Assault Terminators vs. Death Company

[Soups]

Death Company

 

just a compare and contrast. (DC=10+pfist+lemartes. Termies=4 LC, 2 TH/SS, Spriest, and Librarian(SS))

 

Assuming charge against marines

 

DC

40 attacks

about 24 hits (+about 11 more)=35 hits

23 wounds (+about 8 more)=31 wounds

(and 2 pfist wounds and maybe 4 from lemartes)

10 failed armour saves, +2 fist+4 lemartes

16 wounds ideally

 

Termies

 

16 attacks( 6 TH)

8 + 4 LC (about 4 TH) hits

6+3=9 wounds(about3 from TH) (maybe 2-3 from libby and the priest)

 

14-16 wounds ideally

 

 

So, in conclusion. Rolling 9000 dice is more satisfying that rolling only 20. Advantage death company.

[SamaNagol]

Dont the terminators WAY out cost the DC in that comparison?

[Astorath the Grim]

Death Company

 

just a compare and contrast. (DC=10+pfist+lemartes. Termies=4 LC, 2 TH/SS, Spriest, and Librarian(SS))

 

Assuming charge against marines

 

DC

40 attacks

about 24 hits (+about 11 more)=35 hits

23 wounds (+about 8 more)=31 wounds

(and 2 pfist wounds and maybe 4 from lemartes)

10 failed armour saves, +2 fist+4 lemartes

16 wounds ideally

 

Termies

 

16 attacks( 6 TH)

8 + 4 LC (about 4 TH) hits

6+3=9 wounds(about3 from TH) (maybe 2-3 from libby and the priest)

 

14-16 wounds ideally

 

 

So, in conclusion. Rolling 9000 dice is more satisfying that rolling only 20. Advantage death company.

 

And that is assuming you don't loose a termie or two from yer opponent's assault cause your going last no matter what.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Death Company

 

just a compare and contrast. (DC=10+pfist+lemartes. Termies=4 LC, 2 TH/SS, Spriest, and Librarian(SS))

 

Assuming charge against marines

 

DC

40 attacks

about 24 hits (+about 11 more)=35 hits

23 wounds (+about 8 more)=31 wounds

(and 2 pfist wounds and maybe 4 from lemartes)

10 failed armour saves, +2 fist+4 lemartes

16 wounds ideally

 

Termies

 

16 attacks( 6 TH)

8 + 4 LC (about 4 TH) hits

6+3=9 wounds(about3 from TH) (maybe 2-3 from libby and the priest)

 

14-16 wounds ideally

 

 

So, in conclusion. Rolling 9000 dice is more satisfying that rolling only 20. Advantage death company.

 

The Terminators cost 25 points more than the Death Company in this situation. Thing is, there's no possible way to create a Terminator unit that outkills a same-price Death Company. It's quite simply not possible.

 

Death Company hit more often and wound more often and have more bodies. Simple.

 

You want to outkill your 400-point unit of Terminators? I see your ten Death Company and raise you seven Death Company with power weapons and Lemartes. Assuming a charge against Space Marines, that unit (mathhammer rounding down) does:

 

32 attacks; 28 hits; 24 power weapon wounds.

 

As I say - Death Company hit more often, wound more often and have greater numbers of bodies meaning greater numbers of attacks. They're equally durable against non-power weapon attacks and you'll often find they wipe out squads before they get hit back anyway, meaning you aren't taking so much incoming damage.

 

The only arguments that can be made in favour of Terminators are their invulnerable save and their lack of rage. Fact.

[Morollan]

So, in conclusion. Rolling 9000 dice is more satisfying that rolling only 20. Advantage death company.

 

The rest of your post pales into insignificance when compared to the power of this quote. :D

[JamesI]

The only arguments that can be made in favour of Terminators are their invulnerable save and their lack of rage. Fact.

That's a pretty good argument though.

[Brother_Byhlli]

The only arguments that can be made in favour of Terminators are their invulnerable save and their lack of rage. Fact.

That's a pretty good argument though.

 

Undoubtedly. I'm just trying to stop any more "but omgz Terminators iz da supa-killz!" posts. If we can move on to accepting that Terminators have increased durability against AP1, AP2 (and AP3, to a lesser degree) and power weapons in addition to having control over their movement phase and they have no other benefit over Death Company, then this thread will have achieved something.

 

:)

[JamesI]

The only arguments that can be made in favour of Terminators are their invulnerable save and their lack of rage. Fact.

That's a pretty good argument though.

 

Undoubtedly. I'm just trying to stop any more "but omgz Terminators iz da supa-killz!" posts. If we can move on to accepting that Terminators have increased durability against AP1, AP2 (and AP3, to a lesser degree) and power weapons in addition to having control over their movement phase and they have no other benefit over Death Company, then this thread will have achieved something.

 

:)

Terminators are far better at killing stuff like Dreadnoughts and Monsterous Creatures. DC on the charge against t6 will do ok, but when not on the charge wounding on 6 stinks. Terminators also have the advantage against Ork Nobz due to instant death.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I can't say I've ever run across someone that fears assault termies.

Really? Your local gamers must have big brassy ones then. I mean fearing them less than DC, sure. But Assault Termies are still... Assault Termies. They're still deadly.

[Brother_Byhlli]

The only arguments that can be made in favour of Terminators are their invulnerable save and their lack of rage. Fact.

That's a pretty good argument though.

 

Undoubtedly. I'm just trying to stop any more "but omgz Terminators iz da supa-killz!" posts. If we can move on to accepting that Terminators have increased durability against AP1, AP2 (and AP3, to a lesser degree) and power weapons in addition to having control over their movement phase and they have no other benefit over Death Company, then this thread will have achieved something.

 

:tu:

Terminators are far better at killing stuff like Dreadnoughts and Monsterous Creatures. DC on the charge against t6 will do ok, but when not on the charge wounding on 6 stinks. Terminators also have the advantage against Ork Nobz due to instant death.

 

5 thunder hammer Terminators against Nobz will kill an absolute maximum of 15 on the charge. That's maximum. That's assuming every single attack hits and every single hit wounds and absolutely none of the Nobz (each with a minimum of 3 attacks basic) haven't killed any Terminators. Statistically, however, they'll be doing 6.25 kills - assuming they've all lived through the barrage of attacks they'll take from the Nobz. If one Terminator dies from the 15 basic attacks 5 Nobz have (and statistically 1.25 Terminators will be dead before they get to hit, assuming single close-combat weapons and no upgrades on the Nobz), then you can reduce that figure by 1/5, which gives you exactly 5 dead Nobz.

 

Four Death Company with power weapons and a Chaplain will do 15.8 wounds, which is 7.9 dead Nobz. They also strike first, so they're guaranteed to be hitting at full strength. Advantage Death Company.

 

I agree that Terminators are more durable than Death Company - I've said it all along. So I agree entirely that when they don't charge, more Death Company are likely to die than Terminators. However, assuming the only change is increasing target toughness to T6, my Death Company will still cause 9.9 wounds on the charge where Terminators are causing the same 6.25 wounds (reduced by 1.25 for every Terminator who dies because his initiative is so low). Again, advantage Death Company.

 

Against T7, Death Company are doing 5.4 wounds compared to the Terminators' 5 wounds. Once more, advantage Death Company.

 

Against T8, Death Company are doing the exact same 5.4 wounds where Terminators are dropping further to 3.75. Guess what? Advantage Death Company.

 

I'll accept that Terminators will do harm to walkers, vehicles and suchlike where Death Company simply can't do the damage needed, but then I have other things in my list specifically designed to take out walkers, light transports and tanks - and all of the things in my list which are designed to take out those targets can do it better than Terminators. Advantage Terminators here, but this doesn't detract from the fact that if you compare Death Company against Terminators attacking absolutely anything that the Death Company can actually damage, Death Company will win. There is nothing in our Codex which can out-damage Death Company.

 

Looking now at numbers where the Terminators or Death Company unit is charged, against anything up to T4, the Death Company out-kill the Terminators (5 wounds compared to 4.2) and strike at I4, rather than I1. Against T5 and above, the Terminators make a strong comeback and will out-kill the Death Company.

 

So, the lessons we learn: use your dedicated tank-hunters to hunt tanks and walkers. If you have a good chance of getting the charge, Death Company will annihilate anything they come into contact with better than anything else. But if you're playing against fast-moving monstrous creatures who might be putting charges against you, Terminators will put out the hurt better than other units and survive to come out the other side for a cup of tea.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I can't say I've ever run across someone that fears assault termies.

Really? Your local gamers must have big brassy ones then. I mean fearing them less than DC, sure. But Assault Termies are still... Assault Termies. They're still deadly.

 

I just want to clarify that I agree with this. I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that Death Company are better at killing than Terminators, but I would never say that Terminators won't put a world of hurt onto almost anything they hit.

 

:tu:

[JamesI]

I think Brother_Byhlli has summed this all up pretty well.

 

In my opinion it comes down to 2 things.

 

1) Rage for the DC

 

2) The need for a Land Raider/Storm Raven to transport the Terminators.

 

Which of those is the one you would rather deal with?

[fearlessgod]

Well put JamesI. I play a pure Death Company army, so I deal with rage on a daily basis. For me it all comes down to planning and common sense tactics. Keeping my DC in their transports untill they are needed is one way of dealing with rage. Another is using transports and terrain to block LOS. It has been a learning experience, but I think I have learned more playing my pure DC army than any other army I have ever played.

[AbusePuppy]

Aside from rage, Terminators also have survivability (remember, they can benefit from FNP as well, and should if you're Doing It Right) against most types of attacks. DC are also only particularly impressive when charging- if those Nobz charge you, they do significantly less well, getting five wounds average instead of fifteen. The Terminators also lose performance, but not to such a drastic degree.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Having alot of experience with a Lucifer list I find myself straying towards Terminators in a raider with Corbs. In my particular sort of lists they provide a second armoured core to fall out of the tank or even charge out often enough. When I only have 1 Infantry unit on the board having 4 storm shields and a 2+ FNP wound soaker are really key to having a unit left at the end of the turn. Having said that I also found Death Company worked suitably enough they just didnt fit my preferences.

 

 

ON the other hand. I have run a Assault Marines/Devastator/Dante/Death company list that makes use of a 775 (including Dante & Lemartes) Death Company unit in it at 1500pts (Yeah thats right I just did that.) It worked fairly well for what I was expecting. Definitely not the sort of list I would bring to a tournament (I did bring it and I did well thank you but that was a different matter) But it has its place in my heart.

 

I quite like both units. I've run more tweaked and effective Death Company units in my games but I think they tend to work best in Meched up rhino/razor lists. Which is something to keep in mind. On the other hand Terminators can be super fun and awesome. They can make for a fun foot slogging army (though not quite as awesome as last edition where I ran 2 honourguard, corbs and a bunch of terminators slogging up the board using the priests to flat out ignore 3 wounds :) )

 

 

tl;dr

 

Isnt there room for both???

[Brother_Byhlli]

Isnt there room for both???

 

Often, yes.

 

:)

[Astorath the Grim]

I can't say I've ever run across someone that fears assault termies.

Really? Your local gamers must have big brassy ones then. I mean fearing them less than DC, sure. But Assault Termies are still... Assault Termies. They're still deadly.

 

 

Deadly yes, worthy of fear, not really. They are durable as heck yes, but very slow moving and you'll be able to easily swamp them under with attacks. Both my full units of RAS and 10 man squads of DC have taken out assault termies in one round of combat without the termies getting to strike back...not something I fear at all.

[d503]

I use 5 death company with power weapons and a reclusiarch with an inferno pistol, and put them in a land raider redeemer.

 

It's stupidly expensive, but it's great for pickup games at a games workshop. Wraith lords, trygons, units of 5 TH/SS terminators - even a 20 man guard blob with a commissar - all have died before getting a single hit on such a ridiculous squad.

 

My tactic is to use the empty rhinos that disgorged objective holding tac squads to block fire lanes to the death company and assist in rage control.