Azrael Turnbull Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 If you are like me, you prefer fluffy armies over power gaming ones. They are rewarding to play with, and fun to play against. I find the problem with power gaming armies is that they quickly become boring to play with, and no one wants to play against them. But what about fluffy AND powerful? Enter the Deathwing! For this tactica, I will be using a 1'500pt army as an example; but as a whole, it applies to Deathwing armies of all sizes. I will be exploring questions, such as: what is absolutely necessary for a Deathwing army? What is the Deathwing's target priority? What should I engage and what should I avoid? How do I keep those 30 man units off of me? What about armies that wield a lot of AP2 or 1 weaponry? When should I use Deathwing assault and how many units hould I keep in reserve? So, the first point that any player needs to consider: 'What should I take in my army?' In 1'500pts, you can field 5 terminator squads an a venerable dreadnought. Simple, scary looking, but not very outmanoeuvrable. I usually go for a more mobile approach by using the following list, which I shall also be using in my examples: Belial Terminator Librarian (not essential) 5 x Terminators with TH & SS Banner & Apoth Land Raider Crusader with extra armour 810 points Terminator squad 1 2 x Lightning Claws 2 x Chainfists Assault Cannon 255 points Terminator squad 2 2x TH & SS 1x Chainfist Stormbolter and Power Fist (only because I do not own 4 chainfist models) Cyclone 250 points V.Dreadnought with extra armour 160 points Total: 1475 I bet the first thing that you've noticed is that there is a 25 point gap in the point limit. A pure Deathwing army does not come with many cheap options; therefore, it is difficult to meet the 1'500 points exactly. Many players like to include units from the armoury, like a Vindicator, which makes meeting the point limit a lot easier. I choose not to, but that is only personal preference. So, why do I choose this list? The Command Squad: An obvious choice. I choose the Storm Shields as it compliments the 'Feel No Pain' granted by the Apothecary. It becomes a very hard unit to budge. For Belial, the Lightning Claws are the statistically best option. Initiative 5 attacks are essential to reduce incoming damage to the squad in assault. I prefer the Power Sword, as it is the fluffy option and it looks cooler. But what of the Librarian? I picked him to fill up the points. I could have used a second Dreadnought, but I didn't. The Librarian fills an extra seat in the Land Raider, provides more wounds to the squad, gives an extra 5 initiative 5 attacks on the charge (thanks to Mr Standard) and also gains the squad a once per player turn 2+ invulnerable save (the chance of passing a LD 9 test is 5/6). Land Raider Crusader: Lots of seats, lots of much needed anti-horde firepower… and a Multi-Melta. A Land Raider Crusader is a must for a Deathwing army. Be careful how many you bring. They are expensive and have a difficult time making up for their points. I suggest taking only one, as Belial's unit will not have much trouble in gaining those points back. Without this transport, your very expensive Command Squad will not make into combat in time to make enough difference to the game. More importantly, you will have a hard time keeping away from the units you need to avoid, and charging the units you need to confront. The Land Raider also attracts Lascannon bolts; something your Terminators aren't so good at repelling. There will be more on the use of the Land Raider later. And finally… The Venerable Dreadnought: You MUST bring at least one of these to every game. The weaponry is yours to choose; it is not important. He is your sacrificial unit, your tar pit and your life line. He stands in the way of every power weapon unit, 30 man horde and monstrous creature (and not the weaker ones that your Terminators can dispatch). The important thing is that you keep your dreadnought alive until he can engage or be engaged by your target unit. The Land Raider's line of site block can really help here. You should target expensive units if you can; Ghazghkull, Hive Tyrants, Khorne Bezerkers, other Terminators and all forms of deathstar units. It may also be necessary to target less expensive units that still provide a great threat to your army. 30 man Ork Boy units, for example. The Dreadnought's job is to keep these units engaged for a large portion, or all, of the game (2 to 3 or more turns). The first AND MAJOR rule is to accept any result on the damage table that is not a destroyed result. It doesn't matter if you become immobilised in combat, or you lose that Dreadnought combat weapon; his job is to stall, not kill. Force your opponent to reroll any 5 or 6 on either the glancing hit or penetrating hit table as you cannot end up with a worse result. If all your weapons are gone and you are immobilised (this happens most of the time before he is succesfully destroyed), then you will obviously be forcing your opponent to reroll a lot more dice. At this point, your Dreadnought has reached his limit. Remember that a penetrating hit has only a 1/9 chance of destroying you with the reroll. Unfortunately, there will be games that the Dreadnought does die quickly, or even gets shot to bits if your opponent outmanoeuvres you. The game becomes a lot harder when this happens, but rest assured, it doesn't happen often. So, this is my example army list. As you can see, the Venerable Dreadnought is a must have in your army; this I can not stress enough. There will be many more posts to come to cover the rest of the points; but for now, feel free to comment on what you think of this so far and offer your own suggestions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I too prefer fluffy armies, however I do try to add a bit of power where I can spare it. I rarely take a Librarian anymore, prefering to have a TDA-equipped Interrogator-Chaplain attached to Belial's squad for his Litanies of Hate rule, as well as a additional storm bolter and power weapon. I have always wondered why a Crusader is worth it under 2k points, and you have given me some very good reasons. While my Venerable Dreadnought is not yet complete, I hope that the hunk of metal turn out to be as effective as you claim they can be. I look forward to your further advice and tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2833690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drekkan Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 after 15 games as a loganwing player, I think that target priority is the key. their's nothing that you can't get rid off with fire power. just my two cents as a terminator player. Drekkan. ps : it is alway funny when my opponent realise that I'm actually out shooting them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2833693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howloutloud Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I think I'll try to counterpoint a few things with my own army and personal experience. 1. Belial. While the twin lightning claws would be a great option (arguably the best) I believe thematically that the Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield look the best and are still quite potent. Yes you are losing his Initiative 5 and the re-rolls/ extra attack but you are gaining an increased survivability. This will also compound with a view I have for the basic squads which I will get to. 2. I've tried using both the Librarian and the Interrogator-Chaplain in games and I find that I'm drawn more to the Chaplain as a second HQ when used. While the Librarian does give protection from Psychic powers to the rest of your army, the bonuses of the Chaplain always seem to outweigh the slight protection. Or to put it quite bluntly: I've regretted taking the Librarian before, I've never regretted taking a Chaplain. 3. Command Squad. Yes the Apothecary should always be mandatory now, however I find I get a lot of use out of my standard bearer to the point I always take both. The Feel No Pain also allows me to free up and take a mixed unit rather than the ever plentiful "All Thunder Hammers". Mine usually consists of 2 TH/SS, 1 Sergeant with Power Sword and Storm Bolter and 2 Lightning Claws. I also noticed you didn't take any heavy weapon on your command squad, Was that an oversight or did you not have the points? 4. Transports. Actually not transports so much as the only vehicle we can take terminators in... The land raider and the land raider crusader. Personally I have 2 Crusaders and I use them, including at 1500 points. At that low a point level your opponent will be scrambling to blow them up. It also makes them really good at softening up targets before depositing their payload for an assault. 5. Venerable Dreadnoughts. I don't use them, as I'd rather have either more terminators on the board or more tanks. While using them as a tarpit isn't the worst idea you are basically stating "I have 145+ points that I really don't care what happens to it as long as I keep one of your units out of the thick of the fighting". While that can be a good thing, so would that 145+ points going toward another unit on the board, and a unit of 5 terminators can tarpit just as well if not better (survivability, killing effectiveness, not becoming a smoking wreckage after one lucky shot...) 6. Weaponry extras. To be perfectly blunt, I don't buy any upgrades at all unless I have to. Mind you that isn't counting the heavy weapon. I have rarely if ever come across a vehicle I needed to blow up in hand to hand so badly that I could justify the 5 points for a Chainfist. That's 5 points that could be going to something more useful, especially considering you just attacked the vehicle with 5 terminators that come with powerfists standard. Add to that you all ways attack the rear armor value when fighting in close combat with a vehicle. With all that in mind I give you my 1500 list: Belial: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Apothecary 185 points Interrogator-Chaplain: Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter 145 points Command Squad: Sergeant w/ Power Weapon and Storm Bolter, 2 TH/SS, 2 LC, Cyclone Missile Launcher 235 points Deathwing Squad 1: Sergeant w/ PW and SB, 2 TH/SS, 2 PF and SB, Cyclone Missile Launcher 235 points Deathwing Squad 2: Sergeant w/ PW and SB, 1 CF/SB, 2 PF/SB, Heavy Flamer 220 points Land Raider Crusader 250 points Land Raider Crusader 250 points Total: 1500 points I do accept that I had to take a Chainfist in the third unit, this is because of the extra 5 points available. Honestly I would rather have had a different heavy weapon in the squad instead, but I would have been over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Having played a ton of deathwing both before and after FAQ I've got to disagree with your list and your assertions for a lot of reasons. 1. DA librarians are absolutely terrible and a complete waste of points unless you're only playing against GK and most of the time even then. 2. Armour saturation, you only have 2 vehicles making them very easy pickings for the melta spam that is proliferating the current meta. While the venerable is good its very bad as a one off as it will spend the majority of the game not being able to shoot and even with rerolls its going to become worthless pretty quickly. 3. Cyclones are excellent for their points now that they are heavy 2. Much better at thinning hordes than an assault cannon and generally better against armour as well because of the longer range and higher base str makes it better against everything but av14. Which brings me to point 4... 4. You've got one source of melta currently with a max of two depending on how you equip the dread. It's absolutely imperative you get a source of fast moving melta as this is where DW is most lacking. This is best done through 3 man bike squads with double melta or through typhoon speeders. 5. You need more bodies on the field. You've got very few to go and lose and you'll be hard pressed in any objective based mission to both claim objectives near your deployment as well as go on offense. 6. TH/SH after the FAQ is incredible. You'll want to have at least half your squads made entirely up of TH/SH terminators. The rest should either be shooty or perhaps a lightning claw squad if you're expecting lots of horde. Depending on points the shooty squads can have a chainfist in them. 7. As for upgrades (apoth/banner) only the apoth is really essential. The banner just makes for a nice addition when you've got the extra points. Ok after all that what does a better list look like? belial DW squad: 5x TH/SH, CML, apoth, banner DW Squad: 5x TH/SH, CML DW Squad: 1x pw/sb, 3x sb/pf, 1x sb/cf, cml DW Squad: 1x pw/sb, 3x sb/pf, 1x sb/cf, cml typhoon speeder w/ mm typhoon speeder w/ mm 3x bike, 2 melta, pw, meltabombs mm attack bike Alternatively you can swap a shooty squad for another 5x TH/SH squad and the biker sarge can have a powerfist instead of the pw/meltabomb combo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 @Howloutloud That list of yours can be effective but I don't believe it's as adaptable as it needs to be. For one you really don't have a reliable answer to apposing AV14 outside of the single MM on each crusader. You'll also be hard pressed to take out things like rhino's and razorbacks quickly. Objective missions can also be an issue with only 3 troop choices especially as you'll most likely lose at least one squad during the game if not more. If you want to run that style list though I'd drop the Chaplain and that chainfist and get two typhoon speeders w/ MM. Your armour popping abilities go way up and you can use the crusaders for infantry killing like they should be instead of trying to blow up armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoonKin Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I like our terminator boys and I do agree on Droma's pointers. The current meta just makes playing Land Raiders pretty difficult. My list is an all foot slog at 1500pts with cyclones and chainfists, apothecary, hammer and shield, and the librarian. But my preference is dropping the librarian for 2 venerable dreads with heavy flamers in drop pods, or fielding 3 typhoons at 1750pts. I think deployment and target priority is the key to playing Deathwing to its best. I am sure the others can explain this better than I do :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I like the benefits that 3 typhoons bring to the table, for a few points lower then a land raider you get 6 missile shots and 3 multi-meltas bargain. While I hate it fluff wise having any chap will do so I go a PA int-chap points permitting(1 more attack for less points and a 3+ with FNP is a small downside) but in this one a PA basic chap does it. As far as HW go after the FAQ upgrade I think CML beats all comers hands down especially with 4 multi-meltas on the board (3speeaders 1 LRC standard/min). As far as squad load out goes 2 TH/SS, 1 CML/chainfist/SB, PF/SB and sergeant with LC's. command is 2 TH/SS, 1CML/chainfist/SB/apochothary, 1TH/SS/Bannerbearer and sergeant with LC's 1500 Pts - Dark Angels Roster HQ: Belial, Master of the Deathwing 1 Belial, Master of the Deathwing, 130 pts (Lightning Claws (pair)) HQ: Chaplain 1 Chaplain, 100 pts Heavy Support: Land Raider Crusader 1 Land Raider Crusader, 270 pts ( Extra Armor; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter) Troops: Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad 4 Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad, 295 pts (Storm Bolter x1; Chain Fist x1; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x3; Cyclone Missile Launcher; Apothecary; Standard Bearer) 1 Sergeant (Lightning Claws (pair)) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 240 pts (Power Fist x1; Storm Bolter x2; Chain Fist x1; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x2; Cyclone Missile Launcher) 1 Sergeant (Lightning Claws (pair)) Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad, 240 pts (Power Fist x1; Storm Bolter x2; Chain Fist x1; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x2; Cyclone Missile Launcher) 1 Sergeant (Lightning Claws (pair)) Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron 1 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 75 pts (Typhoon Missile Launcher; Multi-Melta x1) Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron 1 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 75 pts (Typhoon Missile Launcher; Multi-Melta x1) Fast Attack: Ravenwing Support Squadron 1 Ravenwing Support Squadron, 75 pts (Typhoon Missile Launcher; Multi-Melta x1) Total Roster Cost: 1500 Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com I prefer 2k games but I find this a solid list and except for the non-TDA chap fluff filled Typhoons can ether go 6" fire everything at st8 or go 12" and go anti personnel with 2 templates 1 multi-melta they can use the LR for cover and a few turns in if they are still around they get used as a distraction to split the enemy if possible. The deathstar should be a counter assault/mid-late game because if they get out too early other then to shoot they often take to much fire after they decimate the unit they assaulted. Try to get your DW down one side with the sq that takes the most fire rotating to the board edge and behind the spearhead, becoming a fire support sq to avoid being pop'ed for VP and becoming bait to entice the enemy into a deep charge to get thous VP('s) (read their own deaths). Quite often it is beneficial to take second deployment and turtle in one corner on your opponents far side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Well, I'm chuffed that there are so many responses already. I will be posting more of my tactica sometime over next week (probably Monday), but I decided to post a response to everyone's feedback so far. Unfortunately, I think many of you have misunderstood my intentions. The army list that I have posted is only an example. Yes, it is the one I use; but as I previously stated, I like to be fluffy rather than a power gamer. I would like to reiterate that my aim is to help people carve their own path of glory; it is not here to tell everyone what list they should use. There were, however, some points made that were relevant to what I have posted. Discussions on what wargear you should think about bringing for a unit to forfill the purpose you gave them, for example. This will be the topic of my next post, and I will be including forces outside of the 1st company for those of you who don't want to play pure Deathwing armies. I am, of course, not telling you to stop posting your ideals and army lists; far from it. You all know what you are talking about. I'm only saying that what type of army list you use is not what I am here to discuss; it's what you do with them on the field of battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Sorry, double post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howloutloud Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 @Howloutloud That list of yours can be effective but I don't believe it's as adaptable as it needs to be. For one you really don't have a reliable answer to apposing AV14 outside of the single MM on each crusader. You'll also be hard pressed to take out things like rhino's and razorbacks quickly. Objective missions can also be an issue with only 3 troop choices especially as you'll most likely lose at least one squad during the game if not more. If you want to run that style list though I'd drop the Chaplain and that chainfist and get two typhoon speeders w/ MM. Your armour popping abilities go way up and you can use the crusaders for infantry killing like they should be instead of trying to blow up armour. To be fair I was half asleep when I wrote the list ;) . The 2 land raider crusaders are there more of a transport/ nuisance factor. They are a pain to kill, even with melta weaponry, and they are assault vehicles. If they happen to kill hordes or vehicles on the way or after dropping off their cargo then all the better. Honestly I would rather take more Terminators with Cyclones than the 2 land raiders, but I have to play with what I have right now. As for the 2 MM land speeders, I am trying to keep this pure Deathwing. So Belial as a must, secondary HQ must have terminator armor, Terminators for troops, elites allowing dreadnoughts and Land Raider variants for heavies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 @howl I can see your point then if you were trying to stay pure DW. I'm a little more of a power gamer so while I do love the DA fluff I don't normally let it restrict me on the table top. I do run a lot of all termy lists though so sometimes they go hand in hand. @Azrael Turnball If you want to talk about "fluffy DW tactics" then by all means. However your thread title doesn't make that clear and your post was making assertions about what is actually effective on the table top that aren't true given the current meta of the game. Thus the responses you have garnered from such a post. If you want to discuss fluffy reasons for bringing certain units by all means do so but please don't write about how they are super great and must haves when they blatantly are not. I'm not trying to cause offense but someone new to deathwing who looks at this tactica would take your advice at face value and get crushed more often than not against a lot of the current lists. I'd like to avoid that if possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Fair enough. Since I haven't caught my target audience, I will drop my tactica. I will leave the thread for you guys to talk about your own experiences and advice. It makes interesting listening, anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Don't drop it as I think doing fluff lists are still fun and interesting for people. Just make it clear that's what your posts are trying to convey. I'll add more about DW tactics later. Deployment and such when I've got more time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235290-tactica-deathwing-outnumbered-and-outgunned/#findComment-2834672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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