who started this mess?

[atin]

Erebus was just the first Chaplain. He took his cues from Lorgar and Kor Phaeron.

 

Erebus held the prestigious position of First Chaplain of the Word Bearers Space Marine Legion during the rise of Horus to the rank of Warmaster and the end of the Great Crusade. He was a fearsome and intimidating Astartes warrior, and wore tattoos depicting sections of the Book of Lorgar across his shaven scalp, to terrify his enemies. Erebus was the first of the Space Marines to knowingly turn to Chaos and he was personally responsible for corrupting his own Legion's Primarch Lorgar, Horus and the Death Guard First Captain Calas Typhon to the worship and service of Chaos. He is presently one of the ruling Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers Traitor Legion.

 

From reading 'First Heretic' it seems certain that....

 

1) Lorgar was manipulated by Phaeron and Erebus...... in many ways he was but a pawn.

 

2) Although Phareon always kept a belief in the worship of 'Old Gods', it was Erebus who understood exactly what it was that these 'Old Gods' were. It was Erebus who first pledged his loyalty specifically to chaos...... Phaeron initially was just interested in the worship of devinity.

 

And finally.....

 

In Greek mythology, Erebus (play /ˈɛrəbəs/), also Erebos (Ancient Greek: Ἔρεβος, "deep darkness, shadow"), was the son of a primordial god, Chaos, and represented the personification of darkness.

 

Erebus WAS the first born of the ruinous powers....

 

I'm going with this. :eek

 

can someone ask ADB? he is the wordbearer specialist.. or read first heretic again..

because there are two factions now: 1 its Phaeron

2 its erebus and Phaeron ( I say it is this one.)

[Artein]

In TFH it is also said that there were Word Bearers Chaplains in other Legions. Word Bearers corrupted other Legions, or maybe pushed them a bit towards Chaos.

[IronKobra]

I think the Word Bearer chaplains placed in the other legions were there it institutionalise the warrior lodges which was the beginnings of the cult to choas worship. The whole passing of coins and conduct kept under secrecy.

 

I only recently finished the TFH (just a week ago) and Lorgar was definately manipulated by Erebus and Kor. Which of these 2 held the higher power it's not very clearly defined, but Lorgar was definately pushed by one or both them into Chaos.

[Brother Contemptus]

the Heresy was started not by Kor Phareon or Erebus, but by the Old Ones themselves, perhaps with a little help from their friends at the "Cabal". The Cabal already thought to KNOW how the heresy would turn out IN ADVANCE.

 

Kor Phaeron and Erebus had created a religios belief that centered around the Emperor, and only started worshipping Chaos, becaus Empy burnt their homeworld down when he heard of their cult. So not Kor Phaeron had corrupted Rebus, who corrupted Lorgar, who did it to Horus BUT THE EMPY HIMSELF corrupted Kor Phareon by exacting such a draconic and inhuman example against the population of Colchis!

 

Who would NOT be enraged if he/she found his homeworld burnt to cinders and it's populace expelled into the wilderness, reducing their lives to a battle for survival?

 

Does anybody think that Empy would NOT have gone mad had anybody done the like to earth and its inhabitants?

 

 

if i'm not mistaken Humankind, Orks and the Eldar were created by the Old Ones as a means to battle the C'tan and their Necron vassals by using the psychic potentials of these races, in fact orks, eldar and humans CREATED the Warp and the Chaos-Gods within it as a resonance of their feelings and emotions

 

had the Old Ones not created the younger sentient races to fight the C'tan there would have been no Warp, no humans no Chaos Gods

 

 

another point would be that young Magnus already was cyclopean when he arrived on Prospero. This means that he had already struck his deal with Tzeentch (bargaining his 2nd eye for the fate of his "sons") while under way in his incubation capsule, so the corruption started even BEFORE the crusade

 

since Tzeentch is the changer of ways, lord of fate, etc... i think it possible that the first seeds of corruption had already been sown by then

 

Horus' unending ambition was already part of his personality when Empy departed from his sons after Ullanor

Magnus was already careless and presumptuos when eh crashed on Prospero

Angron was already a bloodthirsty madman when Empy found and kidnapped him

and so on

 

Erebus just ignited the fuse, the stage had already been set earlier... so is it legitimate to say that Erebus or Lorgar actually "started" that cataclsym?

 

I blame the Old Ones and the Cabal...

[Billuriye]

Kor was already a devout follower of Chaos gods before Emperor's arrival and never relinquished his beliefs. He hid his true motives for a while. As for Erebus, he is a power hungry warlock so he was already corrupt to begin with. He just figured out Chaos Gods are more generous with their gifts.

[NecronGovernour]

Or Alpharius's secret plans.

Well, AFAIK, technically nobody really KNOWS what the Alpha Legion's about. Did they engineer the hole Heresy? Or did they make it all appear like they'd turned from the Imperium as part of a huge Batman gambit in order to save it?

Apart from that, what everyone else said ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Mat Ward is Kor Pheron. The Heresy was actually his grand scheme to raise the Ultramarines to such prominence by turning Horus and the other Traitor Primarchs who were too independent to accept the Codex.

[Clewz]

Who would NOT be enraged if he/she found his homeworld burnt to cinders and it's populace expelled into the wilderness, reducing their lives to a battle for survival?

 

Colchis hadn't been destroyed by then. You're referring to Khur and it was only the city Monarchia that was raised to the ground

[The Emperor's Champion]

the Heresy was started not by Kor Phareon or Erebus, but by the Old Ones themselves, perhaps with a little help from their friends at the "Cabal". The Cabal already thought to KNOW how the heresy would turn out IN ADVANCE.

 

Kor Phaeron and Erebus had created a religios belief that centered around the Emperor, and only started worshipping Chaos, becaus Empy burnt their homeworld down when he heard of their cult. So not Kor Phaeron had corrupted Rebus, who corrupted Lorgar, who did it to Horus BUT THE EMPY HIMSELF corrupted Kor Phareon by exacting such a draconic and inhuman example against the population of Colchis!

 

Who would NOT be enraged if he/she found his homeworld burnt to cinders and it's populace expelled into the wilderness, reducing their lives to a battle for survival?

 

Does anybody think that Empy would NOT have gone mad had anybody done the like to earth and its inhabitants?

 

 

if i'm not mistaken Humankind, Orks and the Eldar were created by the Old Ones as a means to battle the C'tan and their Necron vassals by using the psychic potentials of these races, in fact orks, eldar and humans CREATED the Warp and the Chaos-Gods within it as a resonance of their feelings and emotions

 

had the Old Ones not created the younger sentient races to fight the C'tan there would have been no Warp, no humans no Chaos Gods

 

 

another point would be that young Magnus already was cyclopean when he arrived on Prospero. This means that he had already struck his deal with Tzeentch (bargaining his 2nd eye for the fate of his "sons") while under way in his incubation capsule, so the corruption started even BEFORE the crusade

 

since Tzeentch is the changer of ways, lord of fate, etc... i think it possible that the first seeds of corruption had already been sown by then

 

Horus' unending ambition was already part of his personality when Empy departed from his sons after Ullanor

Magnus was already careless and presumptuos when eh crashed on Prospero

Angron was already a bloodthirsty madman when Empy found and kidnapped him

and so on

 

Erebus just ignited the fuse, the stage had already been set earlier... so is it legitimate to say that Erebus or Lorgar actually "started" that cataclsym?

 

I blame the Old Ones and the Cabal...

There is just soooo much wrong with this whole post....

The Old Ones didn't create the Warp...

[Billuriye]

Old Ones' creations twisted Immaterium into Warp. He's right in this one. Though some people consider Warp = Immaterium.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Though some people consider Warp = Immaterium.

Including GW.

Stirring a pot of soup is not the same thing as making the soup.

The Old Ones just stirred up the Warp.

[skawolf]

 

As to who is most at fault for kicking everything off? I'm still putting in my vote for the Emperor. If he hadn't played his cards early and tipped off the chaos gods he was gunna double cross them, they wouldn't have stolen and scattered the infant Primarchs, leaving them to actually mature under the Emperors guidance. Well thats IMHO, at least,

 

Cheers,

Jono

 

Was horus not, basically, brought up by the emperor?

[Billuriye]

The Old Ones just stirred up the Warp.

 

Well semantics aside that was his point. Though stirring the Warp is not quite the same thing as stirring the soup. One gives you Enslavers and Chaos nasties.

[ninja6fett]

Well I would say Erebus would be the first Space Marine to turn considering Kor Phaeron =/= a Space Marine.

 

As far as whose fault I would go with Kor + Erebus. Personally I would think both of them arrived at the same point through different paths, neither one causing the fall of the other.

[Grotsmasha]

While Horus was the first Primarch to be recovered, he was still scattered with the others, and grew to maturity under anothers guidance.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[csblackhawk]

The Emperor, for making a pact with the gods to create the primarchs

[Grimdarkness]

The emperor did then if he had not spanked lorgar the hearsay would never have happened.

 

Of topic when and why did typhus get retconed he was always writting as being something a little more or less then base line human.

[Billuriye]

The Emperor, for making a pact with the gods to create the primarchs

 

That is not confirmed though. Only Erebus and Ingethel say that and they are not very reliable.

[tiberium40k]

The emperor did then if he had not spanked lorgar the hearsay would never have happened.

 

The Emperor can be blamed for not listening to his better judgement and purging Lorgar rather then giving him a second chance, not for starting the thing.

 

As to who started the "mess", the (blatantly) obvious answer would be the Chaos Gods...