Sanguinor, mephiston, dante and other special characters

[Drunken Angel]

2 extra wounds is definitely an important factor. I still place more value on the good INV save. There is stuff that can and will nuke Meph... you can be more bold with Sanguinor if necessary. Mephiston lurking on the boundary waiting to score a hit just seems kind of weak for the Lord of Death.

 

G :tu:

 

Yes it is lame and denies the fluff in Mephistons backround, so does Dante's statline deny his backround. The most senior commander of all the chapters Dante does not have eternal warrior and/or a decent invun either.

I am resigned to having Mephiston wandering across the board from ruin to ruin like some sort of dark gandalf till he reveals himself and charges into combat.

I will try to run him within my honour guard as I have no vehicles. In a mech list Mephiston is the better choice, in a DOA list the Sanguinor is a better choice. Mephiston is a fill in till I grab a Sanguinor.

You can not deny Mephiston spreads fear on the table, plenty of smart players can negate him but no-one ignores him, that might be enough.

[Morticon]

You can not deny Mephiston spreads fear on the table, plenty of smart players can negate him but no-one ignores him, that might be enough.

Great point there.

[Black Memories]

I'd also agree with drunken angel. Mephiston having a bad game is him getting his points back. My gaming group absolutely hates mephiston because I use him extensively and a lot of other BA players have started to do the same. His fear factor, or at least planning factor, is sometimes worth more than his points. It makes your opponent play mephiston instead of your army/mission. His 250 points can save the rest of your list a significant amount of damage for several turns. I actually have not fielded meph or the sanguinor against a GK player so I can't comment about his effectiveness, or lack thereof, in that scenario. I imagine even GK players cannot ignore mephiston. In a recently game using both sanguinor and mephiston I actually baited out a deathwing+belial assault and lost sanguinor in the process and counter-charged the next turn with mephiston and an assault squad and wiped out the deathwing squad. My point is depending on your list you can actually use mephiston as a bait instead of just as a solo killing machine that must survive. Abusing the fear of him, etc. It's a viable tactic (I did it with sanguinor, but I've done it with meph before). Sometimes he even survives the all-in bait. I had him kill the nightbringer, a necron lord on a skimmer body, and 3 wraiths in my opponent's one assault phase with 3 wounds left.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow how much gaming can vary from one area to another ! Mephiston used to be very popular where I play but few use him now. I believe the number of dark eldar and GK players have reduced his power level here. I can definitely see him being really bad news for Necrons though. ;)

 

G

[Brother Nathan]

today i played against wolves with astro. he was lackluster. then again i never got the charge. but his number of attacks and was hit by so many attacks that he eventually went down. lost his last wound to a powerfist. anyway i was not impressed(course first game in a long time) but regarding this thread and sanguinator and meph, i have to say that i think sanguinator would have been better. the sanguinators stats dont rely on getting the charge, and the boost he would have given to the nearby squads and the sarge could seriously have helped. and really i dont think mephy would have been as useful as the number of powerfists the wolf player could bring to bear, well hey hit and wound each character but the lack of an inv... next list i come up with will be back to normal libby and maby sanguinator...

[JamesI]

Of all the BA HQ special characters, Astorath is the most dependent on getting the charge. After the charge he's ok, but he relies on the charge the most.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In my opinion BA in general has always depended on getting the charge since Furious Charge was introduced back in the 3rd edition codex. Dante is only S4 without the charge coupled with FC and I think getting caught flat footed can hurt him as well... Of course he has Hit and Run now so if he can survive the first turn of combat then he has a good chance to reap some revenge - so not quite as bad as Astorath not getting the charge. On the flip side there are Space Wolves who have always been the master of receiving the charge. I ran Astorath with a squad of Honor Guard carrying a banner for the +1A the few times I ran him and that helped a lot. He is really good with a squad of Death Company but that is probably the subject for a different discussion. :D

 

G :)

[DantonTH]

About Mephiston

 

I think his one mean-killing-machine but as a GK player I have to say i'm pretty pleased to see him on the other side. He can be dangerous, yes, but he's still "land raider" without inv and non-eternal warrior. I have killed him with massive bolter-fire with salamanders so GK's should not have any problems with Force weapons, grenades and all Psycannons (and sometimes we do have even lascannons, meltas and some plasma:).

 

...and to add some wood-on-fire Draigo always teaches him to be... :)

[Brother Nathan]

agreed, more than most armys being denied the charge hurts us more than others. thats why i found astro lackluster as due to dropping in he had to wait awhole turn to get stuck in and due to me wanting him close enought to help counter charge meant he was close enought to be charged as a result. think i prefer my libarian and his choice of preferrred enemy or sheild in my opponents turn, would likely deal me a better turn...

[Brother_Byhlli]

agreed, more than most armys being denied the charge hurts us more than others. thats why i found astro lackluster as due to dropping in he had to wait awhole turn to get stuck in and due to me wanting him close enought to help counter charge meant he was close enought to be charged as a result. think i prefer my libarian and his choice of preferrred enemy or sheild in my opponents turn, would likely deal me a better turn...

 

Why don't you try not deep striking?

 

Exactly because we depend on getting the charge, I'm absolutely dumbstruck by the number of people who insist on deep striking next to the enemy and getting a round of shooting in.

 

In my opinion, while Descent of Angels is a fluffy rule, it's a massive red herring in terms of tactics. Ignore it. Forget about it. Use your jump pack for the mobility they give you, not so you can drop out the sky and get counter-charged before you can do anything.

[Brother Chris]

There's a lot of truth in this. It is quite odd the DC don't have heroic intervention. It is hard to imagine both fluff and gamewise why they just sit around. Dante's hit and run does go some way to mend this in his case. But odd that he doesn't have it hiself and if he joined the vangaurd they would lose it in an odd example of his tactical brilliance.

[Brother Nathan]

agreed, more than most armys being denied the charge hurts us more than others. thats why i found astro lackluster as due to dropping in he had to wait awhole turn to get stuck in and due to me wanting him close enought to help counter charge meant he was close enought to be charged as a result. think i prefer my libarian and his choice of preferrred enemy or sheild in my opponents turn, would likely deal me a better turn...

 

Why don't you try not deep striking?

 

Exactly because we depend on getting the charge, I'm absolutely dumbstruck by the number of people who insist on deep striking next to the enemy and getting a round of shooting in.

 

In my opinion, while Descent of Angels is a fluffy rule, it's a massive red herring in terms of tactics. Ignore it. Forget about it. Use your jump pack for the mobility they give you, not so you can drop out the sky and get counter-charged before you can do anything.

 

because i rarely game and to be honest at the start of the battle it looked like th better option than running accross the table at a 3k gunline wolves army... usually i do just charge accross the table at the enemy and get shot to ribbons and never make it in. staring at several lascannons and 2 squads of longfangs and vindicators and multiple greyhuntersquads and runepriests.... plus my partner also decided to go into reserves, sticking out in front of 3k of wolveswith only my 1500... would have died just as quick...

[Brother_Byhlli]

agreed, more than most armys being denied the charge hurts us more than others. thats why i found astro lackluster as due to dropping in he had to wait awhole turn to get stuck in and due to me wanting him close enought to help counter charge meant he was close enought to be charged as a result. think i prefer my libarian and his choice of preferrred enemy or sheild in my opponents turn, would likely deal me a better turn...

 

Why don't you try not deep striking?

 

Exactly because we depend on getting the charge, I'm absolutely dumbstruck by the number of people who insist on deep striking next to the enemy and getting a round of shooting in.

 

In my opinion, while Descent of Angels is a fluffy rule, it's a massive red herring in terms of tactics. Ignore it. Forget about it. Use your jump pack for the mobility they give you, not so you can drop out the sky and get counter-charged before you can do anything.

 

because i rarely game and to be honest at the start of the battle it looked like th better option than running accross the table at a 3k gunline wolves army... usually i do just charge accross the table at the enemy and get shot to ribbons and never make it in. staring at several lascannons and 2 squads of longfangs and vindicators and multiple greyhuntersquads and runepriests.... plus my partner also decided to go into reserves, sticking out in front of 3k of wolveswith only my 1500... would have died just as quick...

 

Often going into reserve is the right move to make, but I would say that 80% - 90% of the time if I've put units in reserve they come on via my table edge.

 

I don't understand how you can get shot to ribbons before you get into combat, though. If we're talking about a jump infantry list (which we must be since you use Descent of Angels), then surely you're in combat by turn 2? I mean, the absolute minimum distance you can travel with a two-turn charge is 31" (turn one, 12" movement and minimum 1" run; turn two, 12" movement and 6" charge). If you're setting up 12" onto the board, that's 43" of movement. Games tend to be played on boards which are 48" deep, so if you're not in combat at that point, I don't quite understand why.

 

Now, I don't necessarily recommend a headlong rush into combat - taking terrain and suchlike into account, you can take an extra turn to get there but provide yourself with a cover save every step of the way. Combine that with Feel No Pain and the numbers an all-infantry list allows and I don't understand how you struggle to get into combat.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DoA is the best approach versus gun lines IMO. The majority of your army comes on turn 2, blast away with your meltas then launch assaults on turn 3. It's pretty cut and dry once you get it down.

 

G

[knife&fork]

DoA is the best approach versus gun lines IMO. The majority of your army comes on turn 2, blast away with your meltas then launch assaults on turn 3. It's pretty cut and dry once you get it down.

 

Vs a very mobile Gunline or lots of low AP blast weapons it might not be such a hot idea. Not deep striking also gives you a bit more control of your FC/FNP or lib bubbles.

[Drunken Angel]

DoA is the best approach versus gun lines IMO. The majority of your army comes on turn 2, blast away with your meltas then launch assaults on turn 3. It's pretty cut and dry once you get it down.

 

G ;)

 

Back from a 2 day tournament 1750 pts

 

Vs Chaos mech, Win (multiple objectives)

Vs Deathwing, Major win tabled T4 (multiple objectives)

Vs SOB Mech, Major loss got tabled ( 2 objectives) bit of a disaster all round for many reasons not just the loss.

Vs BA with 2 SR's 2 Furioso's and RAS, Major win (annihilation tabled in T4 (game took 27 minutes) I had enough time played another game and tabled him again in T5

Vs BA 1 SR and DC with DC dread and RAS plus VV, Win (annihilation).

 

My first time with my list and blood angels at a comp (hell I only had a 1000 pt DOA list as a try out the weekend before, I have never even run the BA or my list before 8 days ago). DOA are a win big army once the angels are engaged and rolling through cc they are unstoppable

 

The 27 minute game was over so soon because I was able to shoot down 1 SR with the 6 meltas/IP's from a RAS and SG. I was then able to shoot/assault the second SR (I took mephiston he jumped onto the SR sponson rolled unleash rage and sanguine sword, then carved his way through the bulkhead killed the pilot then jumped off just in time to watch the flat out craft with its cargo of furioso and RAS crash).

It was great to watch both SR's drop in flames as soon my deepstrikers/assaulters came onto the board. After Mephiston ripped the SR to bits he went on to dismantle the last furioso again with UR and SS. Against the Deathwing he took out Belial in a multi assault with the honour guard.

 

I had it themed as Mephiston and Dante walk into a bar and they owned the bar, At one point Dante walked into a ruin full of terminators told the SG to wait outside and walked back out one turn later wiping his axe. Mephiston walked into a ruin full of TH/SS terminators (yes bad decision by me) but still walked out with a slight TH migraine and 5 dead terminators behind him.

While Mephiston and Dante did a lot of finishing it was the RAS, sanguinary priests, honour guard and SG that did the hard yards soaking fire and holding till the finishers could finish combat. I dont think it was my named characters that did the real work my opponents may remember Dante and Mephiston but it was the SG and HG that actually set the platform to launch off.

The living saint was kept off the board and in reserve because the SOB player was worried about Mephiston

 

Every time I was able to get good reserve rolls the armour went up in smoke. I had to be carefull to lead the SR full of DC around, I have huge respect for them. My opponent was very careful to stay away from the 30 odd I5 power weapons attacks and melta hell in the SG, they virtually kept the DC in their SR. It was a dance of the angels for three turns all revolving around denying furious charge to each other.

 

Edit to add I always reserved and deepstriked I am a firm believer of this tactic. Either DS straight in and melta everything in sight or drop into cover if possible or out of LOS to assault next turn. I am not terribly bothered by return fire (outside of plasma templates, bolter double tap range and heavy flamers) Accurate DS and good positioning combined with priest placement is the most important thing.

Yes I will take a round of unreturned fire just to get the charge. Yes I will risk difficult terrain to get saves against shooting I think can hurt. Low AP ? it is what it is...... there is not much of it. Thankfully power armour and the priests fix pretty much everything else.

I got trashed on the score card for army composition and tactics but I guess thats because I refused to let my jumppacker's become cannon fodder. Mephiston never died in combat he got shot everytime, nothing touches him otherwise if you are careful. I ran him with the honour guard and they definitely influenced the opponents choices. He trashes armour and anything else he wants to.

I will take the Sanguinor or an Epistolary with Jump Pack next time instead of Mephiston so not much will really change in the list. No-one I played had any anti psyker defense except the other BA player.

[Brother Nathan]

theres no way my assault marines would have made cc if they had started on the board. the ammount of firepower that was leveled their way would have killed them before they got there. put it this way this was the wolves deployment... and hes shooting through terrain not into it so no coversaves....

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s317/generalhazard_album/models/bat%20reps/P3240715.jpg

[JamesI]

Nathan, there is a cover save for shooting through cover. If the shots pass over area terrain and go between 2 elements of the area terrain, there is a cover save.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Nathan, there is a cover save for shooting through cover. If the shots pass over area terrain and go between 2 elements of the area terrain, there is a cover save.

 

This.

[calgaryBA]

Holy crap you must have had some rough games if that's how you were playing Nathan. It's pretty hard to not have a cover save in this game.

[Brother_Byhlli]

theres no way my assault marines would have made cc if they had started on the board. the ammount of firepower that was leveled their way would have killed them before they got there. put it this way this was the wolves deployment... and hes shooting through terrain not into it so no coversaves....

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s317/generalhazard_album/models/bat%20reps/P3240715.jpg

 

That nice big piece of terrain that cuts their force in two would have been nice cover from half of the army if you'd hopped your way up one flank or the other, I think. I can't see the full board, so I can't really say for sure what the story is.

 

I'm not by any means saying you're absolutely wrong and that deep striking is always fail. I'm just saying that most of the time there are better options.

 

If you could reliably and accurately drop your forces so that they're entirely on one flank with the terrain in between you and half his army you get the same effect as having jumped there, but with scatters and reserve rolls I just find it relies too much on luck.

 

One of the big weapons in any army is fear. By giving you so many big-looking scary tank-things, your opponent is giving you heebie-jeebies before you've even started playing. But consider: those tanks won't all be in range and even the ones that are are looking at killing a few Blood Angels per turn. Land Raiders, for example, are looking at taking out no more than two or three Space Marines per turn, not allowing for cover saves. With only two or three turns to get to him and half his army's line-of-sight blocked by terrain, you've plenty of bodies left to smoosh him up when you get there!

[Brother_Byhlli]

Oh, also - the rulebook specifically recommends covering about 25% of the board with terrain. We tend to play on four 2'*2' boards, so before we set up terrain we just cover one board with stuff to make sure we're on about a quarter. From the looks of your board there's almost no terrain on the table at all. Make sure you have plenty stuff to stop yourself getting shot up!

 

:woot:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The table looks like it's hugely setup in favor of the SW army... Unfair and unfun.

 

G :lol:

[Brother Nathan]

whwere does it say if you shoot through terrain you give a coversave? Yea thats why i normally have a libarian with sheild. it also didnt help that my forces came in peacemeal and it was spearhead. using the exact same battle plan vs sob i was able to kill all bar 1 squad. not tat it matters. my point was th off the charge mos of our normaller characters arnt fearsome at all. though i would say meph and astro would still be able to put more hurt on te eemy than the should take when charged...

[Brother_Byhlli]

whwere does it say if you shoot through terrain you give a coversave? Yea thats why i normally have a libarian with sheild. it also didnt help that my forces came in peacemeal and it was spearhead. using the exact same battle plan vs sob i was able to kill all bar 1 squad. not tat it matters. my point was th off the charge mos of our normaller characters arnt fearsome at all. though i would say meph and astro would still be able to put more hurt on te eemy than the should take when charged...

 

BRB p.21, "When are models in Cover?: "When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is on cover.".

 

Look at the large image on BRB p. 23 which shows examples of plenty units getting cover saves.