Assault Terminators vs. Death Company

[Morollan]

DC are great an all, but only against xenos, for those player's like myself that play primarily against other SM players there "killyness" is not so uber as if I were to play with lesser armored enemy. After a total wipe out from terminators with SS, and a VV with PW, and SS combo I've been hesitant to unleash the dead men walking onto the field. Against other MEQ i use termies.

 

I disagree. I generally play against MEQ and it's highly unusual for the DC not to waltz through whatever is put in front of them, as long as they get the charge. The huge number of attacks with rerolls to hit and wound forces so many saves that statistically there's very little that can survive. Against MEQ you are hitting on 3's (with rerolls) and wounding on 3's (with rerolls). With 9 DC (ignoring the chaplain/reclusiarch for the moment) that's 36 attacks, of which 32 hit (after rerolls) and 28 wounds (after rerolls). That's 9 dead MEQ right there. It's 5 dead Terminators for that matter. And that's without power weapons and not including the extra attacks from the chaplain/reclusiarch.

 

In fact, I've found that using a smaller unit (5+character) is often more desirable as I don't want to annihilate my opponent on my own turn. I want them to still be in combat on my opponents turn so as to avoid return fire. That's one of the reasons why 5 with JP's + Lemartes is sneaking it's way into my lists for forthcoming games.

[knife&fork]

In fact, I've found that using a smaller unit (5+character) is often more desirable as I don't want to annihilate my opponent on my own turn. I want them to still be in combat on my opponents turn so as to avoid return fire. That's one of the reasons why 5 with JP's + Lemartes is sneaking it's way into my lists for forthcoming games.

 

Considering how decisive combat resolution is in 5th ed I don't see myself getting stuck in with such a hard hitting unit very often. Careful positioning and consolidation movement is what will keep the assaulting units alive. Compared to terminators death company as are relatively fragile to return hits. With a unit as small as five you can't afford to stay engaged and take a lot of attacks, power weapons and fists are everywhere.

[Morollan]

In fact, I've found that using a smaller unit (5+character) is often more desirable as I don't want to annihilate my opponent on my own turn. I want them to still be in combat on my opponents turn so as to avoid return fire. That's one of the reasons why 5 with JP's + Lemartes is sneaking it's way into my lists for forthcoming games.

 

Considering how decisive combat resolution is in 5th ed I don't see myself getting stuck in with such a hard hitting unit very often. Careful positioning and consolidation movement is what will keep the assaulting units alive. Compared to terminators death company as are relatively fragile to return hits. With a unit as small as five you can't afford to stay engaged and take a lot of attacks, power weapons and fists are everywhere.

 

I work on the basis that there's going to be very little left at the end of my assault phase and I'll still get to strike first with the reclusiarch/lemartes who should take care of the remainder. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

[Zedrenael]

Through browsing most of the post on this page it seems people prefer Death Company to the standard Assault Terminator. So I thought I would throw my two cents in. Things to point out on behalf of both sides:

 

Assault Terminators:

1)Pro - Easier to control with no rage.

2)Con - No FNP

3)Pro - Invulnerable saves

4)Con - Slow moving with no upgrades allowable.

5)Pro - Can reroll failed to wound with lightning claws.

 

Death Company

1)Pro - More upgrades allowed

2)Con - Rage (Must I say anymore there)

3)Pro - FNP

4)Con - No invulnerable

5)Pro - Relentless

6)Con - Higher Price Point with upgrades

 

I can see where the cons can be overcome whether it is Librarians, Sanguinary Priest, or Chaplains. I think the base benefit of both squads you will want to go with Assault Terminators. As a stand a lone squad against for instance Grey Knights with the higher initiative a five man squad of terminators will out live a five man squad of Death Company. You do not need mathhammer to figure this out. Power Weapons do not care about feel no pain, but a storm shield says wait a second. Also if you are so poised on the fact they are slow to get out and onto the table deep. Strike them right in with a locator beacon or just deep strike the land raider in. It is always a shock when you deep strike a land raider right next to your opponents army. Always a good time.

 

So to defend the undefended Assault Terminators I have to go with the Assault Terminators.

[Morollan]

As a stand a lone squad against for instance Grey Knights with the higher initiative a five man squad of terminators will out live a five man squad of Death Company. You do not need mathhammer to figure this out. Power Weapons do not care about feel no pain, but a storm shield says wait a second.

 

The Terminators cost twice as much though so you could either get 10 DC for the same price or 5 and a Chaplain. And that's without any TH/SS guys in the terminator unit. My money's still on the DC in that fight.

[Morticon]

I much prefer the DC.

 

The reason behind this is cause of the transport costs associated with the Terms.

 

I LOVE assault terms, love love love em. Would LOVE to have em in my lists- but at 1750, I cant work them+ transport in what I feel is an adequate list.

 

If I had access to tele-homers and gate of infinity, very likely. But, otherwise...its a 250point raider or a 215 point Raven - both of which take a sizeable chunk.

Also, if i played them, id like at least at least 6. Preferably 8.

 

8 will set me back 345 + 250 (almost 600 points).

 

 

The issue with this is two fold. 600 points makes for a lot of eggs in one basket. This means that if something goes wrong with that key element, you're in for a rough, rough time.

 

The other issue is that you remove a lot of additional threat points from your list to invest in one.

 

300 Points nets me 9 DC in a Rhino with a hammer, a fist and a PW. Thats super killy for anything other than other proper Death Star units.

Then you still have 300 points to invest in other elements, which will dilute target priority and increase the chance of something important getting to the lines.

I can fit in a Baal and a Vindy or 3 attack bikes and a Baal or a full 10man RAS squad and some extras.

 

I think a lot of it depends on points level. Im also used to playing vs loads of lascannons, ordnance and melta. ><;

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah that was the major problem I found with terms as well. You pretty much have to play a perfect game and your army will be very small.

 

G ;)

[Morticon]

You pretty much have to play a perfect game and your army will be very small.

 

Quoted for truth!

[Brother_Byhlli]

I had this question clarified for me today by a voice from on high. The Dice Gods saw our discussion and saw that it was bad and they sought to intervene for us.

 

I played a game in my local store today using models I'd borrowed from the store. I hadn't planned to be playing, but as someone was after a game the staff let me put together a smurf army.

 

About two-thirds of the way through the game the Dice Gods directly intervened in my life.

 

Having taken 11 shots against my two five-man Terminator squads (one Tactical and one Assault), I rolled no less than 6 1s. That's six Terminators failing their armour saves in one shooting phase, to 11 shots.

 

The Dice Gods have made their point. Terminators are awful and I will never touch them again!

[JamesI]

I had this question clarified for me today by a voice from on high. The Dice Gods saw our discussion and saw that it was bad and they sought to intervene for us.

 

I played a game in my local store today using models I'd borrowed from the store. I hadn't planned to be playing, but as someone was after a game the staff let me put together a smurf army.

 

About two-thirds of the way through the game the Dice Gods directly intervened in my life.

 

Having taken 11 shots against my two five-man Terminator squads (one Tactical and one Assault), I rolled no less than 6 1s. That's six Terminators failing their armour saves in one shooting phase, to 11 shots.

 

The Dice Gods have made their point. Terminators are awful and I will never touch them again!

Hard to make a decision off 1 bad game.

 

I once assaulted Death company into a unit of 5 terminators. Got 11 wounds that ignored armor. My opponent made every invul save (and they were 5+ not storm shield terminators). Then his 5 terminators killed my Death company to a man.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Look on the bright side - it won't happen again as long as you play 40k! :)

 

I remember one time I was playing in the final round in a tournament - I was up against a Necron player and the very first turn he fired a squad of his Destroyers at one of my terminator squads. Up popped five 1s for my armor saves. Yeah it sucked as you well know. I still use terminators though and now you can add FNP. It's a great combo.

 

G

[Ranwulf]

I rather use DC because in my opnion what kills other players terminators are numbers.

 

Death Company with reroll GOT those numbers. USually, I get an Dread Librarian with them inside of a Stormraven, it gives them some resilience with Shield.

 

You can find lots of Terminators in other armies.

 

But DC is unique to Blood Angels.

 

Besides, I love Chaplains, specially Lemartes, so yeah, I use them if I can.

 

Don't get me wrong though, my lists usually get both of them.

 

Ran

[BigBaals]

Personally prefer the DC for a lot of the reasons listed earlier. I always add the Chaplain for the re-rolls to hit and wound. This unit inside a fast Rhino (or Raven/LRC) can pull off a multi-assault 9 times out of 10 and absolutely eat my opponents lunch. Sure I'll loose a couple DC per turn to return PW/PF attacks but I win combat every time hands down. No one likes to charge a unit with 3 power weapons and a thunder-hammer either. I can only remember one time when I've lost my DC and that's because my Tau opponent was able to pop the Rhino and rapid-fire plasma the crap out of them. Even then, they took out his Kroot wall and jet-bike-melta-fellows before being completely vaporized. I brought a squad of 9+Chaplain (2 PW & TH) in a LRC to our latest Apoc game and they performed famously. They chewed up 2 giant squads of small bugs, some other tyranid squad that I can't put my finger on, and two big bugs. By the end of the game I still had one DC and the Chaplain. Needless to say they outperformed the rest of my army by far.

 

I've had similar experiences with Terminators that Byhlli had... I roll 1's on my armor saves.

[Malus the Destroyer]

Problem is, other armies may not have Death Company. But what kills Plague Marines, and marines in general, still kills Death Company. I support both units, and use termies and DC. But let's not blow this outta porportion here. They are still marines, they still die to the same things that kill marines. With SHP, we can blanket FNP on all our marines, and enemy players take that into account.

Side note, Gabriel Seth with some bare bones Death Company and a DC dread Blood Talons in a stormraven makes one hell of a fire magnet, and multi facetted unit that threatens......damn near everything in the game. Seth + Stormraven weapon systems handle anti-armor, and the payload with Seth handle most units.

[Xenith]

Death Company, fluffy, dont need the land raider transport, you get Lemartes.

 

Termies in bigger games, for sure, but a 5man DC squad will always have a place.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Just to clarify for those worried individuals who think I'm basing my opinion on that one bad experience of Terminators: calm, brothers, calm! I'm well-versed enough in probability to know that the odds of six Terminators dying to 11 shots is slim and not hugely likely to happen again!

 

I've enjoyed the comments, though. Still heavily-weighted in favour of the Death Company, I see. One of my big reasons, as with many of you, is fluff. Death Company are uniquely Blood Angels. That makes them awesomer, in my opinion!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Very true indeed! They are true Sons of Sanguinius. :)

 

G :D

[Bartali]

Not a fan of either for BA really. Assault Terminators need an expensive transport to keep up. DC have lost their main advantages now that everyone can get FnP/FC from Priest bubbles, and don't have any way of controlling Rage other than sticking them in a Rhino.

 

In my jumper list it's Sanguinary Guard, and in a mech list I'd probably MSU Assault Marines and Honour Guard.

[Morollan]

DC have lost their main advantages now that everyone can get FnP/FC from Priest bubbles

 

Don't forget they also have Ws5 and 2 attacks. Coupled with Furious Charge you're usually rolling 4 attacks per model, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's - both with rerolls. That's not to be sneezed at, especially at only 20 points/model.

[Morticon]

DC have lost their main advantages now that everyone can get FnP/FC from Priest bubbles

 

Don't forget they also have Ws5 and 2 attacks. Coupled with Furious Charge you're usually rolling 4 attacks per model, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's - both with rerolls. That's not to be sneezed at, especially at only 20 points/model.

 

Only with rerolls when you have the chappy -s o need to factor in that cost too.

But, that aside, you're 100% right.

They've lost nothing- if anything, they've gained something.

[Astorath the Grim]

And truthfully rage is not that big of a handicap, there are ways to move around its drawbacks, and I don't mean throwing them in a rhino.

 

I recently played against a tau player that was absolutely terrified of DC (I shoulda played my dc army against him but I was being nice) He spent 3 turns focusing all his firepower on killing them, he managed to kill 3 of them before they smashed into his lines and crushed 3/4 of his army themselves. DC kills nearly everything they run across, and there is psychological warfare going on as well. People know what dc can do and a lot of them fear dc....I can't say I've ever run across someone that fears assault termies.

[Bartali]

And truthfully rage is not that big of a handicap, there are ways to move around its drawbacks, and I don't mean throwing them in a rhino.

 

I think as you play more competitive players, rage will become much more of an issue. Expect to be 'walked' around the board by fast units or directed into assaults that the DC can't win.

 

Don't forget they also have Ws5 and 2 attacks. Coupled with Furious Charge you're usually rolling 4 attacks per model, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's - both with rerolls. That's not to be sneezed at, especially at only 20 points/model.

 

The problem with DC, apart from rage, is that they're mostly anti-infantry and can't deal effectively with Elite/Heavy Infantry, MCs etc. Assault Marines are good too at anti-infantry, and you're probably taking these anyway. There's also the issue of cost - they're not 20pts a model. For example :-

 

10xDC w/ Jump Packs + Chaplain = 450pts, without any upgrades.

 

compared to

 

10xASM w/ Power Fist, Meltagunsx2; Priest w/ Claw = 325pts

[Astorath the Grim]

And truthfully rage is not that big of a handicap, there are ways to move around its drawbacks, and I don't mean throwing them in a rhino.

 

I think as you play more competitive players, rage will become much more of an issue. Expect to be 'walked' around the board by fast units or directed into assaults that the DC can't win.

 

 

And I think as you get to be a more competitive player, you'll find that you can keep yourself from being 'walked' around the board by anything. And I've yet to run across anything that DC can't beat.

 

I run my DC with jump packs, its expensive but well worth it

[AbusePuppy]

DC do fine against heavy infantry- you should be including 1-3 Power Weapons/Fists in the squad, plus the Chappy (or, more commonly, Lemartes). Their real problems are Walkers and MCs, both of which can do quite a bit of damage to them. They are also a LOT weaker when not getting the charge off, meaning you'll usually get one good hammer-swing with them and then have a lot of problems setting them up for the next one.

 

Jump Packs aren't ever worth considering for DC. They're awful and overpriced and they only make it extra-hard to mitigate Rage. Generally you will do so using a transport to block their LOS/movement and then load them into it, setting them up for another charge the following turn. (Stormravens can be ideal here due to their maneuverability and speed, but Land Raiders are nice in that they are big "walls" that can cut LOS. Rhinos don't really work due to not being Assault Vehicles.)

 

DC give you better options against hordes and when multicharging targets; Terminators are better against hard targets and vehicles as well as more survivable against most other hammer units. I tend to run one of each in the 2K version of my Twin Stormraven list and send them against the appropriate target; this also has the advantage of making choices for Elite slots less challenging. My usual setups are something like:

 

8 Death Company (Power Fist, Power Weapon, add Lemartes)

 

and

 

5 Assault Terminators (2 TH/SS)

Sanguinary Priest (naked)

Librarian (Unleash Rage + Sanguine Shield)

 

Both units put out pretty crushing melee power; the DC are expensive, but entirely capable of taking on two or more enemy squads at once. The Terminators are cheaper, but can fall more easily to a few bad armor saves. However, they also will roll over a lot of the enemy's big hitters without batting an eye, whereas the DC can take a lot of casualties.

 

Different roles, different units.

[Morollan]

The problem with DC, apart from rage, is that they're mostly anti-infantry and can't deal effectively with Elite/Heavy Infantry, MCs etc.

 

I disagree. I did a very quick version of the mathhammer in one of my earlier posts in which I said "With 9 DC (ignoring the chaplain/reclusiarch for the moment) that's 36 attacks, of which 32 hit (after rerolls) and 28 wounds (after rerolls). That's 9 dead MEQ right there. It's 5 dead Terminators for that matter. And that's without power weapons and not including the extra attacks from the chaplain/reclusiarch". I also ignored the fact that you could potentially force another 3 or 4 saves by shooting prior to the assault.

 

 

There's also the issue of cost - they're not 20pts a model. For example :-

 

10xDC w/ Jump Packs + Chaplain = 450pts, without any upgrades.

 

compared to

 

10xASM w/ Power Fist, Meltagunsx2; Priest w/ Claw = 325pts

 

Well, I would never give my DC jump packs unless I was in a very high points game. For more normal games they get a transport. And for 10 points less than you are spending on your assault squad I can get 7 DC with a hammer and Chaplain in a Rhino (which is also a help in dealing with any Rage problems that might crop up via blocking LOS etc).