Toasterfree Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 libby in a SR with 8 DCA. powers: HH, MoT, Quickening, Shrouding. MPL 3 uhhh, death much or awesomeness? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 First up, you can fit two more models in there- SR can carry 12. Second, DCA wipe the floor with things as it is. 32 power weapon attacks at WS5 S6 (or 40 if you fill the two other slots with more DCA)... versus MEQ you'll inflict almost 20 wounds. Not even a full squad of Hammernators can survive that, by the averages. What I believe to be a better solution (after I was educated by the good fellows here on B&C) is that somewhere between a 2/3 and 1/2 mix between Crusaders and DCA's is the way to go- you stand a better chance of making the assault finish on your opponent's turn and can take any strike backs relatively well. Without toning down the power, the DCA's will just wipe the unit off the board and then get shot to pieces in your opponent's turn, especially when buffed by a Libby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2836772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 What I believe to be a better solution (after I was educated by the good fellows here on B&C) is that somewhere between a 2/3 and 1/2 mix between Crusaders and DCA's is the way to go- you stand a better chance of making the assault finish on your opponent's turn and can take any strike backs relatively well. say what? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2836788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bismarxist Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I think what wycked is getting at is that with only DCAs in the squad you stand a very high chance of completely anhiliating your target on the charge and then getting stuck standing around right in front of the enemy's gun line. so by taking crusaders you a.) decrease your offensive power enough so that you kill them off in there turn and save yourself from getting shot in the face and b.) have a few guys with 3++ save to take any enemy hits that you do take. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2836793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Yep :P They can't get shot at while still locked in assault; if they finish off the enemy unit during your opponent's assault phase, you get a turn to move and even assault with them again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 If you plan to put DCA on a stormraven you must consider it does not have the frag assault lunchers, so if you have to make a difficult terrain test your DCA will strike at I1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 If you plan to put DCA on a stormraven you must consider it does not have the frag assault lunchers, so if you have to make a difficult terrain test your DCA will strike at I1. The Librarian has genardes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 If you plan to put DCA on a stormraven you must consider it does not have the frag assault lunchers, so if you have to make a difficult terrain test your DCA will strike at I1. The Librarian has genardes. Indeed but if I remember the rulebook correctly IC does not grant assault grenades' effect to the unit they join because they act on single model basis. In that case Librarian will ignore the penality but DCA won't. If you read differently in some FAQ, let me know. Grenades that have effect on the enemy can be used by a single model in order to produce their effects but the ones that grant benefits to single models work only for the model who cary them. In fact when assault grenades are an upgrade you must buy them for every single model (they cost X pts for each model and you must buy for the entire unit) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raus Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Shepard is correct, only the Librarian will strike at his own initiative. Everyone else in a hencheman unit at I1 after assaulting throught terrain. Take a crusader instead =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Yep. :devil: In addition, the Librarian is in Terminator armor...so his being attached to the DCAs means that they cannot perform a Sweeping Advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Yep. ^_^ In addition, the Librarian is in Terminator armor...so his being attached to the DCAs means that they cannot perform a Sweeping Advance. Change the Librarian to a Brotherhood Champion. So they reroll to hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I think we've highlighted the strengths and weaknesses of your original unit layout. They'd be an amazing counter-charge with anything that closed with your gun-line; not much of a "vanguard" in so far as being the ones to run in first, especially if the target is in cover. The Brotherhood Champ does add re-rolls and is cheaper, I think, than the Librarian...but insofar as the unit (and neighboring units) far less versatility. Not sure it's worth the trade off to regain Sweep. EDIT: an egregious typo. Seriously. "afford" is not the same as "insofar as" ... it's been a long day at work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 The problem with the unit, is that, it is over kill. It will arrive, kill 1 thing very efficiently, and then be sat in the middle of your opponents army with a very large shoot me sign on it. Heck if your opponent has first turn, then that storm raven has a massive shoot me sign on it. Now dont get me wrong, being frugal with when and where you assault will help, making sure that the enemy cant mass fire power on you etc, but without major support, once the first target is dead (very dead), then the unit (and super important librarian) will be very very dead too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I do agree with everyone that you don't want to wipe the charged target off the face of the board the first turn of the assault it will end badly for the unit. Just change 3 of the DCA to Crusaders and you squad is more surivable and doesn't kill as fast but do remember that Crusaders do have power weapons so they are not a push over in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I would say 3 Crusaders is bare minimum; 50% of the unit as Crusaders is still plenty good. An unbuffed DCA/Crusader squad, 5 of each (to fit a Libby in the SR) will still inflict on average 8.5 wounds on MEQ on the charge. A full squad of 12, 6 and 6, will on average inflict 10 wounds on MEQ on the charge. And then still have as many ablative 3++ wounds as there are DCA's in the unit. Not taking into account the Librarian's attacks or the buffs he can give the unit (like making the Crusaders strike at I10, meaning they'll go before everyone too.) Scary, eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 The problem with the unit, is that, it is over kill.It will arrive, kill 1 thing very efficiently, and then be sat in the middle of your opponents army with a very large shoot me sign on it. This line of thinking is an important one, but it is also misleading; it's based on the same underlying (and hidden) assumption that drives people to hate Vanguard Vets in their marine codecies. Do NOT put them in a situation where they will charge, wipe a unit, then stand there for your opponent's shooting phase if you can help it. How can you help it? Move other units such that they screen charges (or even follow-up shooting) at that unit...at least a cover save, best case you present a problem to those other units that they have to solve before they can help whatever your DCA are mulching. "Vanguard" is a misnomer because they should never be the guys way up in front by themselves, crashing alone into enemy lines. They should stay back and counter charge, and in many cases something else should charge in with them. Swapping out DCA for Crusaders will help you get the DCA to a place where they kill a unit in two assault phases instead of one, which can be very helpful. Not to mention the Librarian with a Warding Stave could just about charge a unit all by himself and pin it down, while still putting Quickening on the DCA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235561-is-this-overkill/#findComment-2837640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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