Noob DC and tactical squad questions

[Hebime]

Hey all:

 

I just started playing 40k and I chose the blood angels as my army. I was reading in the codex that for the death company the troops can have the following:

-boltgun or a bolt pistol

-chainsword

 

So I assumed that each model could have a bolt gun and a chainsword. But when I went to assemble them, the boltguns seem like they are two handed weapons. So I got confused about wheater this was legal or not. If it is legal, is there any advantage to using a chainsword with a bolt pistol?

 

Also the same problem would arise when assembling a regular tactical squad. The codex says that they have a boltgun and a bolt pistol. If the boltgun is placed on the model than does the player just assume that the model has a bolt pistol as well?

 

I realize that these are really noob questions but any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[Meltaface]

Yes its legal. You need to cut the bolter off and find another suitable arm. When using chainsword I usually pick bolt pistol because you get +1 attack. I take bolters on guys with thunder hammer/power fist or lightning claw.

 

Edit: Actually you don't even need to show off the chainswords since they're default equipment and useless with a bolter.

 

Also the same problem would arise when assembling a regular tactical squad. The codex says that they have a boltgun and a bolt pistol. If the boltgun is placed on the model than does the player just assume that the model has a bolt pistol as well?

 

 

In this case: Yes.

[AustonT]

If you model your DC with a Boltgun the chainsword has no function and therefor may be modeled but doesn't have to be. In the case of the Tactical Squad the bolt pistol must be modeled because it does serve a function. The ability to fire a pistol instead of a rapid fire weapon allows the Tacs to fire and assault. Should you choose to use this ability it must be modeled and cannot be assumed.

[sp4rky]

I thought it was generally assumed that any wargear that comes "as standard" i.e. Grenades and Pistols didn't really need to be modelled, only the "extras" like Meltaguns or Fists absolutely needed to be present.

 

A quick look over my models here shows not a single grenade on them yet they come with grenades. Fair enough, a Meltabomb would need to be shown if equipped.

[Hebime]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I see why the pistol would be a better choice for close combat.

The only thing that I want clarify is why would having boltgun and chainsword be useless? I understand that if the marine shoots he wouldn't be able to assault but if the enemy is in the 24" range and too far to assault wouldn't it be better to have the option just to shoot?

[overkongen]

If you have a chainsword and a bolt pistol you get an extra attack in close combat. Also, since the DC is relentless you can assault even if you shot with bolters.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Firstly, to the OP, welcome to the forum and the hobby! I hope the Emeperor bblesses you and lets you smite all your enemies! :)

 

sp4rky, I'm not convinced that meltabombs need to be shown, do they? I mean, even at tournament level, is that really going to be an issue? How many people stick their final five points into meltabombs because they can't be bothered finding a neater solution to their points total? Generally I agree that you have to model non-standard equipment, but I don't think meltabombs count. They're titchy little things... :D

 

So far as the original question goes, it's a good question and you shouldn't worry about asking. Definitely something that's worth clarifying with people before you go gluing your models together!

 

You asked a few questions, so we'll break it down bit by bit:

 

Q: I got confused about wheater this was legal or not. If it is legal, is there any advantage to using a chainsword with a bolt pistol?

 

A: Yes, it's entirely legal. As you say, the codex specifically says that the Death Company are equipped with "Boltgun or bolt pistol" and also with "Chainsword". You get to decide between the boltgun and the bolt pistol yourself - the chainsword is there regardless. One of the fun things to do in a modeling sense is to have a Space Marine holding a traditionally two-handed gun like a boltgun in one hand, showing how powerful and well-trained he is. So if you want to, you can model both chainsword and either boltgun or bolt pistol on your model.

 

And yes, there is an advantage to using a chainsword with a bolt pistol. Because pistols count as close-combat weapons, if your model is equipped with both a bolt pistol (or, in fact, any kind of pistol at all!) and a chainsword, you will get an additional close-combat attack at all times. So the Death Company, who have two basic attacks, would have three attacks with a close-combat weapon - and that goes up to a ridiculous four attacks if they both have an additional close-combat weapon and also get the charge.

 

Brilliantly, if one of your close-combat weapons is a power weapon (doesn't matter which of them is a power weapon), then every single close-combat attack counts as a power weapon attack. So, in the case of your Death Company with a bolt pistol, if you gave him a power weapon instead of his chainsword, then those four attacks we were talking about on the charge all become power weapon attacks, which ignore armour saves completely.

 

Finally, while there's an advantage to equipping a bolt pistol with a chainsword, there's also a counter-advantage to using the boltgun. The boltgun has an increased range or rate of fire over the bolt pistol, which is situationally useful. For example, although both the shooting attacks and the close-combat attacks are essentially the same in terms of chance to hit and chance to wound, the shooting attack comes without the risk of anyone hitting you back. If you find yourself in combat with those pesky Eldar or Dark Eldar, there's a good chance they're going to hit you either first or at the same time as you hit them. If you shoot them instead, that threat doesn't exist as much.

 

 

Q: If the boltgun is placed on the model than does the player just assume that the model has a bolt pistol as well?

 

A: Yes. The rule book says that wargear which is given as an upgrade option for your models must be modeled, but it says absolutely nothing about wargear which is given to your models as standard. The accepted rule is that if wargear is given to a model as standard, there's no strict need to actually model it on the figure itself. So, while your models have boltgun and bolt pistol and could absolutely be modeled with both, there's no need to concern yourself about it if you'd prefer them only to be modeled with one or the other. Using this rule lets you create some variety in your models and their poses - for example, in my Assault Squad which includes two Space Marines armed with meltaguns, I

have

to model the meltaguns, but I can then choose whether I will also model a chainsword on the model. Because the whole squad is armed as standard with bolt pistols and chainswords, in some instances I've given one model two bolt pistols and given another two chainswords. It's still entirely clear that they're part of the same unit and they've got nothing in terms of their wargear which will confuse an opponent.

 

A good rule of thumb if you're unsure, however, is just to clarify with your opponent before a game. If you've modeled your Tactical Squad with bolt pistols instead of boltguns, it's the work of two-and-a-half seconds to say to your opponent "this is a Tactical Squad and it has boltguns and bolt pistols". Simple!

 

Hopefully this is helpful and you can go on to model your army into a massive crazy-looking force of destruction!

[Brother_Byhlli]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I see why the pistol would be a better choice for close combat.

The only thing that I want clarify is why would having boltgun and chainsword be useless? I understand that if the marine shoots he wouldn't be able to assault but if the enemy is in the 24" range and too far to assault wouldn't it be better to have the option just to shoot?

 

Another good question. Keep 'em coming!

 

As you say, the pistol is always the better choice for close-combat. There are two reasons for that - firstly, you get an additional attack because the pistol counts as an additional close-combat weapon (see the BRB p.42 for full details of close-combat weapons). Secondly, in normal situations a model that fires a boltgun cannot then charge. Because of the type of weapon the boltgun is ("Rapid Fire"), you can normally either shoot or charge with it (see the BRB p.28 for full details of Rapid Fire and other weapon types!). However, because the Death Company have the Special Rule "Relentless" (Universal Special rules start on BRB p.74!), the Death Company have the option of firing as if they haven't moved, even if they have moved - and they also get the option of charging after firing Rapid Fire or Heavy weapons, which is a great benefit. So, if you want to, your Death Company can move their 6" movement and then still fire 24" with their boltguns, or they can move 6", rapid fire their boltguns into an enemy unit that is within 6" and still charge it.

 

As you say, it's often better to have the option of a longer range of firing and we tend to use long-range fire bases for exactly that. We're talking about things like Tactical Squads with missile launchers or Devastator Squads with four heavy weapons. These are units that cannot fire if they move so they tend to stay in the backline of our army without moving and use their extra long range to shoot at enemy units from afar. While the Death Company have a 24" range on their boltguns, however, it's definitely fair to say that the main strength of Death Company lies in close-combat. It's generally a good idea to focus a unit to do one thing and since the Death Company are naturally so good in combat it only makes sense to equip them specifically for it. My personal advice in most situations would be to equip Death Company with bolt pistols over boltguns, but I know there are others who will disagree with me.

[Hebime]

@Brother_Byhlli thanks for the warm welcome! I too hope the Emperor provides such fortune! :)

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You definitely clarified everything. I greatly appreciate it.

[Quixus]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I see why the pistol would be a better choice for close combat.

The only thing that I want clarify is why would having boltgun and chainsword be useless?

The combination is not useless the chainsword just does not add anything above the boltgun. A model always gets the number of attacks in its profile (in case of the DC that's 2). A Chainsword is a CCW and does nothing on its own. So the DC would still only get 2 attacks (+Charge bonus). There are some special weapons (PF, TH, LC) that need another special weapon of the same type. A pistol would not be enough. Unless you want to go for two special weapons on such a model a Boltgun will give more ranged power without sacrificing anything in CC. The main drawback of the Boltgun (no shooting and charging) is circumvented by the DC's special rule Relentless.

[Brother_Byhlli]

@Brother_Byhlli thanks for the warm welcome! I too hope the Emperor provides such fortune! :P

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You definitely clarified everything. I greatly appreciate it.

 

Glad to help, brother!

[AustonT]

I didn't actually say it was useless, I said when paired with a Boltgun it serves no function. You need two CCWs to gain an extra attack. It's like modeling a tactical marine with a combat knife: it looks menacing but functionally does nothing. With a Boltgun on your DC you can doubletap your target and THEN charge so if the model has no upgrades you get an extra shot (over pistols) plus a charge. It evens out on the charge but in subsequent round 2 CCW is superior.

 

Unlike previous BRBs THIS rulebook actually has WYSIWYG in it. There is no differentiation in the rules between optional and standard equipment.

 

Yes, in this case I am taking the hard line. The essential point of WYSIWYG is that an army list or Codex doesnt have to be consulted. I shouldn't be expected to memorize every codex to know YOUR standard equipment. If you model your tactical marines with floating noodles and water wings I assume he's going for a swim.unless your are representing your blotter and grenades with your witty summer apparel.

[JamesI]

So, Auston, do you model grenades on every model? Tac boxes don't come with enough pistols to model everyone with a pistol. Same for Dev boxes. Its just not going to happen.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Actually, the rule book clearly distinguishes between standard equipment and optional upgrades:

 

Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use... the rule is that such equipment must be visually represented...

 

In fact if you wanted to be particularly obtuse you could arguably read that rule to mean that only character models have to visually represent such equipment, but I think that's silly.

 

It's widely agreed that standard equipment on models absolutely does not have to be modeled.

 

As JamesI says: grenades are the standard line of argument. Alternatively, do your Chaplains/Reclusiarchs/Astorath the Grim/Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost models show their rosarius? Heck, I don't even know what a rosarius is, never mind how to model one. Mephiston has a very clearly-modeled psychic hood, but how many other Space Marine Librarians do? When you model your Tactical Squads, do you genuinely put a boltgun and a bolt pistol and frag grenades and krak grenades on every single model? Somehow I doubt it.

 

Conversely, some equipment upgrades quite clearly do not have to be modeled: locator beacons, melta bombs or extra armour, for example. I've never seen any of those items modeled and I doubt I'd be thrown out of a tournament for not modeling my Sergeant's melta bombs on the actual figure.

 

The bottom line of WYSIWYG is that it's a damnably stupid rule that's enforced half-heartedly when at all. The reason being that the game has far too great a variety of models, equipment and upgrade options to demand that everyone follows the rule slavishly.

 

So long as you follow common sense you'll be fine. And remember, as I already said earlier: if you're unsure whether your model is clear enough, just tell your opponent.

[Brother Chris]

For what its worth, Astorath and Corbulo both have bolt pistols they aren't modelled with.

 

And what is Tycho's 'Deadman's hand', unless it is just his hand....?

 

I think it is quite fun the DC can be modelled with all kinds of weapons, including bolters in one hand and chainswords in the other. All you are really chosing is whether you get an extra shot then attack (on relentless) or an extra attack once you assault. Mainly, given that Close combat is what the DC are all about, we would chose to model them with pistols, and save the bolters for giving character to Tactical marines.

[AustonT]

@James whenever possible I do yes. But to be fair I use a lot of metal models that are molded on, and few of my newest models have accessories on thier belts at all, but I seem to recall the 3rd Ed BRB specifically referred to grenades not needing to be modeled. The reason there aren't enough pistols in either devs or tacs is rather simple, the codex they were designed in didn't allow both Bolters and Bolt pistols or rather tacs could exchange thier bolters for bp and cs.

 

@Byhili the Rosarius is the crux, most often modeled on the neck of the chaplain models and included in every box of terminators.

 

"Conversely, some equipment upgrades quite clearly do not have to be modeled: locator beacons, melta bombs or extra armour, for example. I've never seen any of those items modeled and I doubt I'd be thrown out of a tournament for not modeling my Sergeant's melta bombs on the actual figure."

 

This is patently untrue with the possible exception of extra armor. There is a model for locator beacons and Melta bombs. Easily obtainable and produced in plastic kits.

 

The rule book also does not refer only to characters it is referring to weapons and wargear.

 

The question the OP asked was not about WYSIWYG. The question was that if a model has a Boltgun do you ASSUME the model also has a BP. The answer is no. In cases where it is impossible or improbable you may simply tell your opponent what's up.

As JamesI rightly pointed out not every model has grenades. That's when you do your, "these aren't the droits you're looking for" wave and tell your opponent. This squad has BPs, frag and krak grenades but I haven't enough pieces so some have BPs some have grenades and some are holding eldar heads.

You are free to interpret and model as you like, you and your opponent are agreeing to play a game by a set of contrived rules in which your joint decisions are king as illustrated.

 

"I wish 40K said the sky was blue or orange. Usually it's more like, "If you and your mate agree, the sky is a pastel blue with a +1 to ballistic skill if LOS is within elevation; otherwise the sky is grey-blue and all skimmers get an extra turn of movement, keeping in mind the little boxed rule hidden later in this book that clearly states that since sky is always teal no one with a sense of fairplay would hide all their warmarmots in the deployment zone."

 

This comment oddly enough is from a thread about the same blotter BP debate.

[Morollan]

There is a model for locator beacons and Melta bombs. Easily obtainable and produced in plastic kits.

 

I can recognise melta bombs on the plastic sprues but which bit is the locator beacon? What kit is is it in?

[JamesI]

There is a model for locator beacons and Melta bombs. Easily obtainable and produced in plastic kits.

 

I can recognise melta bombs on the plastic sprues but which bit is the locator beacon? What kit is is it in?

If I recall correctly its in the tactical terminator kit.

[Morollan]

Ah, that would be why I've not seen it. Only Tactical Terminators in my collection are from Space Hulk (various editions).

[AustonT]

Yeah the Locator Beacon/Teleport Homer is in the Tactical Terminator box. I also tend to think of the Auspex bit as useable for the locator beacon since Auspex aren't a wargear item anymore.

[Brother Chris]

That all seems a bit anal. The standard wargear hardly needs to be modelled. Has Lemartes got a Rosarius? who knows. It is standard to his wargear. ditto the bolt pistols on the Tactical marines. Because, due to heroic scale, the bolt pistol in the hand is so much bigger than it would be on the belt, it is very difficult to model this. It is variant wargear that should be modelled, for ease of identification.

 

I think it quite sad to think that players in what should be a fun activitiy might get het up about whether something is specifically modelled or not. A quite heads up on what units have what grenades at the start of a game should be suficient enough. It is these silly attitudes which make life so daunting for new players.

 

I'm pretty sure the locator is in the assualt box. At least I have something which came in that box I use. Pretty sure the Crux is not the same thing as the Rosarius, either.

[AustonT]

I Tend to BE a bit anal, like I can tell you the deadmans hand is modeled on Tychos left hand, Lemartes and Astorath don't have a Rosarius which bugs the living excrement out of me. The Rosarius and Crux Terminatus are not the same thing but for as long as I can remember the Rosarius has been modeled as a small crux on both chaplains and termies. The plastic termies have half a sprue of them, and on the GW website you can spot all the unnamed chaplains Rosari.

 

This is all secondary to the original question, which I hope has been answered. The little plastic spacemen you own can be modeled however you want. If you and I play I might ask you to see your list if you claim items I don't see like Melta bombs, which apparently some members of this board don't model. That being the case I'm more than happy to consult lists but I shy away from playing with people I don't know, or the friends of people I know at least. And I have all the time in the world. Ultimately it comes down to where and who you play, among friends just about anything goes, in league play a general consensus may agree on what may, must, or should be present. And in tournament play the TO publishes rules.

I agree to disagree on other peoples interpretation of what must and must not be on the model. But I'll still PLAY anything.

[Leonaides]

I Tend to BE a bit anal, like I can tell you the deadmans hand is modeled on Tychos left hand, Lemartes and Astorath don't have a Rosarius which bugs the living excrement out of me. The Rosarius and Crux Terminatus are not the same thing but for as long as I can remember the Rosarius has been modeled as a small crux on both chaplains and termies. The plastic termies have half a sprue of them, and on the GW website you can spot all the unnamed chaplains Rosari.

 

This is all secondary to the original question, which I hope has been answered. The little plastic spacemen you own can be modeled however you want. If you and I play I might ask you to see your list if you claim items I don't see like Melta bombs, which apparently some members of this board don't model. That being the case I'm more than happy to consult lists but I shy away from playing with people I don't know, or the friends of people I know at least. And I have all the time in the world. Ultimately it comes down to where and who you play, among friends just about anything goes, in league play a general consensus may agree on what may, must, or should be present. And in tournament play the TO publishes rules.

I agree to disagree on other peoples interpretation of what must and must not be on the model. But I'll still PLAY anything.

 

And I can tell you that there is no physical representation for the Deadmans Hand - since when the Tycho model was created it didnt exist - as far as what is actually modeled on him its digi-weapons I'm afraid.

Chaplains and rosarius' (rosarii maybe? - hmmm, all sorts of fun to be had there methinks) - well perhaps those models were created when terminator honours were a wargear choice and people tended to want their heroes to have that sort of ornamentation. Added to the fact that a Rosarius is "a gorget or amulet worn by space marine chaplains. It bears the symbol of an Imperial Eagle or a Terminator Cross..." - so while both ornaments are technically separate, a Rosarius can be adequately represented by a Crux Terminatus. For other variants, might I suggest the Space Wolf Wolf Pries models - certainly Ulrik had a different one on the model. And Lemartes' rosarius is, i believe, to be found on his jump pack on the back of the pack.

 

 

Edit - spelling and: Astorath does have a Rosarius - a small necklace chain with a skull and crossed bones behind it around his neck

[Brother Chris]

I should add that I only think these issues are problems if they clog up your gaming experience. They are the meat and drink of the discussions on the forum! My own preference is for things with a game effect to be modelled, so I have raging sergeants for units with the red thirst. I tend to pay the points for what the model happens to have on them, so if I modelled it with a melta bomb or a search light I pay the points to have it. I just think it is nicer to see things on the board but I wouldn't die in a ditch if my opponent didn't have as many figures or like it says in the rules just wanted to try out something different.

[AustonT]

I Tend to BE a bit anal, like I can tell you the deadmans hand is modeled on Tychos left hand, Lemartes and Astorath don't have a Rosarius which bugs the living excrement out of me. The Rosarius and Crux Terminatus are not the same thing but for as long as I can remember the Rosarius has been modeled as a small crux on both chaplains and termies. The plastic termies have half a sprue of them, and on the GW website you can spot all the unnamed chaplains Rosari.

 

This is all secondary to the original question, which I hope has been answered. The little plastic spacemen you own can be modeled however you want. If you and I play I might ask you to see your list if you claim items I don't see like Melta bombs, which apparently some members of this board don't model. That being the case I'm more than happy to consult lists but I shy away from playing with people I don't know, or the friends of people I know at least. And I have all the time in the world. Ultimately it comes down to where and who you play, among friends just about anything goes, in league play a general consensus may agree on what may, must, or should be present. And in tournament play the TO publishes rules.

I agree to disagree on other peoples interpretation of what must and must not be on the model. But I'll still PLAY anything.

 

And I can tell you that there is no physical representation for the Deadmans Hand - since when the Tycho model was created it didnt exist - as far as what is actually modeled on him its digi-weapons I'm afraid.

Chaplains and rosarius' (rosarii maybe? - hmmm, all sorts of fun to be had there methinks) - well perhaps those models were created when terminator honours were a wargear choice and people tended to want their heroes to have that sort of ornamentation. Added to the fact that a Rosarius is "a gorget or amulet worn by space marine chaplains. It bears the symbol of an Imperial Eagle or a Terminator Cross..." - so while both ornaments are technically separate, a Rosarius can be adequately represented by a Crux Terminatus. For other variants, might I suggest the Space Wolf Wolf Pries models - certainly Ulrik had a different one on the model. And Lemartes' rosarius is, i believe, to be found on his jump pack on the back of the pack.

 

 

Edit - spelling and: Astorath does have a Rosarius - a small necklace chain with a skull and crossed bones behind it around his neck

Im making this my last post in this thread because I feel as though Im beating a dead horse. and it kind of hurts my head and its off the original topic.

 

1. The dead mans hand includes digiweapons, because digiweapons and a combimelta have always been Tycho's signatures. Blood Song didnt always have a name either. By your train of logic the combimelta he is holding isnt Blood Song because when the model was created it didnt exist. Those items were named because they were already on the model and part of Tychos fluff, briefly stolen from him in the PDF. Maybe it would have been easier if they just called it "Tycho's Left Hand" and "Tycho's Microwave Bangstick"

2. The rosarius has been modeled identically on every GW produced chaplain, Rune priests have always had a totem instead, the codex entry calls it a wolf amulet. A Crux Terminatus, and a Rosarius are not the same.

3. If the skull on Astorath is a rosarius all hail the Emperor of Mankind, Mephiston has a 4+ invul save.

4. I have to agree that Lemartes has his Rosarius on his Jump Pack