One thing Codex: Chaos Space Marines got right in theory...

[Dammeron]

One of the elements of the current codex that I think the writers got right at least conceptually is the notion that Chaos Space Marine forces are not exclusively legion focussed; over ten millennia, the forces of chaos have become splintered, schismed, fractured; individual warlords breaking away to wage their own private campaigns, fed by newcomers from various renegade chapters, pirate forces and so on and so forth. Some of the legions have maintained a semblance of their original purpose and cohesion (the Iron Warriors, Death Guard and Word Bearers most notably), but even they operate on a fairly loose basis until whatever over arching authority they answer to (be it a primarch, warlord or Chaos God) deems otherwise.

 

As such, a Chaos Space Marine force can and should be whatever the hell you want it to be; it COULD be comprised exclusively of ten millennia old veterans who still recall the siege of the Emperor's Palace and fight with regards to their legion ethos. On the other hand, it could be a specific cult that has sprouted up within that legion dedicated to a particular power, philosophy or god, in which instance it should be possible to represent this on the battlefield. By the same token, ones force could be comprised of somewhat more fledgling recruits; younger generations of Space Marines broken away or cast out from the Imperium more recently, in which instance one should ideally be able to concoct a force that is structured and plays somewhat differently from the previously mentioned army structures.

 

The last codex attempted this by providing a wide variety of options. If one wanted a straight Iron warriors army, one could opt for the established Iron Warriors list, which imposed certain limitations and introduced certain specific options. If one wished for a less defined force, one could simply use the standard army list. The problem with this system was that it was massively over complicated, clunky and somewhat redundant: the standard army list was customisable enough that basically any Chaos Force you wished to represent could be concocted without the need for the abstruse legion specific army lists with one or two minor alterations.

 

The current codex doesn't make any meaningful attempt to provide this at all; it has simply removed everything and then presents the lack of options as "freedom of choice." One thing it DOES do, however, which should have been emphasised somewhat more in the last codex, is introduce the notion that Chaos Forces are various and unspecified (at least in the background). One should have full freedom to experiment with force structure, army ethos, character customisation etc.

 

Personally, I stand by the conviction that it is entirely possible to provide a single army book, indeed, a single army list, that is various and customisable enough to represent any chaos force you wish (incorporating chaos space marine renegades, legion specific armies, cultists and demons) without being unnecessarily clunky, abstruse or inelegant.

 

How?

 

- Define certain army-structure altering differences between H.Q. options: Introduce a Renegade/Pirate Captain option who functions as the old 3.5 Lieutenant option: He has lesser stats and subtly different options from a full fledged Chaos Lord, and also allows a limited number of options to be taken in the wider army list that would usually only be available to loyalist chapters. Chaos Lords, on the other hand, represent the more ancient legionary captains; they have better stats, access to different equipment (more archaic and chaos specific), plus a wider variety of Daemonic Rewards. Forces led by Chaos Lords have the option to take "Traitor Legionaries" (see below) as troops choices, but armies led by them tend to be much smaller (owing to prohibitive points cost) and lack the more specialised equipment available to renegade warbands. Also, introduce options for the Chaos Lord that allow him to be upgraded to a Dark Apostle, Warsmith etc which may also affect the overall army structure. Daemon Princes should be the baddest of the bad; the big elite option for Chaos armies that have tonnes of options, who count daemonic units as troops, elites and/or H.Q.s depending on their respective places and may also command armies of traitor legionnaries OR Renegades depending on certain upgrades that can be purchased. Any of thes eoptions should also have the ability to be upgraded to sorcerers for a suitable points cost (apart from Daemon Princes, who should have access to psychic powers and abilities as standard).

- Standard Chaos Space Marine units now "Renegade" units; Renegades function as standard chaos space marines, save that they have certain equipment options that alter depending on which H.Q. option is the army's leader. Instead of Chosen, the elites section of the army list now boasts Traitor Legionaries; highly elite but extremely expensive Chaos Space Marine units who have +1 WS, I and A, are Fearless and have access to certain limited amounts of specialist weaponry and veteran skills. Such units count as Elites in most circumstances, unless the army is led by either a Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince with the appropriate upgrade, in which instance they count as troops.

- Daemons. Daemons should be included in an appendix to the standard army list in which they are arranged and detailed as though in an army list of their own (akin to the current codex daemons army list, but somewhat more considered). Daemons can be included in any standard Chaos Space Marine force, or an army can be concocted from the army list provided. In a standard Chaos Space Marine force, however, they do not occupy spaces on the Force Organisation chart UNLESS the army is led by either a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince.

- Daemons specifically should be much more various and customisable than they currently are. With reference to the background, they should be THE most various and customisable force in all of 40K; even the Tyranids are bound by the constraints of biology and physical lore; daemons are not. To this end, I think it would be most beneficial (not to mention interesting) to introduce a system whereby we are presented with basic daemonic "templates" for each established type of daemon (e.g. a standard stat list for Slaaneshi and Khornate Greater Daemons, Slaaneshi and Khornate Daemon Footsoldiers etc) along with the ability to customise and upgrade via the application of a very limited number of daemonic gifts/mutations etc. This would allow players to create any of the "classic" daemons they have become used to, whilst also providing the option for them to go wild with experimentation and conversion. This should also ideally apply to Daemonic Engines; a standard "chassis" provided in the Heavy Support section to which successive alterations and upgrades can be applied at increasingly prohibitive points cost.

- As for the Chaos Legions, rather than having specific alternative army lists for each, it will be possible to build armies redolent of both the classic Traitor Legions and any offshoots or schisms one wishes from the standard army list. How? Via introducing a system whereby we say farewell to the established Chaos Space Marine "cults" as standard army list entries, instead utilising a system whereby any Chaos Space Marine unit gifted a particular Mark of Chaos can be upgraded to a particular cult (or a variety of others) via the application of a chaos reward/daemonic gift. This could work by simply introducing an army wide option for any Chaos Space Marine unit to be upgraded with a SINGLE daemonic gift/chaos reward for a suitably prohibitive points cost per model. Using this system, it would not only be possible to create entire armies of a particular "cult," but to also introduce differing "cults" amongst the chaos space marine worshippers of a single god, plus a list of "undivided" rewards/gifts each of which are redolent of certain "undivided" legions so players can create entire armies redolent thereof, or mix and match units with different gifts/rewards to create a more hotch potch force.

[Saa]

Firstly, apologies if this sounds rude but I think you've missed the point of complaint from a large portion of chaos players. Whilst this plan works ok for the four god aspected legions, this isn't reflective of the undivided legions unless I've misread your post. What about my Word Bearers? How is their fluff being represented here? Ok you mention daemons as troops but where are our cultists, our embrace of possession as sacred and our faith in the pantheon of four represented?

 

The Alpha legion. Where is their subterfuge, their meticulous planning and deception represented? The Night Lords, their terror tactics and the debilitating fear they're famed for. The Iron Warriors and their cold tactical genius portrayed through heavy mechanisation and utter disdain for the ruinous powers?

 

I fear that you have only offered us another version, though slightly improved version, of the dex we currently have and though it would be more convoluted, I'd personally rather see five different codexes rather than another 'Vanilla plus".

 

However, I'll add a caveat that I may have misunderstood your plan as I'm reading this on a crowded train on an iPhone lol

 

Saa

[Dammeron]

Firstly, apologies if this sounds rude but I think you've missed the point of complaint from a large portion of chaos players. Whilst this plan works ok for the four god aspected legions, this isn't reflective of the undivided legions unless I've misread your post. What about my Word Bearers? How is their fluff being represented here? Ok you mention daemons as troops but where are our cultists, our embrace of possession as sacred and our faith in the pantheon of four represented?

 

The Alpha legion. Where is their subterfuge, their meticulous planning and deception represented? The Night Lords, their terror tactics and the debilitating fear they're famed for. The Iron Warriors and their cold tactical genius portrayed through heavy mechanisation and utter disdain for the ruinous powers?

 

I fear that you have only offered us another version, though slightly improved version, of the dex we currently have and though it would be more convoluted, I'd personally rather see five different codexes rather than another 'Vanilla plus".

 

However, I'll add a caveat that I may have misunderstood your plan as I'm reading this on a crowded train on an iPhone lol

 

Saa

 

 

 

I'd advise reading over my post again; there's a whole section on representing the Undivided Chaos legions.

[Saa]

Ok. I've read it. And I've re read it. I still stand by my points as you have barely addressed any of the issues I've raised.

 

Edit : Please feel free to extrapolate upon your coverage of the undivided legions as clearly I've missed the information that my questions posed.

[Dammeron]

Ok. I've read it. And I've re read it. I still stand by my points as you have barely addressed any of the issues I've raised.

 

 

This could work by simply introducing an army wide option for any Chaos Space Marine unit to be upgraded with a SINGLE daemonic gift/chaos reward for a suitably prohibitive points cost per model. Using this system, it would not only be possible to create entire armies of a particular "cult," but to also introduce differing "cults" amongst the chaos space marine worshippers of a single god, plus a list of "undivided" rewards/gifts each of which are redolent of certain "undivided" legions so players can create entire armies redolent thereof, or mix and match units with different gifts/rewards to create a more hotch potch force.

 

 

If you'd like me to be more explicit: alongside the chaos rewards/daemonic gifts relating to each Chaos God would be a set of Undivided Gifts each of which would be redolent of the ethos of a particular Undivided legion (for example, there would be a "Night Stalkers" gift which would lend the unit the "stealth" special rule and impose a -1 leadership penalty on any unit successfully assaulted by one or more models with this ability, allowing one to create a Night Lords flavoured force). Alongside this would be the ability to upgrade Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes to legion-specific commanders (Dark Apostles, Warsmiths etc) each of which would have their own unique abilites. Furthermore, the army flavour could be further enhanced via the application of appropriate "veteran skills" if one chooses to create a Traitor Legionary force.

 

As for cultists, they would be simply included alongside chaos mutants in the standard army list as a troops option.

[Saa]

So in effect you're proposing a return to the previous dex rules of veteran skills? And it's inherent abuse or pointlessness?Edit; I'm not trying to be an ass but I'm sorry you're not proposing anything new or that hasn't been tried before

[Lord_Caerolion]

I like this idea of both Marks and Gifts. This way, we can finally have Cult units different from the "cult" we're shown, so Nurgle Rage-Zombies, or Slaaneshi guys in a drug-addled stupor (plague marines) etc. Of course, GW would never do this, but damn that would be an awesome set of fan-rules.

[Dammeron]

So in effect you're proposing a return to the previous dex rules of veteran skills? And it's inherent abuse or pointlessness?Edit; I'm not trying to be an ass but I'm sorry you're not proposing anything new or that hasn't been tried before

 

 

No. As I said; read the post again. Veteran skills would be a limited option available ONLY to particular units (Chaos Lords, Terminators, Traitor Legionaries), and each would be limited to ONE at a prohibitive points cost, in the same manner that certain Space Wolf or IMperial space Marine units can be upgraded with limited skills or abilities in their army list. Similarly, Chaos Gifts/Rewards would be set at a particular limit per unit (ONE for none IC units, three for IC). I don't mind criticism, but please, please take the time to read what's actually been written before launching into it.

[Saa]

Ok. Forgive my clear lack of understanding of the language I was raised on. My time spent studying English at university is obviously failing me so I crave the boon of understanding ;)

 

How given your parameters do you propose I differentiate with any level of accuracy to the fluff I have been spoon fed these last 20 years between my WB army, my NL army and my IW army. Within the boundaries of what you have offered me whilst maintaining my desire for fluff

 

I've quantified that I originally wasn't trying to be an ass but I feel you're defending a previously flogged horse

[Dammeron]

Ok. Forgive my clear lack of understanding of the language I was raised on. My time spent studying English at university is obviously failing me so I crave the boon of understanding :P

 

How given your parameters do you propose I differentiate with any level of accuracy to the fluff I have been spoon fed these last 20 years between my WB army, my NL army and my IW army. Within the boundaries of what you have offered me whilst maintaining my desire for fluff

 

I've quantified that I originally wasn't trying to be an ass but I feel you're defending a previously flogged horse

 

 

Basically, if you wanted to represent a "pure" Word Bearers force, using the system above, you would take:

 

- A Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince upgraded to a Dark Apostle (in which instance he would have equipment and abilities redolent of a Chaplain).

- Your troops section would be filled out with Traitor Legionnaries all upgraded with whatever Undivided "Gift" is redolent of the Word Bearers (something akin to "Dark Disciples," a reward that perhaps makes their ability to summon daemons to the battlefield somewhat better than other Chaos Space Marines or something to that effect) and daemons.

 

If you wanted to create a Night Lords army:

 

- A Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince upgraded to a Night Stalker (which would confer the abilities similar to those described in the initial post, plus perhaps the ability to take Raptors as elites as well as fast attack options).

- Traitor Legionaries upgraded with the Night Stalker gift (which would confer the abilities described in the original post).

- Raptors and bikers filling out the elites and fast attack options also upgraded to Night Stalkers.

 

And so on and so forth. Both of these armies would play in highly distinct ways, the one relying on daemon summoning whilst the latter would be very fast, stealthy and mobile.

-

[Saa]

See, all I wanted was for you to expand upon the original ambiguous idea. Now I'm warming to it :o

 

Edit. I suspect my piss and vinegar stems from so many yrs of playing black legion Word Bearers and not having the fluff reflected even remotely represented regardless of which of my 3 armies I play. If a fix suggested is offered I'd like detailed clarification :P

 

Edit 2 spelling

[Whitefireinferno]

TLDR; Now the NEXT STUFF WILL BE IN RED i.e. rose coloured so you lot will need to remove those glasses for a minute.

OKAY WE GET IT. Chaos got dealt a bung hand OP tbh I read the first 3 lines of your first post and knew what the rest held in store for me.

 

Yes the 3.5 codex was good maybe a little too good at the time it is now also gone and you get the 4th ed dex tell me can your marines be painted as Alpha Legion? how about Word bearers? or Iron Warriors? the answer to all 3 is Yes, Can you tell me all your marines are 10k old? yes you can*I still doubt any are 10k year old Dudes due to warp dicking with time* and finally is there not a whole handfull of codices you can use for your army? again yeah.

 

 

TBH I don't care if I sound like an ass but this IS the reason I stopped playing Khorne not the codex well sort of, because it became Codex:Whiny Marines Do not get me wrong I hope there is a day when I can proudly wear the mark of Khorne upon my neck and field a tide of brass and red Anger or when Huron Blackheart can continue to Succeed in the places that armless abby could not. I will wear the label Jumper of Codex or Bandwagoner before I return to the most upset group of gamers. So yeah you got a bung codex the best way of fixing it is not to add silly rules of the last codex hell why not give them allies ect ect. You Will more than likely get a update before 6th if not soon after and it may or may not be better or worse either way people will complain about it that is fact. BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE AND ADMIRATION OF THE DARK GODS QUIT THE YOU KNOW WHAT.

 

Even with your last pose OP your fix to the Problem is also what ruined the old codex Some will outshine others by a fair margin like Word Bearer Daemonbombs and Ironwarrio boom spam its not helping make new and interesting lists its limiting useful ones to the same levels as the competitive lists of now.

[Dammeron]

TLDR; Now the NEXT STUFF WILL BE IN RED i.e. rose coloured so you lot will need to remove those glasses for a minute.

OKAY WE GET IT. Chaos got dealt a bung hand OP tbh I read the first 3 lines of your first post and knew what the rest held in store for me.

 

Yes the 3.5 codex was good maybe a little too good at the time it is now also gone and you get the 4th ed dex tell me can your marines be painted as Alpha Legion? how about Word bearers? or Iron Warriors? the answer to all 3 is Yes, Can you tell me all your marines are 10k old? yes you can*I still doubt any are 10k year old Dudes due to warp dicking with time* and finally is there not a whole handfull of codices you can use for your army? again yeah.

 

 

TBH I don't care if I sound like an ass but this IS the reason I stopped playing Khorne not the codex well sort of, because it became Codex:Whiny Marines Do not get me wrong I hope there is a day when I can proudly wear the mark of Khorne upon my neck and field a tide of brass and red Anger or when Huron Blackheart can continue to Succeed in the places that armless abby could not. I will wear the label Jumper of Codex or Bandwagoner before I return to the most upset group of gamers. So yeah you got a bung codex the best way of fixing it is not to add silly rules of the last codex hell why not give them allies ect ect. You Will more than likely get a update before 6th if not soon after and it may or may not be better or worse either way people will complain about it that is fact. BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE AND ADMIRATION OF THE DARK GODS QUIT THE YOU KNOW WHAT.

 

Even with your last pose OP your fix to the Problem is also what ruined the old codex Some will outshine others by a fair margin like Word Bearer Daemonbombs and Ironwarrio boom spam its not helping make new and interesting lists its limiting useful ones to the same levels as the competitive lists of now.

 

 

Sorry, didn't understand a word of that.

[Saa]

WCI I'll be honest that made me laugh my ass off. However to play devils advocate NO ONE has ever summed it up better than M2C in a previous post of 'want a good codex? Shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor'

 

It's the standard responce I get at my LGS and it make me laugh my ass off.

 

Edit : reading between the lines Dammeron I think the previous poster is saying he's sick of ppl moaning about our current dex. He just doesn't feel our pain :P

[the jeske]

reward for a suitably prohibitive points cost per model.

if it is that then it wont be used , because it would suck . options that suck and arent used to not exist .

 

 

BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE AND ADMIRATION OF THE DARK GODS QUIT THE YOU KNOW WHAT.

why ? If chaos players didnt say how much they hate the dex they have right now then

A the 5th ed would look differently [when DA and chaos went life we told that all codex in the future were supppose to be like this . oddly non were] which includes the BAs you seem to play [wild guess from me here] .

 

B if the out cry about the chaos dex is not constant GW will decide on the chaos future this way . Dislike posts stoped => new players dont know how old chaos or other codex for other armies look like => all is good no need for change . That would suck , for us not for you of course . Also I find it worth the lol that you stoped playing khorn because other chaos players seem to be unhappy about the dex . LoL in deed or maybe the dex was just not flexible/boring enough to ditch it ? see you find codex hoping ok , but some people like to play chaos for chaos and not being told "well you could use codex SW/BA/GK for that".

 

C. the history knows small comunities [chaos was huge once ] that waited for the next codex to be awesome . look up what the SoBs get in their new WD dex . +Am not sure how long you play this is not the first time that GW made a craptastic chaos dex . Back in 3ed we had the JJ dex which was so bad [not just for players . it didnt sell models something very important for GW] they started making IA articles for use to modifie the boring armies of JJ dex.

 

Even with your last pose OP your fix to the Problem is also what ruined the old codex Some will outshine others by a fair margin like Word Bearer Daemonbombs and Ironwarrio boom spam its not helping make new and interesting lists its limiting useful ones to the same levels as the competitive lists of now.

so having multiple viable builds out of a single codex is bad , right ? it is not like the BAs you play have more then a few playable builds . Same with SW . Even the specilized armies like GK have more then one . Or am I understanding this wrong and you somehow want to make a chaos dex that is for 9 chaos legions +renegades that is fluffy , but indentical in game play for all of those at the same time . I dont think even Chambers could do a dex like that.

me can your marines be painted as Alpha Legion? how about Word bearers? or Iron Warriors? the answer to all 3 is Yes, Can you tell me all your marines are 10k old

and all 3 of those armies will be identical . When a SW , Ultra and BA army list will look like this Libby 3 tacs 3 preds[no other hvy support viable] no FA[no viable] no elite[no viable] , then we can talk about if having your army painted the right color [when a good part of the comunity does not care about painting] is enough to make the players that picked those armies happy.

And before you say this is just a chaos whine fest thing , go ask the DA green wing players how they feel about codex sm ? specialy if someone doesnt let them use belial .

[Saa]

@ Jeske. I suspect we'll be chaos ascendant again. Nothing could be worse than the current 2x DP oblit PM fest that we have now. I understand that you're not a fluff whore like me but it makes me sick also to see chaos degenerate to a one trick pony.

 

Even if Cptn Ward of the 1st Awesome Invincible Fluff Brigade gets our dex we should still have a cpl of competitive lists compared to our current lash dross-fest

 

Living with hope is better than resigning yourself to defeat

[the jeske]

Nothing could be worse than the current 2x DP oblit PM fest that we have now.

Ill probably get a warning for this , but . look around for the chaos 3ed codex made by JJ. then look at the sob dex you dont even need the second part. go tunel vision and wonder how a chaos sm dex could look like . Am sure you will think up some stuff to make it worse.

 

small example. GW decides that people dont like chaos because gav dex made it boring . all units are viable [well that is what GW will say] but some are used more then others[aka others arent used at all] .why? units are too much the same , too much orderly . solution? make chaos more chaosy by making it more random . you buy zerkers but you check what they do by rolling . you buy pms but you check what disease they have by rolling . 1ksons asp sorc cast random powers . NM ? drugs again random with chance of wounding/killing your own models.

[Evisser]

First off we all understand that C:CSM is bad this can't be argued.

 

I have to start out by saying I disagree with Jeske to a point. IMO Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Space Marines can be very similar in armies but each have their own strengths and weaknesses leading to different army compositions. Space Marines with their strong ranged firepower and shootyness plus the ability to give all of the army a certain ability based on HQ choice. Blood Angels can field assault squads as troops and easily spread FnP with their priests. Space Wolves have their long fangs and the ability to combine power and termie armor in squads making them quite adaptable. These points are very generic but illustrates what I am trying to say.

 

This leads into my next point. There is no point in talking about fluff of different legions and how warbands are so different when it comes to actual gameplay. GW would have to add many new units and rules to make individual legions and warbands viable while still sticking the the fluff. Basically with C:Chaos Legions on the horizon (hopefully) GW is either going to add a large amount of "stuff" to chaos or be a massive flop like the current one is.

[Lord_Caerolion]

First off we all understand that C:CSM is bad this can't be argued.

 

I have to start out by saying I disagree with Jeske to a point. IMO Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Space Marines can be very similar in armies but each have their own strengths and weaknesses leading to different army compositions. Space Marines with their strong ranged firepower and shootyness plus the ability to give all of the army a certain ability based on HQ choice. Blood Angels can field assault squads as troops and easily spread FnP with their priests. Space Wolves have their long fangs and the ability to combine power and termie armor in squads making them quite adaptable. These points are very generic but illustrates what I am trying to say.

 

And Chaos used to be able to do almost exactly that same amount of variance, if not more (I'm looking at you, Dark Angels...), and apparently we can deal with it just fine, so it can't be that essential for Loyalists.

 

This leads into my next point. There is no point in talking about fluff of different legions and how warbands are so different when it comes to actual gameplay. GW would have to add many new units and rules to make individual legions and warbands viable while still sticking the the fluff. Basically with C:Chaos Legions on the horizon (hopefully) GW is either going to add a large amount of "stuff" to chaos or be a massive flop like the current one is.

 

Again, wrong. They managed to do it before, they can do it again. Any "stuff" they add is just returning what got taken away before. Good Chaos books have always been large. It needs to be for what it is. GW needs to learn that streamlining isn't exactly the best thing for one of the most varied armies in 40k.

[Brother Ambroz]

@Whitefireinferno- If you don't like it then don't read the chaos forum? You say you quit because of this then why keep bothering us?

 

@Evisser- You can make a combination of both using gifts and vet skills like OP was saying. Like he was also saying put limitations on it so we're not insanely powerful like before. This way we each have our own armies tailored to the way we like it etc etc.

[Slayer le Boucher]

TLDR; Now the NEXT STUFF WILL BE IN RED i.e. rose coloured so you lot will need to remove those glasses for a minute.

OKAY WE GET IT. Chaos got dealt a bung hand OP tbh I read the first 3 lines of your first post and knew what the rest held in store for me.

 

Yes the 3.5 codex was good maybe a little too good at the time it is now also gone and you get the 4th ed dex tell me can your marines be painted as Alpha Legion? how about Word bearers? or Iron Warriors? the answer to all 3 is Yes, Can you tell me all your marines are 10k old? yes you can*I still doubt any are 10k year old Dudes due to warp dicking with time* and finally is there not a whole handfull of codices you can use for your army? again yeah.

 

 

TBH I don't care if I sound like an ass but this IS the reason I stopped playing Khorne not the codex well sort of, because it became Codex:Whiny Marines Do not get me wrong I hope there is a day when I can proudly wear the mark of Khorne upon my neck and field a tide of brass and red Anger or when Huron Blackheart can continue to Succeed in the places that armless abby could not. I will wear the label Jumper of Codex or Bandwagoner before I return to the most upset group of gamers. So yeah you got a bung codex the best way of fixing it is not to add silly rules of the last codex hell why not give them allies ect ect. You Will more than likely get a update before 6th if not soon after and it may or may not be better or worse either way people will complain about it that is fact. BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE AND ADMIRATION OF THE DARK GODS QUIT THE YOU KNOW WHAT.

 

Even with your last pose OP your fix to the Problem is also what ruined the old codex Some will outshine others by a fair margin like Word Bearer Daemonbombs and Ironwarrio boom spam its not helping make new and interesting lists its limiting useful ones to the same levels as the competitive lists of now.

 

 

Sorry, didn't give a damn of that.

 

That whas what you meant no? ^^

[Warsmith Aznable]

small example. GW decides that people dont like chaos because gav dex made it boring . all units are viable [well that is what GW will say] but some are used more then others[aka others arent used at all] .why? units are too much the same , too much orderly . solution? make chaos more chaosy by making it more random . you buy zerkers but you check what they do by rolling . you buy pms but you check what disease they have by rolling . 1ksons asp sorc cast random powers . NM ? drugs again random with chance of wounding/killing your own models.

 

I'm terrified you might be right about this. I well and truly despise the idea that Chaos = LOLRANDOM, but for some reason GW seems to think that not being in control of your own toys is what Chaos Marines players want or need. Taking the Crazed rule and extrapolating it out to the rest of the codex would be the exact wrong thing to do, but I can totally see GW doing it in the manner you describe.

[Doghouse]

why ? If chaos players didnt say how much they hate the dex they have right now then

A the 5th ed would look differently [when DA and chaos went life we told that all codex in the future were supppose to be like this . oddly non were]

 

I agree as I think this is the main contributing factor of the down fall of the chaos codex, the timing of it's conception. For some unknown reason they turned to blandness for inspiration, I like the idea of chaos marine warbands as opposed to Legion armies but the rules let them and the legion players down badly.

 

I'd love to see cultists make it into a new dex and a return to proper daemons rather than evil-lite versions purely for character. I suspect it was to do with the plans for the Daemon armies that they bought out as some attempt to separate the two and the current dex coming a little too late to benefit from the new format of the army lists.

 

I never power gamed with the 4th edition codex but there was a lot more character in it than this renegades version.

[Trevak Dal]

Gentlemen, I think there may be some hope. I've come across a Fan Codex over at Dakka Dakka created by the user Just Dave. While my experience is limited with Chaos Space Marines, it seems pretty good, and relatively balanced. Here's a link to the front page of the thread he has it in (he has a download for it in PDF form in the first post)

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340878.page

 

It allows you to have Legion specific abilities without having to resort to getting a "Vulkan" to make Salamanders. You can buy an upgrade of a 'Warband' (the 9 legions as well as 'Renegade') on the HQ of your choice (Daemon Prince, Lord, Sorceror-though special HQ characters (abaddon, Khârn etc) are already equipped with their appropriate warband thing (Black Legion, World Eaters, etc)). You can have access to two 'Warbands' options (1 per HQ choice) with access to Warband/Legion specific units and abilities (Operatives for Alpha Legion, Sorcorer's Coven for K-Sons (elite unit of Aspiring Sorcerors), Night Lords make Raptors Troops, Iron Warriors get their Basilisks back-but no extra heavy slot, Renegades can Combat squad non Cult units) Daemons have the current statline, but can take icons with appropriate abilities (Mark of Khorne grants +1 WS, +1A and Furious Charge I think, Tzeentch reduces their ws to 3, removes an A and gives them +1 to the invulnerable save, along with making them BS4 with a storm bolter equivalent.)

 

It allows Legion specific fluff, as well as Noob Chaos Space Marines (complete with combat squading guys) and allows for customization of your own, HQ characters beyond Daemon Prince "The Artist" with lash of Submission and Daemon Prince "Bat-man" with Wings.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

TLDR; Now the NEXT STUFF WILL BE IN RED i.e. rose coloured so you lot will need to remove those glasses for a minute.

OKAY WE GET IT. Chaos got dealt a bung hand OP tbh I read the first 3 lines of your first post and knew what the rest held in store for me.

 

Yes the 3.5 codex was good maybe a little too good at the time it is now also gone and you get the 4th ed dex tell me can your marines be painted as Alpha Legion? how about Word bearers? or Iron Warriors? the answer to all 3 is Yes, Can you tell me all your marines are 10k old? yes you can*I still doubt any are 10k year old Dudes due to warp dicking with time* and finally is there not a whole handfull of codices you can use for your army? again yeah.

 

 

TBH I don't care if I sound like an ass but this IS the reason I stopped playing Khorne not the codex well sort of, because it became Codex:Whiny Marines Do not get me wrong I hope there is a day when I can proudly wear the mark of Khorne upon my neck and field a tide of brass and red Anger or when Huron Blackheart can continue to Succeed in the places that armless abby could not. I will wear the label Jumper of Codex or Bandwagoner before I return to the most upset group of gamers. So yeah you got a bung codex the best way of fixing it is not to add silly rules of the last codex hell why not give them allies ect ect. You Will more than likely get a update before 6th if not soon after and it may or may not be better or worse either way people will complain about it that is fact. BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE AND ADMIRATION OF THE DARK GODS QUIT THE YOU KNOW WHAT.

 

Even with your last pose OP your fix to the Problem is also what ruined the old codex Some will outshine others by a fair margin like Word Bearer Daemonbombs and Ironwarrio boom spam its not helping make new and interesting lists its limiting useful ones to the same levels as the competitive lists of now.

 

 

Sorry, didn't understand a word of that.

It's a side effect of typing without considering commonly accepted sentence structure. This is rather annoying because not even the people who speak English fluently understand such posts, much less the ones who don't :)

 

To contribute to the thread, I am once again putting out the theory of a similar system to Space Wolf sagas, only army wide changes as well as HQ changes.

 

An example would be:

 

Word Bearers: If taken, one Chaos Lord in your army is given a power weapon and Bjorn's Ward of the Primarch (the one that makes him an objective) special rule. If you have not taken a Lord, then one HQ in your army ignores armour saves in CC and is given the same special rule. All units in the army may take Fearless, and may also purchase Stubborn for X points.

 

Or something like that. I believe that is the idea the OP was going for, correct?