Captain Semper Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 In all the Codices throughout the several incarnations and editions the leader of the Deathwing (and the Ravenwing at that) is a "Master". Even in Belial's entry in the army list or in the descriptions segment is: "Master Belial of the Deathwing" or "Belial Master of the Deathwing". However, in the description of the man in p.42 in the first paragraph is says "Grand Master of the Deathwing" and mentions he attends rituals in the inner Circle. It says that the "current Grand Master of the Deathwing is the stoic Master Belial". So what is it? I'd like to think that the Inner Circle is so narrow that even the Master of the Deathwing does not qualify. He is just a Master (as was the case with the previous editions). But this first paragraph on p.42 says that a position called "Grand Master of the Deathwing" exists and among other duties is also responsible to be the Master (as in Captain) of the Deathwing. Ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 He is the company's 'Master' in pure rank terms. But has the ceremonial title 'GM of the DW' to reflect the status of the position as head of DW. My theory anyway :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2838313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I would agree with Isiah's statement. Belial actually has both titles but the Grand Master of the Deathwing is an internal title like Keeper of the Keys, etc... Ezekiel is the Grand Master of Librarians and yet Grand Master is the term for Chapter Masters of Successors of which Ezekiel is not. So the Grand Master has an internal meaning to the chapter where Master would have an outer meaning and would be addressed as Master by those outside the Dark Angels. If I were to guess, the Grand Master of the Deathwing has duties that stretch beyond the confines of the first company and would interact with members of the Inner Circle that would technically be outside his chain of command but the mysteries of the Inner Circle would actually link him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2838366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 He may as being Grand Master of the Deathwing means he has some control over the Deathwings of the successors too. Like how Supreme Grand Master is the Grand Master of the Dark Angels and of the successors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2838405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 They do the same thing with the Ravening. At times its head is referee to as a master, at other times the head of the deathwing is referee to as a grand master. Knowing GW's lllooonnnggg history of poor editing and inconsistency, I just chalk it up to the further mysteries of the inner circle. Its so mysterious even its own members are unclear of the hierarchy. Think of the Int Chap and the Apoth in the novel Angels of Darkness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2838638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I've always imagined the Inner Circle sitting at a table, with Azrael speaking to everyone. Once someone tries to speak out of turn, Belial grabs his hammer and pounds it on the table like a gavel, and everyone turns to look at him: "Now that I have your attention, the Supreme Grand Master would like to speak again, no interruptions." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2838650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 yet Grand Master is the term for Chapter Masters of Successors Untrue, both Codex: Angels of Death and the current codex refer to the Successors as having Supreme Grand Masters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2840176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Master is the default rank for the head of any DA (or successor) company. It's the equivalent of Captain in other codexes. Our basic marine HQ is simply "Company Master". As far as I can tell, Grand Master is the rank you get if you'd be promoted, but not transferred to another company or to the head of the chapter. Alternatively, it could be simply because as masters of 1st/2nd companies, they are effectively in control of all the terminators/bikes/speeders, and are therefore Grand Masters. However, nowhere in the current codex (that i could find) is Sammael referred to as a Grand Master, so it's possible that it's simply an internal promotion/recognition. Or the fluff is slightly screwy. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2840226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 yet Grand Master is the term for Chapter Masters of Successors Untrue, both Codex: Angels of Death and the current codex refer to the Successors as having Supreme Grand Masters. Pg 11 and 46 both state there is one Supreme Grand Master and Pg. 46 specifically says, "Azrael sits at the head of the Inner Circle, master even over the Grand Masters of the Dark Angel's Successor Chapters." That is the basis of the above quoted statement. Could it be different somewhere else? Sure. But again, that is where I got the info for my statement above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2840307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 I beleive that although "Master" is a term that could stand for "Captain" in the overt part of the Chapter organization it also means a certain standing within its covert part. If you are a Master then you are a member of the Deathwing. Of course you can be a member of the Deathwing and not have attained the status of a Master (i.e. being a 1st Comp. Terminator or a very special veteran sergeant). Furthermore the Deathwing is the first (outermost) circle within DAs and successors. There are other circles for sure before the Inner Circle. So it is conceivable that you get many shades of Master. Those that are Deathwing level (entry level) or those that have advanced to other circles as they progress towards the Inner Circle. Now all the members of the Inner Circle are Grand Masters but does this work the other way around? I'd assume it does (i.e. all Grand Masters are members of the Inner Circle) but one has to allow for the possiblity that there are Grand Masters that are not Inner Circle members - the fluff is not clear on this, but it does say that not even all members of the Inner Circle are on equal terms. Supreme Grand Master being an Inner-Inner Circle of one for example. So where is Belial in all this? Originally (until the current Codex came out) I assumed that since the (generic) Master of the Deathwing is always refrerred to as "Master" well, he was a Master. And it worked for me well - I saw him as the Chief of Police so to speak. The execution arm of the Chapter but not the decision maker. He will act upon orders of even higher authority. OK so maybe he was a senior Master. More so than say the Master of the 3rd, 4th and so on... but still a Master. Now the Master of the Deathwing is a named Character - not generic anymore. By reading this first paragraph of his description in the Codex I came to the following conclusion: That the Master of the Deathwing is always a Grand Master. This Grand Master has a number of duties (participating in secret rituals an'stuff) but also he has the duty to be "Master" of the Deathwing. Currently this Grand Master is Belial. Which puts him head and shoulders above Sammael and the likes. I just wished he was "just" a Master... However, nowhere in the current codex (that i could find) is Sammael referred to as a Grand Master, so it's possible that it's simply an internal promotion/recognition. Or the fluff is slightly screwy. :rolleyes: Yes, Sammael is not a Grand Master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2841194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 And yet Gideon, the head of the Ravening prior to Samue,l has the title of Grand Master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2841318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 And yet Gideon, the head of the Ravening prior to Samue,l has the title of Grand Master. You do realize that all the confusion about who is or is not a Grand master all boils down to GW's cut and paste errors and editing failures. ;) On another (Darth Vader voice) "more serious note" It is entirely possible that Belial is in charge overall of all the Unforgiven 1st Companies. What with the unique capture the fallen thing going on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2841541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 pueriexdeus: Yes, maybe... but it would be a very good idea to have one of the successors' 1st Captain (Master) to be the overall commander of the 1st Companies. That would underline the "still a legion" theme. On the copy/paste thing, I'm afraid you might be right. It could be a confusing oversight. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2841608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 pueriexdeus: On the copy/paste thing, I'm afraid you might be right. It could be a confusing oversight. :) That has been my thoughts all song. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2841733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yes, maybe... but it would be a very good idea to have one of the successors' 1st Captain (Master) to be the overall commander of the 1st Companies. That would underline the "still a legion" theme. Azrael being *Supreme* Grand Master doesn't somehow accomplish that all on his own??? :) Azrael is enough to underscore this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2842233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yes, maybe... but it would be a very good idea to have one of the successors' 1st Captain (Master) to be the overall commander of the 1st Companies. That would underline the "still a legion" theme. Azrael being *Supreme* Grand Master doesn't somehow accomplish that all on his own??? :) Azrael is enough to underscore this. Well, to some extent yes. Azrael's title and duties certainly suggest a level of co-operation between the Unforgiven. However it is a rather unexplored theme. As it stands now it could be anything from a very "top down" loose kind of co-operation between the various Chapter Masters down to a very tightly knit co-operation on many levels, resembling that of a Legion of old - to the point that appearences are not jeopardised. I kind of prefer the second version. But as it stands know it can not be supported that this is the case. We'll see where GW will go with this in the new Codex (whenever it comes out). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235677-so-belial-master-or-grand-master/#findComment-2842245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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