personell

When Enemy units get within 24" The squad may disembark and unleashes Stormbolters.

 

Firebase Romeo (13#, 317 pts)

. . 1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 317 pts

. . . . 2 Crusader

. . . . 4 Jokaero Weaponsmith

. . . . 6 Warrior Acolyte Storm Bolter

. . . . 1 Razorback Hunter-killer Missile; Psybolt Ammunition; Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

Tactics:

Firebase Romeo starts disembarked, ideally within cover.

The two crusaders are used to provide 3++ saves.

The Razorbacks are used as seperate firebase units, With 6 shots at 24" and the HK for anti-tank

 

Firebase India (13#, 290 pts)

. . 1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 290 pts

. . . . 3 Inquisitorial Servitor Plasma Cannon

. . . . 4 Jokaero Weaponsmith

. . . . 4/5 Warrior Acolyte Storm Bolter x1

. . . . 1 Inquisitorial Chimera Heavy Bolter; Multilaser

Tactics:

This squad requires an Inquisitor to be effective, and use the Chimera Bunker.

Firebase India may use the Chimera as a Bunker.

The 4 Jokaero Fire from the using Lascannons.

The 3 Servitor Fire their Plasma Cannons... with Str 7 Rending AP2 Templates, who cares about BS 3 :tu:

When Enemy units get within 24" you get a lot of SB shots.

 

Firebase Rio Bravo (11#, 284 pts)

. . 1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 263 pts

. . . . 4 Jokaero Weaponsmith

. . . . 3 Warrior Acolyte Meltagun x1; Storm Bolter x1

. . . . 3 Warrior Acolyte Storm Bolter

. . . . 1 Rhino Hunter-killer Missile; Psybolt Ammunition; Storm Bolter

 

Tactics:

Firebase Rio Bravo uses the Rhino as a Bunker.

Only Two may fire using the firepoints, instead of 5 like the Chimera, but it has advantages in BS, and Fortitude.

There are 3 acolytes with a SB and a Meltagun, for any needed anti-tank punch.

 

Firebase Papa (13#, 285 pts)

. . 1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 285 pts

. . . . 4 Jokaero Weaponsmith

. . . . 8 Psyker

. . . . 1 Inquisitorial Chimera Hunter-killer Missile; Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter

 

Firebase Papa use the Chimera as a Bunker to start the game.

The 4 Jokaero Fire from the Chimera using Lascannons.

The Chimera may use its HK for Anti-Tank and the 2xHB for anti-Personell

the Psykers turn the Chimera into a 36" Range Vindicator.. STR 10 AP 1 Large Blast

[Reclusiarch Darius]

First of all, way too much detail. I would suggest deleting all that Army Builder stuff, because:

 

A: It hurts my eyes :D

 

and

 

B: GW copyright might not like it

 

Now, as to your rules question, yes if you take more than 5 Jokaero, you are stuck in an infinite loop which the FAQ clarifies as 'you dunce, don't take so many if you want Inconcievable Customisation to work'. So, don't take 5. Take like 2, thats enough of an investment and you have good odds of getting that 6 for a re-roll (although further 6's will not cause a re-roll, you just don't get any benefit).

 

Because I'm lazy (and sensitive eyes), I'm just going to post my preferred builds. Hopefully one or more appeals to you;

 

HQ:

 

Coteaz

(100 points)

 

Every day, all day. If you want Henchmen, Coteaz is your man. Don't listen to those who say 'no, take the generic guy with Communion'

 

Librarian w/warding stave, 'Might', 'Quicksilver', 'Shrouding', 'Sanctuary'

(205 points)

 

He joins your Death-Cult unit and makes them super-awesome. Warding stave means he doesn't die whilst doing so.

 

Elites:

 

Tech-Marine w/conversion beamer, 3 x servo-skulls

(119 points)

 

Yes yes, I know, 'Mindlock' will still affect servitors with him (although you can just attached Coteaz to solve that problem). On the plus side though, 'ATSKNF' is pretty cool

 

Troops:

 

3 x plasma cannon servitors, 2 x Jokaero, Chimera w/multi-laser+heavy bolter

(185 points)

 

Wrecks infantry hard (especially with nearby servo-skulls to the target), Jokaero gives you their benefits, Chimera gives them a bunker and more anti-infantry dakka. Put Tech-Marine with these guys at maximum range, pummel tanks with conversion beamer and lascannon.

 

10 x Death-Cult Assassins

(150 points)

 

Cheap, hits like a tonne of bricks, Librarian makes them rip through Dreadnoughts with ease. Place in Redeemer, point n click.

 

(2) 3 x Henchmen w/meltaguns, Razorback w/lascannon+twin plasma gun

(119 points each)

 

Assuming that Landraider rolled through the Tech-Marine+friends, send these guys in to kill it. Best part is, when the super-nasty assault unit piles out, you can douse them in twin plasma gun. Early on, they can contribute with the lascannon.

 

(2) 3 x Henchmen w/plasma guns, Razorback w/lascannon+twin plasma gun

(119 points)

 

Marines at this point are begging for mercy, because units less than half their typical squad cost are obliterating their elite infantry. Don't show them any. Sure, overheats will kill a few, but the important thing is, you just slagged a whole Terminator/Tactical squad. Monsters also hate you, because their fancy armour and Feel No Pain means precisely nothing (sorry Tyranids). Again, lascannon contribution at the start of the game.

 

Heavy Support:

 

Landraider Redeemer w/pintle multi-melta

(255 points)

 

Solves the lack of nades on your Death-Cult, brings insane anti-infantry (AP3 flamers make everyone weep), and you still have twin assault cannon and multi-melta to bring to the party.

 

 

Then just add whatever takes your fancy. I consider that to be a pretty well-rounded Coteaz army. Tonnes of AP2 to make Tyranids and Marines cry, lots of long-range anti-tank for blowing up mech spam, and your Death-Cult dominate in close-combat.

[Brother Landrain]

Now, as to your rules question, yes if you take more than 5 Jokaero, you are stuck in an infinite loop which the FAQ clarifies as 'you dunce, don't take so many if you want Inconcievable Customisation to work'. So, don't take 5. Take like 2, thats enough of an investment and you have good odds of getting that 6 for a re-roll (although further 6's will not cause a re-roll, you just don't get any benefit).

The idea is to take 4.

With 4 Jokaero... you add +3 to any roll..

 

1 = 4 and rending

2 = 5 and 5++ saves

3,4,5,6 = 6+ and roll 2 more..

 

The whole point is to get rending.

The 5++ save is actually a bonus or is the unlucky roll, a 5/6 chance for rending seems very good to me.

With that MEQ with only a 2+ saves auto-die, Feel No Pain is negated, and you get a very good chance at wounding even the best MC's.

[nurglez]

as per the faq.

 

Q: For each Jokaero Weaponsmith in a henchman unit

after the first, you add +1 to the Inconeivable

Customisation roll. Does this mean that if you have 6 or

more Jokaero in a unit, that they will receive no

bonuses (as you cannot roll less than a 6 and duplicate

rolls are ignored)? (p50)

A: Yes.

 

So if you take four jokaero, and you roll a 3, it becomes a 6, roll twice.

you now roll a 1 and a 5, you get rending and thats it, as the 5 becomes a 6 which is ignored. so in other words, with 4 jokaero, you need to roll a 1 or a 2 otherwise you dont get any improvements...

[Brother Landrain]

as per the faq.

 

Q: For each Jokaero Weaponsmith in a henchman unit

after the first, you add +1 to the Inconeivable

Customisation roll. Does this mean that if you have 6 or

more Jokaero in a unit, that they will receive no

bonuses (as you cannot roll less than a 6 and duplicate

rolls are ignored)? (p50)

A: Yes.

 

So if you take four jokaero, and you roll a 3, it becomes a 6, roll twice.

you now roll a 1 and a 5, you get rending and thats it, as the 5 becomes a 6 which is ignored. so in other words, with 4 jokaero, you need to roll a 1 or a 2 otherwise you dont get any improvements...

 

Unfortunately the FAQ only says that since you cannot possibly roll less than 6 you get nothing.

It doesn't say that ignore duplicates means it is useless, and a wasted roll.

 

Usually, well at least in just about every other game system I know of, when you have a rule such as that you roll until you get 2 unique results.

That is why I think it needs FAQ'd

[nurglez]

duplicate rolls are ignored. So you roll a 3, which becomes a 6+, roll twice. you then roll a 4 and a 5, which becomes 2 6+, and are then ignored because they are duplicate rolls...

 

That is how I read the rule, and generally, I er on the side of caution when it comes to grey area rules, as I'd rather gain a bonus later on when they faq it, then "cheat" and gain a disputed bonus.

 

Though as I dont use henchmen at all, this issue wont come up for me ever....

[Tsuro]

My reading of "duplicate rolls are ignored" is that you wouldn't count both "sixes" and reroll four times but only use one of the results to again roll twice on the table.

 

Frankly, the "ignore duplicate results" line really needs clarification. It could equally mean that we ignore the duplicate benefit roll entirely and roll again, or just ignore the effects of the second result and only end up with one bonus.

[Brother Landrain]

My reading of "duplicate rolls are ignored" is that you wouldn't count both "sixes" and reroll four times but only use one of the results to again roll twice on the table.

 

Frankly, the "ignore duplicate results" line really needs clarification. It could equally mean that we ignore the duplicate benefit roll entirely and roll again, or just ignore the effects of the second result and only end up with one bonus.

I am glad, I am not the only one who believes this needs clarified.

 

My interpretation is that you get two benefits, but that they cannot be the same.

So, if you have say 6 Jakaero, its pointless as you always get a 6.

But if it is possible, you will always get two benefits.

So with possible rolls of 4,5,6+.. if you get a 6+ then you will always end up with 4 and 5.

 

Most people seem to want the extra 12" on their ranged weapons, so they rarely go more than 2 Jokaero,

Myself I think Rending, is much better, and with 4 Jakaero, if it is meant the way I think it is, is a 5/6 chance :P

8 Rending Stormbolters is pretty nice ;)

4 Rending Heavy Flamers ain't too shabby either ;)

[Fume]

If you a re-rolling on the chart more than once you are doing it wrong. Although it is techinically not a "re-roll" my belief is that the rule "you can never re-roll a re-roll" counts.

 

Say you roll a die, and get a 6.

Then roll those two dice and get a 5 and a 6, you do not get to roll twice more thanks to getting another 6. Nor would you get to roll once more. The rule is presented to give you one bonus, and if your lucky two.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

i take in a henchman list squad 2 jakeros and 3 plasma cannons fill in the rest with crusaders ( 3 ups for the win )

[Drachnon]

Sorry you don't get to roll until you have unique results. The optimal amount of jokearo is 2 for a 1in 27 chance of nothing.

[yperihitikos]

"Roll twice on the table..."

 

When you roll 6+ you don't roll two dice. You roll once, you keep the result and then you reroll and add the second result to the first. It is clear that twice means you roll once again the same dice. And as we all know you cannot reroll a reroll.

 

"...ignore duplicate results" means that when the result of the reroll is the same, you ignore the result of the reroll (meaning that the range can only be 12" more and never 24").

 

Everything is clear. It doesn't need any FAQ.

[Brother Landrain]

"Roll twice on the table..."

 

When you roll 6+ you don't roll two dice. You roll once, you keep the result and then you reroll and add the second result to the first. It is clear that twice means you roll once again the same dice. And as we all know you cannot reroll a reroll.

 

"...ignore duplicate results" means that when the result of the reroll is the same, you ignore the result of the reroll (meaning that the range can only be 12" more and never 24").

 

Everything is clear. It doesn't need any FAQ.

 

So with one Jockaero.. I roll a 6, then a 6, and a 6 and get nothing?

 

That pretty much goes against just about every idea in 40k...

 

This is one where the intention of the rules needs to be determined and FAQ'd, because the written is not adequate.

[uberschveinen]

No it doesn't. It's obvious. There's no ambiguity. You only ever reroll once; that is a universal rule. You ignore any duplicate result; that is explicit. This is clear and direct in saying that any time you roll a 6 and get subsequent sixes they do not count. This is contrary to neither rule nor intent nor principle, and was more or less universally accepted as the way it works since the codex itself came out. I cannot see how there is any scope to find an ambiguity that does not consist solely of 'I don't like it so it musn't be a real rule'.

[monopeludo]

No it doesn't. It's obvious. There's no ambiguity. You only ever reroll once; that is a universal rule. You ignore any duplicate result; that is explicit. This is clear and direct in saying that any time you roll a 6 and get subsequent sixes they do not count. This is contrary to neither rule nor intent nor principle, and was more or less universally accepted as the way it works since the codex itself came out. I cannot see how there is any scope to find an ambiguity that does not consist solely of 'I don't like it so it musn't be a real rule'.

Absolutelly correct. The rule is pretty clear. Ignore duplicate result. Period.

1._Roll a 6.

2._Get 2 more rolls.

3._Roll a 6.

4._Is it a duplicate roll?. Yes, see 1 and 3.

5._Ignore this roll.

 

I allways use 2 per squad. Just they weapons are great, if the bonus roll is lucky I change their roll in the field or who joins them. But they are awesome by themselves, kill AT at the begining, drive & flame infantry later. I only use them on foot when they support servitors as objective holders.

[Bodo]

I know we get the +1 for eack monkey after the first, but where does it say that the +1's are added to the reroll.

The only way it works is if the re-rolls are unadorned