how to fight OPed Grey Knights

[Commander S. Caesare]

Alright. Hello, everyone! Special greetings to those who play Chaos SM.

 

Recently, I have been slaughtered, mocked, and eviscerated by the Grey Knights for 5 games. I have a Death Guard army vying for revenge, but hell, I can't make a decent hole to give any room to fight.

 

Daemon hammers at S10 has ruined my Defilers and my fielded Nurgle units. The Dreadknights has always targeted my Dreadnoughts and tanks. And Interceptor squads just devastate my infantry. My Terminators with the meltas somewhat give me leeway, but the Nemesis weapons just cut through them like a hot knife through butter. And my HQs, especially Typhus, bless his mottled hives, just dies under Draigo's boots.

 

Is Chaos meant to lose under the reign of the Grey Knights? What could I use to utterly destroy them?

 

Brothers, there has to be a way. Or at least until the new codex comes out.

[jeffersonian000]

Play better?

 

Without something specific to work with, all anyone can say id play to your strengths while downplaying your weaknesses. GK killing you in CC? Stay out of CC. GK killing you at range, get into CC or stay outside their range.

 

What list(s) are you running? What list(s) is he running?

 

Need more info.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

Play better?

:P

 

Though the rest of his advice is basically sound. If your GK opponent is killing you in melee, stay out of melee except when necessary. If he's killing you at range, stay out of the 24" range band- or get inside the 12" range band so you put out just as much firepower as he does.

 

I'm not surprised that your HQ dies to Draigo; he's a beast in CC. Shoot down the squad he's with, you don't want to assault him while he has a lot of backup.

 

Really, Grey Knights are just Marines. They're less tough than your Plaguers. Anything that can kill your Plaguers will also kill Grey Knights and will do it better.

[DevianID]

To be fair to the 'Play better' comment, perhaps we can word things a bit differently, because 'Play better' is true. If your opponent has a list that is stronger than yours, you can use better tactics than him to still defeat him soundly. My theory is that 40k is 33% lists, 33% dice, and 33% player skill. If your list is weaker make up for it in player skill.

 

As an aside, I have been losing to a gk list, and its quite a bit more powerful than the one you mention. Draigo, Dreadknights and Interceptors, while not terrible, are not the strength of the GK book.

 

What hurts you most, IMHO, is that you are trying to play nurgle themed from the sound of it. Chaos have a good build, but again in my opinion its not nurgle themed. 1 unit of plagues is really all you need, more than that and you lose too much elsewhere--especially versus s5 powerweapon GK that remove plague marines 2 advantages, toughness and FnP.

 

As for defilers, from the sounds of it he has all the stuff that lets him potentially charge turn 1. Dreadknights with the 2d6 or s10 hammers really hurt. Perhaps sub in more oblits? Combi-plas on all your rhinos? Plasmafire should cut them back a bit.

[GreatEscape_13]

Play missions that are more than just "run at each other and see who is standing at the end". Seriously, Battle Missions and Planetstrike and even Cities of Death can at least breathe life into games that are growing stale because an opponent consistently beats you with a particular list.

 

Cheers.

[fredbob524]

instead of play better what should have been written was write better lists to play with instead of mono nurgle with defilers for gods sake

 

also Great Escape that advice was probably the worst I have ever seen

[jeffersonian000]

Just learning to play your list better can go a long way toward winning more often with it. Yes, you want to be fielding units that work well with each other and synergize, but in the end we all tend to play with the units we own and like to include in our armies. Which is fine. Simply play to your strengths and downplay your weaknesses. However, without actually knowing what it is he's fielding or playing against, no amount of general advice will help other than to simply "play better".

 

SJ

[Hellios]

Just learning to play your list better can go a long way toward winning more often with it. Yes, you want to be fielding units that work well with each other and synergize, but in the end we all tend to play with the units we own and like to include in our armies. Which is fine. Simply play to your strengths and downplay your weaknesses. However, without actually knowing what it is he's fielding or playing against, no amount of general advice will help other than to simply "play better".

 

SJ

 

It is true but I don't see any reason (chance excluded) why a decent GK list shouldn't stomp a Nurgle themed list... Just taking the standard units... GKs and Plague marines. GKs can nulify the toughness advantage of plague marines with shooting and in CC meaning FNP is about all they have going for them... At range however the GKs 1 for 1 will beat them with torrent of fire... things equalize once the PMs get near... That then leaves you at risk of being stuck in combat... Where as I've mentioned they negate your toughness bonus and now your FNP and armor save as well... oh and they go before you in combat.

 

Khorne berserkers come out worse against the shooting and better in combat although if they have halberds things might still get a bit messy... Noise marines might be about as good in shooting with more shots against greater strength... The doom siren is nasty if you can get the drop on the GKs... but it is nasty on anyone and then you need to consider are you shooty or assaulty noise marines? If assaulty I5 and power weapons on the champion can help but again pray they don't have halberds.

 

Funnily enough the 1ksons which are normally considered the worse of the cult units or at least equal with noise marines do fairly well! 4++ save across the board is certainly worth it in combat with GKs... you can force weapon NDKs and a power weapon is always nice against PA... AP3 boltguns help as well... unless you come against a lot of terminators!

 

The two strongmen in the chaos codex are Daemon Princes and Obliterators and both of them are vulnerable against GKs...

 

Basically chaos will have a hard time against GKs... The chaos codex has horrible internal balance and I personally think the GK codex goes a bit too far in some places but overall it is ok... However when paired off against each other chaos space marines have a horrible time... Whatever you take expect a tough time against a good GK list and player... Playing a DG army expect it to be even rougher.

[Saa]

instead of play better what should have been written was write better lists to play with instead of mono nurgle with defilers for gods sake

 

also Great Escape that advice was probably the worst I have ever seen

Elitist much??? Lol the OP asked for help, not to be ridiculed. Though he didn't post a list maybe he likes fluffy lists and wanted to know if he could win within these parameters.

 

Jeez.....I've played GW shizz for 20 yrs now and I'll never understand 'IRtehBestest' mentalities towards a social game where you expect to repeat play opponents

 

@OP Try posting you're army list and what youu hope to achieve with it. I can say with confidence that if you do you will receive a better responce than the Moronic 10yr old shizz you expect frm the 40k community. Disregarding the fools so far this is a great site for info.

 

Don't let the cretins bring you down. B&C is a valuable place

[jeffersonian000]

Thanks for calling me a fool and a cretin!

 

SJ

[Race Bannon]

Gentlemen. Help not hurt. Take the person out of the discussion and focus on ... Tactics.

[spartan249]

This is a very good question, and one I'm not with a ready answer to.

 

Based on my experience with my black knights and a lot of playtesting against a chaos playing friend, I can say one thing. Range is on Chaos' side. Autocannons, Lascannons, and Missile Launchers are your best bet, as anything else requires you to get close to GKs, which will be your undoing.

 

GKs aren't an easy army to fight against now with any army, let alone one of the weaker codices like Chaos. If you really want to start winning, you're going to have to break away from Death Guard fluff and field the other, shootier cult marines (Noise Marines specifically).

 

The main flaw with a Death Guard army strategy is that it requires you to get close, then slug it out, relying on your superior staying power to win the game. GKs can neutralize many of your strengths rather handily, not to mention that they're much more flexible then PMs in the application of their firepower. With S5 storm bolters and army wide power weapons, getting close is a death trap, especially for the vaunted PMs.

[number6]

Heed Race Bannon, or I will close this topic. No need to get snippy, people. :)

[minigun762]

I felt like both GK and DE coming into the scenes confirmed my previous notion that you can't go too wrong with the basic CSM. Sometimes simply having those 2-3 extra guys per squad can make all the difference in the world.

 

GK play the same short range game that Chaos plays and probably plays it better (or at least has more options on how to play it).

 

The difficulty is that Chaos has a limited number of effective counters, and so most of the list building will come out looking similar.

 

You could try replacing oblits/defilers with AC/LC predators, as the extra tick of armor will help you survive their psycannons and psy-ACs longer.

Move from cult troops to CSMs, as I mentioned above.

Try plasma-termicide over melta, especially if they bring terminator/DK heavy lists.

Cheapen up your daemon prince, as you know its going to die quick anyway.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Commander S. Caesare]

I thank of you all for your advice and hope to use it effectively.

 

@minigun your advice was effective in my last deployment on Gk a day ago. 1000pt army going plasma-heavy (i took out the prince) nearly took out most of his infantry. I had 3 preds that took out 2 of the DKs. I still lost in the end since it was an objective-game.

[Aidoneus]

I'll jump in and agree that the problem is one of effective range. The GKs play the mid-range game as well as anyone, and better than most. The thing about GK though is that they back up intense mid-range fire with both mobility (to move toward gunlines or away from cc units) and cc prowess. No other army in the game can do that, and any good GK players knows it. Because the typical Chaos list wants to get into short range, all the GK player has to do is use his mobility and firepower to keep you at arm's length until he he whittles you down enough to beat you in CC. The solution then is obviously to make a list that doesn't let him do this.

 

You can't beat GK in the short-to-mid range firepower game; you just can't. That leaves you with two options: beat him at long range, or beat him in melee.

 

The problem with long-range is that, while Chaos has lots of good options, they're pretty much all heavy support. Predators, Oblits, havocs, and Defilers can all be useful, but they're competing for those 3 force org slots. Unfortunately, our troops aren't great at long-range firepower, and our Dreads are too insane to be trusted with big guns. That being said, if you're playing low-point games (up to about 1000pts) you can make do with 3 HS and try to hit him at long range. Definitely take out Dreadnoughts and Vindicares first, then focus on any infantry getting too close.

 

The more reliable way to go is to beat him in CC. Chaos has excellent CC ability, and most GK lists actually aren't all that great. Purifiers and Terminators are tough, but Strike and Interceptor squads will fold much more easily than most people think. Rhinos won't get you there reliably, but GK struggle taking down Land Raiders. Load up 2-3 Raiders with dedicated assault units and hit him hard and fast. Plague Marines are gonna struggle here, because of their low initiative and lack of FNP. If you want to keep the Nurgle theme, use marked CSM and Termy squads, or even possessed. If you want to allow yourself more flexibility, go Berzerkers and Khorne or Slaanesh Termies. Back this up with a cheap winged prince or two, and you should wreck his whole day.

 

In the end though, games against GK are just gonna be tough. It's a good codex, and a lot of its strengths are particularly effective against Chaos, and even more so against Nurgle. A lot of it will just have to come down to generalship and focusing on objectives.

 

Good luck, and death to the false emperor! :lol:

[spartan249]

I'm a little leery about forming a strategy around close combat to fight against GKs. While the rank and file are merely good, there are some insanely awesome CC units that will make mincemeat out of anything in the chaos codex without much effort. I'm talking Death Cult Assassins, of course, with their high number of power weapon attacks and very high initiative. If these guys aren't present in the enemy list, a berzerker strategy might work (still requires closing into the GK lines, which can be tough given how many anti-light armor shots they pack. Even Land Raiders need to stay in cover and cross their fingers, as Vindicares are cheap and insanely effective vs them) If they are, and you're running CC... be prepared to lose entire squads VERY quickly.

[jeffersonian000]

High number of attacks versus a low numner of wounds will see you defeat GK's in CC if you assault them with a large dedicated CC unit. GK's tend to have 1 wound and 1-2 attacks, in units no bigger than 10.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

Also, keep in mind that any given GK list cannot possibly have all of these threats in it at the same time. Of course you won't be able to beat a list with purifiers and interceptors and paladins and henchmen and a librarian and dreadnoughts and dreadknights... such a list doesn't exist! From what I've seen on this board and in real life, there are 4 basic builds you have to worry about.

 

1) Draigowing, or other termy-centric force: seriously powerful in assault and really tough to kill, but very few bodies and only 24" range. Back up and shoot them, or charge in with everything you've got and bury them in attacks. Also, multi-objective games are your friend, as Draigowing will be fighting just to tie.

 

2) Crowe+purifiers: lots of bodies in transports, excellent in assault, not bad at shooting. This is probably the toughest build for Chaos to deal with, because it combines great offense vs. MEQs with pretty good survivability. You're best shooting from range if you can, and you need to get him out the transports early to have a chance. CC is only good if you can dogpile him.

 

3) Basic PA, shooting-centric list: This will feature lots of Strikes and Interceptors, perhaps some regular termies, and definitely psiflemen dreads. This is what I run, and it works incredibly well (just logged 2 more victories tonight). Of all the GK builds, this is weakest in CC, so that's how Chaos is going to beat it. Unfortunately, in the right hands, it's also good at staying out of combat. You just need to press hard, try to kill termies with shooting, and then charge anything you can. Strike squads and interceptors fold in cc; trust me. :)

 

4) Coteaz+henchmen: usually he'll have 5-6 henchmen units, probably 1-2 long-range shooting and the rest meltas, crusaders, and DCAs. This army hits hard, but can't take a beating. Because henchmen aren't as flexible as actual GKs, this army can be beaten by following the well-known adage "shoot the assaulters and assault the shooters." Multi-objective games are also hard for these lists; he'll sit on one pretty well, but the DCA+company squads aren't tough enough to move forward and hold anything closer to you.

 

So each build has its strengths and its weaknesses. All are hard-pressed to kill land raiders at range. Henchmen are scary on paper, but in reality are quite brittle. Basic PA knights can't handle cc, particularly against I5 from berzerkers, slaanesh, or HQ. Paladins just have too few models, and can be insta-killed just fine (seriously, take a pair of vindicators, reserve them so he can't shoot them, then watch him cry as they drive on and kill half his army). Crowe lists are the only ones that I honestly have a hard time thinking of ways to beat with Chaos, so it's just down to playing the mission better and making the appropriate sacrifices to the dice gods (who, as we all know, are certainly gods of Chaos ;) ).

[khurdur]

I think a basic nurgle themed list is going to suffer, though we do have tools to at least give them a fight.

A week ago I beat a GK player @1500p using a lord, 2 units of melta PM, one unit of berzerkers and, 2

units of termicde and 6 oblits. You need the oblits as they outrange him. Use them to blow up his dreads,

and then his transports and then plasma cannon his men. Termicide is also useful for the psyflemen dreads.

Using 6 oblits I find is still great against most people

[spartan249]

@Aidoneus

I agree with most of what you say. However, there is another type of army, one that I'm using, which is a hybrid of shooting PA and assaulting Henchmen. The weakness in close combat of the power armored firebase is compensated for by the unit of death cult assassins lurking within or behind the formation (whichever will make them more difficult to shoot), ready to counter assault. With some of the manipulations one can do with DCA (double hammerhand + Quicksilver or MotA if targeting a tank/dread), they can really clear house in a single assault phase.

 

I'm just saying, if you're going for close combat against GK, watch out for DCA and keep away from them if possible. They will die if they don't kill what they charge, but chances are that they will, and they're probably much cheaper then whatever they just annihilated.