Assault Terminators vs. Death Company

[Brother_Byhlli]

Discuss.

[Morollan]

DC for me but I'm just not a fan of Blood Angel terminators outside of Space Hulk. I know TH/SS is the bee's knees of assault units but I just don't like them in this army. A horde of frothing, black armoured lunatics however...

[Mattylee]

DC for me but I'm just not a fan of Blood Angel terminators outside of Space Hulk. I know TH/SS is the bee's knees of assault units but I just don't like them in this army. A horde of frothing, black armoured lunatics however...

 

Agreed. I run TH/SS in a lot of my armies (particularly my Imperial Fists), but for Blood Angels I tend to prefer running Death Company if only to break up the monotony. Death Company have a LOT of options, which makes them a fun unit to build and paint and play. Whether or not they are as good is really secondary to me. They're good enough to win with and that's good enough.

 

Additionally, I tend to play themed armies and TH/SS Termies don't really fit my concept of the Blood Angels as well as Death Company. I try to make my Blood Angels more slicey-dicey than smashy-smashy.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Interesting. That's two for two to the Death Company. I tend towards the same conclusion, actually. The reason I was wondering is simply that I think a minimal-cost effective unit of Terminators is significantly cheaper than a minimal-cost effective unit of Death Company. Thinking about it not, though, I'm not convinced it's actually a significant difference at all:

 

5 Terminators

- 2 thunder hammer/storm shields

 

4 Death Company

- Chaplain

- Power weapon

- Power fist

 

210 points vs. 220 points and I couldn't see myself running either unit any lighter.

 

I agree that Death Company are also just more interesting, fluff-wise. I'm planning an all-Death Company list at the moment and I had contemplated putting a unit of Terminators in there, but I couldn't quite bring myself to do it.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone out there prefers Assault Terminators over Death Company?

[Brother Ben]

I am in the Death Company boat on this one. Morollan hit the nail on the head with:

 

A horde of frothing, black armoured lunatics however...

[JamesI]

I prefer Assault Terminators on the table. Sure, Death company are cooler fluffwise. But in game, assuming I was using a Land Raider or Stormraven, I'd chose Assault Terminators. Since I normally don't use raiders or ravens, then Dc in a rhino.

[sp4rky]

I used Assault Terminators for a few games a while back but, as other have said above, they just don't really fit the whole fast moving assault army. Although they were smashing (pun intended) when combined with a priest I just found them a bit boring.

 

Death Company do intrigue me but I'm not a good enough player to think about the complications that go along with Rage (LOS blocking, etc).

[Brother_Byhlli]

I prefer Assault Terminators on the table. Sure, Death company are cooler fluffwise. But in game, assuming I was using a Land Raider or Stormraven, I'd chose Assault Terminators. Since I normally don't use raiders or ravens, then Dc in a rhino.

 

Good to have a contrasting opinion on the table, buddy! Care to expand on why you prefer them?

[JamesI]

I prefer Assault Terminators on the table. Sure, Death company are cooler fluffwise. But in game, assuming I was using a Land Raider or Stormraven, I'd chose Assault Terminators. Since I normally don't use raiders or ravens, then Dc in a rhino.

 

Good to have a contrasting opinion on the table, buddy! Care to expand on why you prefer them?

Well, no rage for one. I dislike dealing with rage.

 

The 3+ invuls on a few of the Terminators, 5+ on the rest. Mix in a Librarian with unleash rage and you reroll to hit every turn, not just on the charge. Several of the models reroll to wound as well. A Priest (I would usually chose Corbulo hre) provides the furious charge and FNP.

 

Assault Terminators are slow, but so are DC without jump packs once they are out of their transport. And its a lot easier to control the Assault Terminators.

 

Plus, Space Hulk models.

 

 

I should be clear that my opinion is based on very few games. I've run DC in a rhino, haven't tried them in a Raven or Raider yet. And I don't have a lot of experience with assault terminators either.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Ok, interesting. My opinion is based similarly on extremely few games. In fact, I've played one game each with Terminators and Death Company, but I also watched in my Death Company game as my "frothing, black armoured lunatics" carved through a Terminator unit so quickly they almost didn't realise it had happened. I'm also using some mathhammer (the curse of the overly-analytical, I'm afraid!) to flesh out an idea of how powerful they are. (If you have a look at the end of this thread here you'll see how horrid Death Company can be by comparison with Terminators.)

 

Because my games are generally played on 4*4 boards, dealing with rage is rarely an issue. There's generally only one direction to head and that is towards the enemy, so even without rage I'd most likely be moving directly towards them anyway.

 

Also, by the time my Stormraven has disembarked the Death Company, I'm like a cat among pigeons. Doesn't matter which way I go, there's something tasty for me to sink my claws into.

 

I think that Terminators are superior in two settings: if you're taking significant amounts of plasma fire or similar, the negation of the armour save and Feel No Pain makes Terminators significantly more durable than Death Company; and if you're fighting something that has a higher initiative and power weapon attacks, such as Grey Knights with halberds, then you need to survive to strike back. That said, though, with Lemartes in the squad you're doing a world of hurt even before Genestealers or Grey Knights if you can contrive to get the charge off on them. He'll take out three Genestealers (or anything not using an invulnerable save) before he gets attacked and his ability to soak up a wound or two for the squad makes a big difference, too.

 

Hmmm, I'm rabbiting. I just got excited by my Death Company thoughts. If you have a minute, I'd appreciate your thoughts on my Death Company list which can be found in the Army Lists section. Always good to hear from others on the forum who have much more experience than me!

[Master-Inquisitor]

I've been thinking about this recently. I have only played a few games with the DC (I put them in a SR) and they are nuts. By turn two they drop with a DC dread and it's goodbye to whatever gets is their way. From those experiences I would say that I will always take the DC... they're just too good to pass up!

 

That being said however, I have been toying with the idea of adding some assault terminators in a LR. That seems to me to be the only way of making them worth it and the only way to have them keep up with the rest of the assault. But that means you need to add another SR or an LR which is a large points sink. Not that the DC are cheap. They could be a nice one-two punch and have RAS clean up whatever survives the initial assault. But I haven't tried this in game yet.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I played a game with Death Company and Reclusiarch in a Stormraven, two Assault Squads and an Honour Guard (1,250 points, I think?) and the Assault Squads almost struggled to keep up with the Death Company.

 

I'm going to try running several units of Death Company together, since I suspect that once they're set loose nothing can keep up with them! Assault Squads in my experience get bogged down in combat for at least a second assault phase. In the game I played with Death Company they had a charge in which they obliterated the target unit; were charged but still obliterated the target unit (despite losing the Reclusiarch, which makes them significantly less dangerous, though still a handful!); and then, minus the Reclusiarch and a couple of models who died to sustained small-arms fire, they charged a unit of five Terminators and three attached guys of no particular import (Black Templar army) and obliterated the Terminators in my opponent's assault phase. So, all told, they engaged three units and obliterated all three within four assault phases. Not too shabby. My two Assault Squads in the meantime obliterated... two squads? I think two, in total. One each. Four assault phases. With my Honour Guard backing them up with four rapid-firing plasma guns.

 

So, yeah. Death Company. Insane. Also, you're limited to 30 Terminators in the army compared with 180 Death Company... :blink:

[fivepointedstar]

DC are great an all, but only against xenos, for those player's like myself that play primarily against other SM players there "killyness" is not so uber as if I were to play with lesser armored enemy. After a total wipe out from terminators with SS, and a VV with PW, and SS combo I've been hesitant to unleash the dead men walking onto the field. Against other MEQ i use termies.

[Brother_Byhlli]

DC are great an all, but only against xenos, for those player's like myself that play primarily against other SM players there "killyness" is not so uber as if I were to play with lesser armored enemy. After a total wipe out from terminators with SS, and a VV with PW, and SS combo I've been hesitant to unleash the dead men walking onto the field. Against other MEQ i use termies.

 

Sorry, but while I accept Terminators are better in some regards than Death Company (actually in my opinion after much thought, I think they're only better in terms of durability and that only situationally), I will not accept that Terminators are more killy than Death Company - especially against Space Marines.

 

If you can give me one example of a unit of Terminators that I can't statistically out-kill with Death Company I'll eat my hat. Assume you're fighting standard Space Marines; assume you're fighting Terminators; whatever. I honestly think that there's no combination of Terminators - including connecting independent characters to the unit - that can kill more efficiently than Death Company.

 

Name your unit, I'll match your points with Death Company and we'll see what's what.

 

As I say - Terminators are undeniably more durable than Death Company. But no chance they're better at killing.

 

(In fact, I've already looked at an example squad: look at posts 24 and 25 in this thread.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I prefer assault terms to DC. A great deathstar unit is as follows:

 

Corbulo

Reclusiarch

5x term - 3x TH/SS

 

Put them in a Stormraven with a Furioso and go nuts.

 

G :)

[Brother_Byhlli]

I prefer assault terms to DC. A great deathstar unit is as follows:

 

Corbulo

Reclusiarch

5x term - 3x TH/SS

 

Put them in a Stormraven with a Furioso and go nuts.

 

G :D

 

That's another voice for Terminators, then! Is there a particular reason you prefer them to Death Company, buddy?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Pretty much for the reasons given... the main one being they are a lot more survivable. DC are too much of a glass hammer at best now... expensive, kills one unit at best then gets mowed down.

 

G :D

[Leonaides]

Interesting. That's two for two to the Death Company. I tend towards the same conclusion, actually. The reason I was wondering is simply that I think a minimal-cost effective unit of Terminators is significantly cheaper than a minimal-cost effective unit of Death Company. Thinking about it not, though, I'm not convinced it's actually a significant difference at all:

 

5 Terminators

- 2 thunder hammer/storm shields

 

4 Death Company

- Chaplain

- Power weapon

- Power fist

 

210 points vs. 220 points and I couldn't see myself running either unit any lighter.

 

I agree that Death Company are also just more interesting, fluff-wise. I'm planning an all-Death Company list at the moment and I had contemplated putting a unit of Terminators in there, but I couldn't quite bring myself to do it.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone out there prefers Assault Terminators over Death Company?

But thats 2 units combined into 1 for the DC. For the price of that chaplain, you could have 3 more DC with power weapons and upgrade your PF to a TH... Even without the chaplain attached, your DC will kick out more wounds than the Termies... Compare minimal cost-effective units with each other by all means, but at least make sure that you're not comparing minimal cost-effective units with upgraded-with-icing-on-top units...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can switch out Corbs for a generic Priest if you want to save a few points. That is one unit that wreck many things. I have no interest in one hit wonders like DC.

 

G :devil:

[Brother_Byhlli]

Interesting. That's two for two to the Death Company. I tend towards the same conclusion, actually. The reason I was wondering is simply that I think a minimal-cost effective unit of Terminators is significantly cheaper than a minimal-cost effective unit of Death Company. Thinking about it not, though, I'm not convinced it's actually a significant difference at all:

 

5 Terminators

- 2 thunder hammer/storm shields

 

4 Death Company

- Chaplain

- Power weapon

- Power fist

 

210 points vs. 220 points and I couldn't see myself running either unit any lighter.

 

I agree that Death Company are also just more interesting, fluff-wise. I'm planning an all-Death Company list at the moment and I had contemplated putting a unit of Terminators in there, but I couldn't quite bring myself to do it.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone out there prefers Assault Terminators over Death Company?

But thats 2 units combined into 1 for the DC. For the price of that chaplain, you could have 3 more DC with power weapons and upgrade your PF to a TH... Even without the chaplain attached, your DC will kick out more wounds than the Termies... Compare minimal cost-effective units with each other by all means, but at least make sure that you're not comparing minimal cost-effective units with upgraded-with-icing-on-top units...

 

I actually just did some number crunching, running formulas with the Death Company and I think I can now categorically say exactly how many Death Company you need to have with power weapons or standard close-combat weapons before it's mathematically worth giving them character rerolls. And it's absolutely terrifying reading.

 

For example, looking at a squad armed purely with power weapons, there's absolutely no statistical point in giving them any upgrade model at all (including Lemartes, who is the most cost-efficient of Lemartes, Chaplain, Reclusiarch and Astorath) until you have four or more power weapon-wielding models in the unit. Brilliantly, for standard close-combat weapons, it's worth adding Lemartes as soon as you have just one member of the squad; for Astorath (the least points-efficient character), it's six power weapon-wielding models or three standard close-combat weapons.

 

Just to be clear, this is all based on fighting against Space Marines. Curiously, while I imagined that the rerolls would count less as you reduce the toughness of the opponent, it turned out to b exactly the opposite - the weaker the opponent is, the more statistically viable an independent character is offering rerolls. I think.

 

So, I think I'll be rewriting my Death Company army list pretty sharpish....

 

:devil:

[Brother_Byhlli]

Additional: I have come to the decision that there are too many factors for me to accurately map and formulise. I haven't taken into account any kind of durability; invulnerable saves or additional wounds; ranged shooting which is improved by BS or by eg. infernus pistols; benefits conferred such as Astorath actually allowing you to field multiple units of Death Company, etc.

 

However, all that said, I think if you want to field a single Death Company you should pretty much only ever include Lemartes as your unit upgrade; if you want to take two or more units, obviously Astorath is your man - again, alongside Lemartes if you want another character upgrade. Chaplains and Reclusiarchs, however, are almost invariably not worth it until you're fielding a really rather large unit.

 

Wow. I've been lost in pencil and paper calculations for hours this evening; feverishly scribbling down fractions of increasing silliness and diligently punching them into my Excel spreadsheet only to conclude that the game's too complex for my to accurately map. How disappointing. And yet, at the same time, how much fun I've had!

 

:D

 

--BB

[SevenExxes]

DEATH COMPANY~!!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thunderwolves used to be very popular not so long ago. If you knew you'd be up against a SW army with TWC the rerolls would be very helpful (assuming you get the charge). Basically it requires six wounds (not counting any insta gibs or complex wound allocations) to drop one Thunderwolf kitted with a stormshield. So versus say four TWC with a Wolf Lord attached it would require 24 wounds to drop all of the TWC. Each Death Company Marine generates four attacks on the charge (not counting any power fists or thunder hammers)... Three hit per Marine and 1.5 wound, so it would require 16 to flatout kill them on the charge. It's not practical based upon the points required and how that would affect the build for the rest of your army... Plus you've still got to deal with the bad old Wolf Lord who probably has Saga of the Bear. :( A Furioso armed with a pair of Bloodfists on the other hand could easily drop two TWC on the charge plus there is a good chance the dreadnaught could survive the return attacks... Only a S10 power fist or thunderhammer stands a reasonable chance of penetrating AV 13 and then it's only 33% odds to wreck or destroy the dreadnaught.

 

This is what I was up against most of the time when playing my DoA list in tournaments. The meta however has shifted a bit and you don't see as many TWC units running around... Which I attribute to a plethora of dark eldar poisoned weapons and Grey Knights. The terminator unit I posted was pretty good at dealing with Thunderwolves and I specifically designed the unit to hunt them down.

 

G

[calgaryBA]

I don't have a whole lot of experience with death company because i've always been afraid of the black rage rules. So for me, assault terminators in a SR is my answer for problem spots.

 

I'm also a massive fan of terminator armor, and own several squads of assault terminators and tacticals more so just to collect the buggers than actually use.

 

Once in a blue moon, I'll field a bunch of them. I just wish Honor Guard had the option of taking terminator armor too. It would be incredibly fun to model a terminator standard bearer and champion. Of course i already have a couple priests :/

[Black Memories]

Both are really good, it really depends on the player and how that unit effects their army. If you're looking for a hammer unit, DC do as good a job as anything in the game. If you're looking for more of a hybird anvil/hammer then assault terminators are the best in the game.

 

One major issue in tournaments is if you fight any spacewolves. Death company get blasted apart by longfangs, terminators don't. That's a major advantage for the terminators. Also termies are less likely to be stuck in the open.

 

That said in my experience my DC tend to last a very long time in games, if they ever get wiped. Plenty of games they make it all the way through (granted with 1-2 models left). 1-2 DC models is more than enough to mow through a regular troop choice in other armies, especially if one of those two models is a wounded lemartes.

 

From a purely competitive point of view I'd say assault terminators are better, but if you aren't playing at an absolute top level tournament the death company led by lemartes in a raven can be far too much for some opponents to handle.