C:GK Psychic Communion and Turn 5

[DarkGuard]

Hey guys. This question recently came up on Something Wycked's "Zero Day" Grey Knights thread. Here thade was remarking on how the use of two Psychic Communions can allow unprecedented control over Reserves, and that it does. It allows you to delay Reserves on the second turn, making them need a 6 to turn up, or speed them up through needing a 2+. Indeed, it is possible to have Reserves on 2+ all the way through to Turn 5 where they will come on automatically. However, thade also implied that you can still manipulate Reserves at Turn 5 by making them harder to get on, equating "automatically" to be the same as 1+. I, on the other hand, disputed this, as the Reserves page clearly says "automatically" for Turn 5, and not a number. My reasoning is that there is no dice roll, and so Psychic Communion cannot affect it.

 

First off, some key quote from the thread to look at:

 

Standard arrival from Reserves is determined by a d6 roll: On Turn 2, 4+ and you arrive; on Turn 3, 3+ and you arrive; on Turn 4, 2+ and you arrive; you arrive automatically on Turn 5 and beyond (1+, effectively). Here is a simple format I'll use to demonstrate the use of Communion: 4/3/2/IN

 

One application of Psychic Communion allows you to choose one of two Reserve Roll Formats, as it were: either 5/4/3/2 (if you want to try and delay) or for zero-day, 3/2/IN/IN.

 

Two applications of Communion stacked gives you this awesome choice: 6/5/4/3(/2/IN) to delay (for things like a Callidus when you might need to delay her arrival by a great deal) or for zero-day, 2/IN/IN/IN. Yep. With two stacks of Communion, your reserves are in on Turn 2 on a roll of 2+.

 

 

However, I think you might have got the Reserve dice rolls a bit wrong. Psychic Communion allows you to add or minus one from your Reserve rolls. This only affects turns when a number would be rolled, remembering that a 1 always fails. So even with Psychic Communion Turn 4 is a 2+ as a 1 always fails and PC doesn't change it to auto. Again, 2x PCs doesn't make Turn 3 an auto, but rather a 2+, which you get with 1 anyway. So rather 2 PCs just mean you've got 2+ for Reserves until Turn 5, when they are auto. Likewise, if you want to decrease, you can still only do this from Turn 2-4, as Turn 5 is auto, and so you can't increase it or decrease it.

 

 

 

My feeling is that the reason they said "auto-in on turn five" is that by the implicit progression (roll 4, roll 3, roll 2) you'd have to roll a 1...which you can't fail. Nothing says you can't modify this implicit die roll, and that adds a nice degree of control. Granted, the chances of delaying a Reserved unit at Turn 5 even with two stacks of Communion isn't perfect (3+) but it's better than no chance at all.

 

 

Those are, I think, the main point from the thread.

 

Now, unto the Rulebook. First of all, Reserves. Page 94 clearly lays out a table of Reserves, which we all know well. The main thing I want to draw attention towards is that the line for Turn 5+ says "Automatic", which implies you don't roll. My conviction in this is further strengthened by a line in the "Rolling for reserves" section of this rule set: For example, on Turn 1 no reserves arrive, on Turn 2 the player needs a 4+ for a unit to arrive, and so on until Turn 5, when any units left will arrive automatically. To me that suggests you don't roll, which is critical to Psychic Communion's application.

 

So here's the clarification on Psychic Communion, found in C:GK on page 23: If the Psychic test is successful, you can modify any reserve rolls made this phase by +1 or -1 (choose after each dice roll has been made). More than anything, it's the bit in brackets which I feel backs my point up the most. It states you apply the effects of Psychic Communion after rolls for Reserves are made. Therefore, if you arrive automatically you don't need to roll for it, and so no roll is made. As no roll is made Psychic Communion cannot be used as there is no result to modify. Therefore, regardless of your intent and active Psychic Communions, Reserves arriving from Turn 5 onwards will always turn up, the one exception being a Deep Strike mishap that rolls the Delayed! result.

 

Please, discuss :D.

[Leonaides]

I agree with that - PC can modify as many rolls as you want, but T5 reserves dont roll. inventing an 'implicit' roll is not what the rules say.

[SeattleDV8]

I totally agree, it is no different than say a Fearless model taking a Morale test, you pass automatically there is no roll.

[Isiah]

My reasoning is that there is no dice roll, and so Psychic Communion cannot affect it.

 

On the nail :P

[Something Wycked]

So we're all in agreement that turn 5's are automatic with no roll.

 

What about the turns prior to 5? Is a 1 still a failure, even if the +2 to the roll would ordinarily make the roll succeed?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'd say yes, since a roll of one is always a failure according to the Rulebook, and you can't have a 1+ save.

[Jacinda]

I'd say yes, since a roll of one is always a failure according to the Rulebook, and you can't have a 1+ save.

There is a 1+ roll, however. Specifically at BS 6. At that level you re-roll any 1's and hit on a 6. BS 7 hits on a re-roll of 5+; etc.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But that's not a 1+ roll. It's just rerolling the ones.

[greatcrusade08]

I'd say yes, since a roll of one is always a failure according to the Rulebook, and you can't have a 1+ save.

There is a 1+ roll, however. Specifically at BS 6. At that level you re-roll any 1's and hit on a 6. BS 7 hits on a re-roll of 5+; etc.

 

ummm, no BS6 is a 2+ to hit rerolling any misses on a 6+, its not a 1+ to hit, theres no such thing.

[Something Wycked]

What we're looking for here is more along the lines of language in the BRB that states to a greater or lesser degree that a 1 is always a failure regardless of the type of roll, or if that doesn't exist and all we have to go by is the nature of Reserves rolls and how the bonuses interact with them.

 

For example, going by the new BRB FAQ that different uses of the same psychic power stack tells us that this really is a +/-2 to the roll, and the face of the die is ignored in favor of the modified total.

 

In the absence of a BRB statement to the contrary (eg, all game rolls succeed or fail on a 1 or 6 regardless of modifiers) then the reserves chart we can use with two applications of PsyCom is (2/Auto/Auto/Auto) or (6/5/4/Auto), or any mix between the two.

[Valerian]

I'd say yes, since a roll of one is always a failure according to the Rulebook.

 

Haven't unboxed my BRB from the recent move yet, but does the BRB state that a roll of a 1 is always a failure? I don't think that it does. Maybe for something specific, like Shooting, or making a Save, but not for every roll across the board. What happens when you make an Initiative check, for example? A roll of a 1 is very much a successful roll. So, in the Reserves section do the rules explicitly state that a roll of a 1 is always a failure? If so, then there you have it, but if not then I don't think we can assume it just because it is for other attempted actions.

 

 

Valerian

[thade]

My reasoning is that there is no dice roll, and so Psychic Communion cannot affect it.

 

On the nail ^_^

Yea, I saw the rule when I finally got to the club tonight; no way around it. Reserves are in on five unless they mishap...in which case, they're in on six. :D No rolls beyond Turn 4.

 

Cut and dry...with the book in my hands. :lol:

 

As for 1s always failing, that's a To Hit/To Wound thing.

[DarkGuard]

As for 1s always failing, that's a To Hit/To Wound thing.

 

Completely right. I was also under the delusion of an ultimate natural 1s always fail, but that's only for rolling to hit and wound with shooting or combat attacks. There is no box with this rule in, but rather the Shooting and Assault sections reference it in relation to rolling to hit and wound, and I imagine the armour saves will also reference it, don't have my rulebook with me to check though. Therefore, with two PCs you get Turn 2 as a 2+, with Turn 3 onwards as auto as long as you can get them both off, quite handy IMO.

[dswanick]

For completeness : Auto-success and auto-failure can happen in Characteristic tests also (but reversed - 6 fails, while 1 succeeds). But I know of no rule that makes a game-wide standard that a 1 is an auto-failure.

[Brother Valerius]

As for 1s always failing, that's a To Hit/To Wound thing.

 

Completely right. I was also under the delusion of an ultimate natural 1s always fail, but that's only for rolling to hit and wound with shooting or combat attacks. There is no box with this rule in, but rather the Shooting and Assault sections reference it in relation to rolling to hit and wound, and I imagine the armour saves will also reference it, don't have my rulebook with me to check though. Therefore, with two PCs you get Turn 2 as a 2+, with Turn 3 onwards as auto as long as you can get them both off, quite handy IMO.

 

Even if it was specified that 1 is always a failure for reserve rolls, you could use PC in the way you are suggesting. The power modifies the roll, and not the target to hit, which is an important technical distinction. In effect, it means that even your rolls of 1 are not a roll of 1 (unless you allow them to be), and so would not invoke the auto-fail rule (if it existed).