VV what's a better loadout.

[Sir Blayse]

Ok, I'm finally getting my DoA together, I've got my bases covered up to the first 1000. Now to go above I plan to add one or two VV squads. I working out a couple of ideas and have about 500 points to spend on them. I'm going to magnetize the arms so I can change up the options.

 

My first idea is to have 5 VV, Sgt with PF and 4 with either power swords or lightning claws. I'm able to build somewhat decent PA claws, though the pose is not perfect. Now technically the claws come out be slightly better on average, but with 4 fewer total attacks do not max out damage potential. Should I maybe do 2 PW's and 2 LC's? I will also model up some storm shields. Now I could just run a second VV with the same options, except they would lose one power weapon a piece. The other option would be to build a ten man squad, same load out as above for the first five, then run the others with Melta bombs. I could combat squad to have a CC unit and an anti-armor unit. I could have 4 storm shields and be around 490 for the unit. Otherwise, I don't have to have shields and would have 90 points for another sanguinary priest. I currently have 2, plus the HG guy.

 

Are there better ideas for this?

 

Thanks.

[Brother_Byhlli]

There are as many replies to this as there are members of the board, but I can give you my tuppence:

 

If you're planning on tricking out a squad with power weapons, jump packs and a powerfist, you're looking at spending 235 points on your unit.

 

A unit of Sanguinary Guard, armed entirely with rerollable power weapons, costs you 200 points. Add a chapter banner and you're equal on number of attacks at 230 points. You also have significantly better armour and better guns, with cheaper options for power fist and infernus pistol upgrades. So, if you plan to max out power weapons, I'd suggest considering Sangiunary Guard instead. They're almost guaranteed to be better. They also have the benefit of counting as scoring units in the event that Dante makes it to your army list - and that's got value you can't really measure beyond saying "woah, it's awesome!"

 

My problem with putting too many power weapons on a unit like Vanguard Veterans is the very real likelihood that you'll absolutely spank anything you challenge in combat. Your turn two - Descent of Angels, Heroic Intervention, charge, wipe out enemy unit. Enemy turn three - shoot down all of your Vanguard Veterans.

 

To get around this, I'd be looking at probably kitting your Vanguard Veterans out with the standard four chainswords and the Sergeant's power sword, and then add a couple of storm shields. You're less likely to wipe out a unit in the first round of combat but you're also survivable enough that you can take the hits from almost anything. That should mean, if you get it right, that you're breaking free from combat in your opponent's assault phase - and that should always be the aim of every one of your assaulting units. If you prefer, add a second power weapon to make yourself a little more choppy. But work out the numbers: a five-man Vanguard Veteran Squad with two power weapons will statistically cause three wounds on a unit of ten Space Marines and receive less than one wound in return. That gives you - statistically - the best chance of breaking the unit in the following assault phase, which will be your opponent's.

 

Something else to consider if Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. Your Vanguard Veterans have neither. By running a jump infantry list that doesn't deep strike using Descent of Angels, you actually significantly increase your tactical flexibility and the focus and strength of your army. Vanguard Veterans are good operating in a scouting role where you're not able to support them with other units - but if you just plan to drop them next to a Feel No Pain bubble, I'd suggest they might as well start next to a Feel No Pain bubble and jump up the table. You're potentially subjecting yourself to a turn of shooting before you get into combat, but you're also giving your opponent huge targeting priority issues if you send your whole army moving up to 18" per turn across the table in his face. Before you automatically run with Descent of Angels, give very serious and careful consideration to not actually using it at all.

 

Hmmm. Have to go do some gardening. Hope this was helpful!

[Sir Blayse]

Thanks.

LGS meta has at least three bug armies with several monstrous creatures. So I'll probably try power fist and two power weapons with storm shields. Also, squad may be intercepting nobz and mobs of boyz of up to twenty. What is a good number for storm shields? Just two on the chainswords or another on the power fist.

 

 

* I'm actually thinking that PF, PW, and 3 Storm Shields should workout pretty nicely. Hopefully surviving turn 1 assault and winning in second go round. Worst case the squad should be able to tie up units until I can get others to join in to help.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Fair enough! Important question is to find out what works for you. As Robin Williams says in Good Will Hunting:

 

"You're not perfect, sport. And let me save you the suspense. This girl you met, she isn't perfect either. But the question is: whether or not you're perfect for each other. That's the whole deal."

 

True to Warhammer as it is to relationships. :) Find out what works for you and fits your playstyle. Find models you love and look for ways to include them in your list. Have fun. :D

[thade]

I post this at least once a week; hit the Tactica board and search for Vanguard if you want more details. <3 In general...keep it focused and keep it cheap. JPs on Vanguard are costly so while they seem very good at "dropping in behind enemy lines, deep and alone, to kill some lone unit/tank" you don't want to drop them in deep and alone. They will be far too expensive for a suicide unit in almost all cases.

 

My load-out rules:

• For every model with an upgrade, take one model without an upgrade (or with a storm shield). Non-upgrade models are where you put the bulk of the saves to take...especially armor-ignoring ones.
  
• No more than one upgrade (weapon or shield, not both) per model; i.e. no models with two lit claws...that 15 points for a single extra attack is almost the cost of another marine.
  
• Take one to two storm shields to help mitigate enemy power weapon attacks.
  
• Try to fit in a power fist or a thunder hammer.
  

 

Example load-out (I almost never DS this one): 2-3 single lit claws, 1-2 storm shields, 1 pf, fill out with vanilla veterans.

 

Example load-out (you could DS this as anti-infantry): 1 pf, fill out with vanilla vets.

 

If you're going to DS/use HI, I recommend filling the squad out to ten and combat squadding it (or taking two squads if you prefer) so you can kick in Lancaster's Square Law. With DoA you're probably going to hit your target, but with two squads you will definitely hit your target...or be able to probably hit two targets.

 

Also, drop in an assault team or SG team with the VV whenever you can so they can soften up the target with shooting (or potentially open it if it's an APC so the VV can eat the contents).

 

Good luck. :)

[Sir Blayse]

Thanks, I think the cheaper load outs should be good for what I plan to use them for. The PF is a must, the main goal being able to take out large creatures or long range threats. Other use would be DS Melta squad close to pop a transport, but be able to have VV rip up the contents. Other use might be as a counter-charge unit in my side of the board.

 

My wife is going to be using this army, so I will have to explain the in and outs of it to her. Our LGS group has been working to teach a lot of newer players and vehicle spam lists have been really unpopular to them. DoA seems to be looked upon better.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Delighted to hear that you're bringing your wife into the hobby and I hope she hugely enjoys being part of it!

 

If you're writing the list for someone else, though, rather than designing the list and explaining how it works, you might consider (i you haven't already) explaining the options and letting her design her own list. She's likely to get spanked a couple of times, but if you take the time to find out what she wants in her list and - more importantly - why she wants it, she may well enjoy the game more.

 

I'm not saying you haven't already done this and I only mention it because I know one of my faults is that I tend to bulldoze through people's opinions and ignore what they want. Case in point - I was helping a 14-year-old kid in my LGS design a list of Space Wolves and completely blanked the fact that he wanted Dreadnoughts in the army. Finished with what I thought was an unbalanced list and he somewhat apologetically said "thanks" and then told me he was going to try again at home. I realised what I'd done, apologised for ignoring him and set about creating a list that he actually wanted to use, which obviously made him much, much happier.

 

*Sigh*. Sorry, this wasn't supposed to turn into a lecture and I realise I'm mostly exposing my own flaws rather than your own. Just wanted to make the point!

 

So far as deep striking meltaguns with the Vanguard Veteran Squad is concerned, you've hit on what I consider to be a valid tactic there. Because one of the best (if not the best) ways to deep strike meltaguns is on a unit of Honour Guard, you also bring Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to your Vanguard Veteran Squad, which is something they sorely lack if you deep strike them on their own.

 

I hope your teaching goes well - I'm taking a young lady friend with me to the store in the next couple of days after she expressed an interest. Let's keep on expanding our world!

 

 

--BB

[Phototoxin]

I've used 5 - 1 CCW+Pistol, 1PF+Storm Shield, 2LC+Storm Shield & Sgt w/Glaive+Storm Shield. Essentially they are to cause maxiumum disruption. I agree that they aren't worth the points vs Sanguinary guard so I'm acutally making **more** VVets so that I have options in terms of only 1 power weapon or 2 fists and the rest regular... it depends what role you want them to take too.. against tanks/parking lot a multi-assault with powerfists would be great