Sanguinor, mephiston, dante and other special characters

[JamesI]

People can have different opinions. I personally agree with Zhukov that Sanguinor is not the best choice for competitive play, while BO's experience clearly disagrees.

 

 

Lets keep the discussion civil and sometimes people just need to drop arguments and agree to disagree.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Mephiston should have a cover save if the oppenent has a lot of ap2/ap1, period. With that in mind:

 

Sanguinor against plasma:

3x 3/1 x 6/5 = 10,8 hits

Mephiston:

5x 2/1 x 3/2 = 15,0 hits

 

I'm not really weighing into this discussion, because I haven't got any experience of using either Mephiston or The Sanguinor. However, I don't understand how your numbers work.

 

Every (Space Marine) plasma shot that targets The Sanguinor will statistically hit 2/3 of the time. Each shot which has hit will statistically wound 5/6 of the time. Each hit which has wounded will penetrate The Sanguinor's invulnerable save 1/3 of the time.

 

So, each plasma shot will do 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/3 = 10/54 - 5/27 damage.

 

The Sanguinor has 3 wounds, and so can take 3/1 = 81/27 damage.

 

In order to take off all of his wounds, a Space Marine will need to shoot 81/5 = 16.2 plasma shots.

 

For Mephiston in cover (why Mephiston is guaranteed cover but The Sanguinor isn't going to get into combat I don't quite understand), working numbers in the same order we get:

 

Each plasma shot will do 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4/18 = 2/9 damage.

 

Mephiston has 5 wounds, and so can take 5/1 = 45/9 damage.

 

In order to take off all of his wounds, a Space Marine will need to shoot 45/2 = 22.5 plasma shots.

 

As I say, I'm not here to get into the HQ debate. But if you're going specifically to complain about other people's ability to understand probability, you ought perhaps to give more care to your own understanding. :)

 

Also, as I said, I don't understand why you're so keen to claim Mephiston's cover save 100% of the time due to your playstyle while denying that others' playstyles may allow them to keep The Sanguinor hidden.

[Brother_Byhlli]

(Also, I understand that while this is a disagreement we're all still being civil, so I hope you understand I'm not meaning to have a go at you any more than you or BO are having a go at each other - my post isn't meant to offend any more than yours!)

 

:)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mephiston might kill one unit of Grey Knights then dies from the charge due to psyk out grenades from other units multi charging him.

 

G :)

[Brother_Byhlli]

Mephiston might kill one unit of Grey Knights then dies from the charge due to psyk out grenades from other units multi charging him.

 

G :)

 

 

Alternatively you roll 1s all game long and Mephiston and The Sanguinor both get killed by a Gretchin on a mission.

 

*Shrugs*

[Drunken Angel]

After reading and drinking deeply of the thoughts here and consulting the pinot noir oracle I have decided to go ahead and send my comp list

 

My Comp theme is going something like this ........ so Mephiston and Dante walk into a bar :D

 

I have been following this thread closely I have enjoyed reading all of the thoughts thanks very much guys.

I have decided to put Mephiston in my 1750 comp list for this weekend. I just want to see how he goes I have never used him before. My instinct says take another troops choice like a Sang guard or even the Sanguinor (would but dont have the model yet) but curiosity got the better of me.

I think that the threat of Mephiston will upset some opponents tactics but he will struggle to make a big impact against good players. The missions and dice will have a huge influence too.

Painting more honour guard and a storm raven now

 

Anyway I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts :)

 

I promise some batreps

[knife&fork]

Also, as I said, I don't understand why you're so keen to claim Mephiston's cover save 100% of the time due to your playstyle while denying that others' playstyles may allow them to keep The Sanguinor hidden.

 

With a 3++ getting cover isn't that interesting, you'll need LOS blocking which is usually harder to come by, specially in the type of pure DoA list where sanguinor can shine (thanks to his buffs).

[Crynn]

just too expensive for anything that is all. has a good gun an ok combat attack ld 10 buff, would have been good on a 120 -130 pt character

 

seriously? :S his wargear (if taken in the space marine codex) puts him at 140. He then gets army wide Ld10 which is a pretty useful rull at times, preferred enemy against orks and to top it off Sternguard Ammo Options (which have been a life saver for me repeatedly). I agree he's probably a bit expensive, but even if he was 150-160 he'd be worth it. Compare him to codex marine HQs of a similar points cost and he is about right in fairness

 

The two mini characters (corbulo and lemartes) are both unsuprisingly good, they're cheap and add useful things to whichever squad they're in. The main benefit of them is that they're cheap though.

 

I've loved using Dante ever since I built my Dante model, backed up by a priest and honourguard or sangguard he's actually a bit of a monster. 7 attacks at Initiative 7 Strength 5 with a reroll on the charge is nice. He's won more combats for me than I'd care to count and happily butchered ork mega bosses and Chaos lords repeatedly. His only really big issue is the lack of eternal warrior. Eventually he's going to die as theres only so long before the enemy gets the charge and you have an opening to dante.

 

Mephy is a monster but the lack of independant character makes me avoid using him, Matt Ward really did a number on us giving us THREE characters that lack such an important rule. especially as two of them are horribly expensive... But anyway, Meph is a wrecking ball and in one on one combat he's rarely going to lose. Having said that, if he ends up in a combat with ANYTHING with instant death rule, expect that model to be what your enemy keeps on the table, at which point... by by mephy.

 

I wont comment on the sang, meph, seth or astorath as i've used none of them

 

 

Just because a units wargear adds up to a cost and the unit then costs is lessened doesnt make it good. So i take a blood angel captain give him a blade encarmine a combi plasma which he cannot shoot and charge with then I give him a jump pack and master craft his weapon, so that adds to around 150 maybe more, Then we make that unit 130 would he be a bargain? no he'd still be a pile of crap because he just doesn't do anything worthwhile, just like tycho. You are saying that taking a bad unit (a captain) then adding wargear to it means tycho would be good at 150, he still wouldnt be. Why? because he would be competing with librarians and chaplians which are still better and cheaper!

 

Well hey, at least i'm special in the way I response right? :(

 

As always no offense meant might you doubt about it.

 

 

Disagree btw: I find Mephiston really good against Grey Knights. You just gotta be more carefull with him, but you get rewarded for that: You pretty much control the GK player his movement, while you also have a near unkillable Psyhic Hood shutting down his Hammerhands and Fortitudes now and then. Why is he so hard to kill? They lack ranged Ap2/Ap1.

 

Sanguinor however is also good against GK's, I admit that right away.

 

Exactly, Meph is fantastic against GK he just requires a decent hand to play him.

 

Mephiston might kill one unit of Grey Knights then dies from the charge due to psyk out grenades from other units multi charging him.

 

G

 

Not really, you pick unit on out skirts or you assault and use consolidation moves to wrap him in lets say an assault squad meaning he cant be charged, its very easy to do, charge assault squad in with him after meph destroys 5 purifiers then use consol to protect him, basic meph tactics.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is solely based upon the assumption that the opposing Grey Knight player will let you do that... Once be comes out to play everything changes. A good player is going to setup his army such that all units support each other. So sure Mephiston might indeed punk out a Strike squad or even two if you happen to find your opponent sleeping but like I said a good player will not let it happen and there is still the chance that even a lowly Strike squad could ID Mephiston with a nemesis force weapon. Every time so far I've gone up against Mephiston my opponents opted to keep him out of assaults. On top of that massed psycannon fire will hurt him even with some cover. He has no business fighting a squad of Paladins joined with a GKM and Libby. The psykout grenades are judt bad news along with the radiation grenades.

[Crynn]

That is solely based upon the assumption that the opposing Grey Knight player will let you do that... Once be comes out to play everything changes. A good player is going to setup his army such that all units support each other. So sure Mephiston might indeed punk out a Strike squad or even two if you happen to find your opponent sleeping but like I said a good player will not let it happen and there is still the chance that even a lowly Strike squad could ID Mephiston with a nemesis force weapon. Every time so far I've gone up against Mephiston my opponents opted to keep him out of assaults. On top of that massed psycannon fire will hurt him even with some cover. He has no business fighting a squad of Paladins joined with a GKM and Libby. The psykout grenades are judt bad news along with the radiation grenades.

 

Supporting units in no way stops blocking with assault marines so he still wont get charged if you are clever, yes you can rend but what a waste of fire power as that means to shoot him with psycannons you are generally chucking a whole bunch of crappy storm bolters into him. On average on the charge meph will kill a lib AND two paladins making up his cost in 1 round! actually more, the psych out grenades dont work when you are charged, so you are looking at i7, i8, his hood will more than likely stop any force weapon from a squad based GK attack presuming you attack him, you then use assault marines to force the paladins to attack them through being in base to base contact, meph would live you'd kill lets say 8 assault marines loose a lib 2 pallies and probably another pally from a sargeant with a fist. This is presuming we have meph and a 10 man assault squad charging a 5 man pally unit and a GM and a Lib so over 700pts being attacked by 500 pts. Basically you have 3 pallies left after meph attacks each with 2 attacks, so 6 attacks which will kill on average 3 guys , hit on 3's then wound on 2s GM kills another 2 so you will do 5 wounds, lets be nice and say you did 6 and have 8 done in return? next round its game the paladins are gone.

 

If in that combat if you were to put your pallie attacks on meph which there is now way you could do with all of them at most 1 which would be the pally meph charged that you didnt remove you would have a 25% chance of getting a wound on him because you got a hammerhand off somewhere which is very likely then you need to pass a psychic test then not get nulled by Mephs hood on the pallies which is a 60% chance leaving you at about a 10% chance to kill him. very low.

 

Meph is actually a scalpel not a sledge hammer, people who think otherwise do not have the proper understanding of how to use him, to protect him in combat use supporting units. there is no 250 pt GK unit that will beat him in combat on average NOTHING, the one exception is draigo (he's like the perfect Meph killer )

 

On paper meph looks weak vs gk's but in practice this is just not the case.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Black Memories]

I'm struggling to see why that wouldn't work well with the Sangunior also. Talking about using him as a in conjunction with another assault unit just means you're following the first rule of launching an assault: don't fight a fair fight. That's what every launched assault should be doing at a threatening opponent. I don't feel like you're addressing the idea of hiding sanguinor like you would meph very well. I think what people are getting at is not simply giving sanguinor a "worthless cover save", it's using vehicles to flat out block LOS entirely, which is exactly how one operates mephiston. I've interchanged them in several lists I've run and noticed little to no drop off depending on what I'm doing with them. In fact against Eldar meph is nearly worthless to just run around on the board taking 3d6 tests.

 

If meph is a scalpel, the sanguinor is a laser scalpel. He's extremely good at what he does but he needs proper support and protection. Compared to the Sanguinor, Meph is a raging barbarian of immortality. He's almost immune to small arms fire, where as the sanguinor is much more vulnerable to it. That said, again, using the same tactics that protect meph, the sanguinor is just as effective in slightly different ways and several identical ways. There's a reason meph isn't taken in DoA lists, and it's the same exact reason that you seem to be claiming the sanguinor isn't that good. Without LOS blocking cover, they both eventually just get shot to pieces.

 

This just strikes me as a discussion between a few people who aren't connecting with what each other is trying to say.

[Crynn]

Actually mate I completely agree with you. The same principles apply, I also did say trhe eaxact same thing before in that you block line of site to the sang, DoA lists dont work for him cause he just gets shot you need to completly obscure him, more of a hybrid list is where he makes his best work. The thing is that the sang never hits as hard as meph, he just isnt as smging, yes he is good and you back him up with assaults but he doesnt ahve the dmg nor the survivability. You are taking him to do a slightly less dmging roll but give out more buffs. Now sang is good for this, i think he is good I just don't think he is as good as meph, for insatance against those pallies (supposedly a bad target for him) the sang doesn't Id them or the lib so cause half the dmg and doesnt re-roll hits agains the pallies so it could even be less. In the following round of combat he also strikes at the same time as the pallies (i6) so willt ake more dmg as well. Just an example.

 

I agree the sang is good I just think people have the worng Idea about him, that he is some awesome DOA buffing dude, no he needs a vehicle to hide behind just like meph.

 

As for meph being useless against eldar this is far far from the truth I would say he is far better than the sang who seeing how much anti infantry fire power eldar put out. Mephs psychic hood is amazing verses eldar granted if you have another hood already then he is less use. The other thing is the only power he needs to get off occasionally is wings, he doesnt need any other abilities to beat anything eldar have in combat, str 6 ids almost everything anyway. Meph just becomes a little more defensive than offensive against eldar. I have a regular eldar opponent and Meph does not lack even with eldrad on the table.

 

All up mate I agree with what you are saying about the sang and I don't believe I have argued differently. I still believe that Meph is an already better choice though.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Black Memories]

I'd disagree about the eldar thing but that's just my experience. It could be I just used him wrong but keep in mind sang charging is S6 also, and thus ID's a lot of the eldar stuff as well. When I put meph in a raven, he always does well against eldar. What i've found is like what you said that wings is the most important ability to cast. My theory behind that is if I can avoid casting wings at all, meph's stat line alone will win him a lot of combats, especially given how specialized eldar units are, aka no powerfists in shooty units usually. That said Sanguinor can always just true-jetpack around and not even worry about casting stuff. I agree with the hood concept somewhat though. Personally I think that the hoods against eldar are a bit over rated. The only truly damage thing that seems to be cast is fortune on the warlock squads that make them super tough.

[Crynn]

I'd disagree about the eldar thing but that's just my experience. It could be I just used him wrong but keep in mind sang charging is S6 also, and thus ID's a lot of the eldar stuff as well. When I put meph in a raven, he always does well against eldar. What i've found is like what you said that wings is the most important ability to cast. My theory behind that is if I can avoid casting wings at all, meph's stat line alone will win him a lot of combats, especially given how specialized eldar units are, aka no powerfists in shooty units usually. That said Sanguinor can always just true-jetpack around and not even worry about casting stuff. I agree with the hood concept somewhat though. Personally I think that the hoods against eldar are a bit over rated. The only truly damage thing that seems to be cast is fortune on the warlock squads that make them super tough.

 

All true mate.

 

Good eldar players tend to use fortune on things like falcons and war walkers as well to keep them alive which makes them an absolute pain to deal with. also stopping doom from hitting one of your units is really usefull. the hood has a 40% success rate which is pretty god though you ahve to be in range. But I agree with pretty much everything you have said and your reasoing behind it.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[knife&fork]

If we break him down into parts, how much is the Sanguinor worth to you?

 

His base statline

 

The re-rolls

 

Sergeant buff

 

how many and what kind of units do you want to keep in the 6" +1A bubble for him to be "worth it"?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Crynn the problem with your analysis is it the best case for Mephiston and does not take into account when things go wrong. For example 60% odds of the psychic hood working is not actually all that great. You have ignored the effects of psykout grenades to which Mephiston has no counter. A Grand Master, Librarian and five Paladins should all be able to swing on him if they charge. It's just not a good matchup and like I said even a Strike squad could insta gib him with a little luck plus GK have access to hoods as well. In regards to psycannons squads such as Purifiers can take four.

 

G :confused:

[kollar]

Crynn the problem with your analysis is it the best case for Mephiston and does not take into account when things go wrong. For example 60% odds of the psychic hood working is not actually all that great. You have ignored the effects of psykout grenades to which Mephiston has no counter. A Grand Master, Librarian and five Paladins should all be able to swing on him if they charge. It's just not a good matchup and like I said even a Strike squad could insta gib him with a little luck plus GK have access to hoods as well. In regards to psycannons squads such as Purifiers can take four.

 

G :)

 

But the whole thing with psykout grenades is that you have to get the charge to get them to work. A solitary model (possibly with JP rules) is much more maneuvrable than a squad with lots of large base models. Mephiston should never be within 12" of that unit unless he has gotten wings of and can charge them (thus nullifying the grenades). He should also be enveloped by an assault squad to protect and support him. Otherwise you are just presenting a massively unfair match-up with a large unit with three times the points of Mephiston. He should lose that fight.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If Mephiston charges a squad of Grey Knights then he is vulnerable to a counter charge the following player turn... so at best he can kill one squad versus a smart player.

 

G :)

[Leonaides]

though as pointed out above, that means the ba player is actually a rather dumb player to do such a thing...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In my opinion it is not a good idea to take Mephiston versus GK as you are basically handing them a 200+ point advantage right off the bat. That is just my opinion though. :cuss

 

G :cuss

[Zhukov]

I'm not really weighing into this discussion, because I haven't got any experience of using either Mephiston or The Sanguinor. However, I don't understand how your numbers work.

I only used some numbers necessary to show the ratio between them. I could have done the usual BS x S x T x W = amount of shots just as well; but it doesn't matter. What I did do? The amount of hits they can each take before going down. So I simply already assumed the weapons hit, as thats the same for both guys. (so simply multiply your numbers by 2/3)

 

I can easily show you that I didn't do anything wrong and that therefore your attempt at correcting me is false.

My numbers dividing:

15.0/10.8= 13,89

 

Your numbers dividing:

22.5/16.2= 13,89

 

;)

 

Also, as I said, I don't understand why you're so keen to claim Mephiston's cover save 100% of the time due to your playstyle while denying that others' playstyles may allow them to keep The Sanguinor hidden.

No, I didn't deny that other could keep the Sanguinor hidden sometimes, but assuring that Mephiston has a cover save is way easier and therefore that should always be possible.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Math hammer is often very misleading ... for instance who really is going to fire 255 bolters at Mephiston? ;) I would rather have T4 with 2+/3++ rather than T6 2+.

 

G ;)

[JamesI]

Math hammer is often very misleading ... for instance who really is going to fire 255 bolters at Mephiston? ;) I would rather have T4 with 2+/3++ rather than T6 2+.

 

G ;)

And if they had the same number of wounds, I might agree. But 5-3 is a pretty big difference in most cases.

[Zhukov]

What James says, its the wounds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

2 extra wounds is definitely an important factor. I still place more value on the good INV save. There is stuff that can and will nuke Meph... you can be more bold with Sanguinor if necessary. Mephiston lurking on the boundary waiting to score a hit just seems kind of weak for the Lord of Death.

 

G