A Thousand Sons Reread

[Grimtooth]

I noticed something tonight while rereading A Thousand Sons.

 

At the point that Magnus is revealing to his captains everything about to happen as the Wolves are attacking, he specifically tells them,

 

"Leman Russ and his Wolves, together with elements of the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood."

 

He then goes on to detail why they cannot fight back. Of course we have the captains, led by Ahriman decide to fight back.

 

Now up until this point, a blood fued with the Wolves would not justify an invasion of Prospero. However, the captains of the Thousand Sons are specifically told by Magnus that the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood are also part of the Wolves attacking force. I have always believed that the inclusion of both of these elements were a sign of the Emperor's approval/participation of the sanction which brings me to this point,

 

The captains of the Thousand Sons knowingly chose fight back despite the presence of these representatives of the Emperor. If the invading force had just been the Wolves, maybe you could justify respondong as they did but even Ahriman acknowledges that Russ would not act without orders. I have seen several posts pointing at Magnus as the sole source of the Thousand Sons downfall, yet the captains of the Thousand Sons not only defied their Primarch's wishes to not fight back but also knowingly raised arms against a force that clearly was supported by elements representative of the Emperor.

 

Frankly it pulls some of the responsibility of complete damnation from Magnus' shoulders and heaps much more on the shoulders of the captains then I originally thought.

[MaveriK]

a tragic story indeed for everyone involved including the wolves. Arhriman and those who fought with him were only defending their home. I guess its true when they say, that there will come a time in a soldiers life when your given a choice to either follow orders, or follow your heart (moral code).

[Captain Idaho]

Well the Captains are just as guilty of sorcery as Magnus, disobeying the Emperor's decree knowing and willingly. In fact, they never even seem to even doubt their actions. They also disobey Magnus' orders, echoing Magnus in that they think they know better than their Primarch just as he thought he knew better than the Emperor.

 

We can't fault the Thousand Sons too much for fighting for their home though. The Space Wolves weren't there to negoiate or accept surrender. Russ's mission was to destroy the Thousand Sons and bring their Primarch back to the Emperor in chains. If magnus resisted, he would die. It's natural to fight for your home and people, as well as survival.

 

But like I said before in other threads; the Thousand Sons were corrupted from the moment Magnus sold their servitude to a Chaos God. No matter their intentions, they needed to be destroyed.

 

Magnus should never of had a Legion of warriors with his Geneseed.

[Grimtooth]

The sorcery aside, although the Emepror's decree dictated the response, the willingness to raise arms against the Emperor is what crosses the line.

 

As I said, if the Wolves had shown up alone, the Thousand Sons could just cry,

 

"Big bad wolves have gone rabid! Fight!"

 

However there are representatives of the Emperor himself that they decide at that moment to raise arms against. At that point it transcends whatever blood fued the Thousand Sons might have had with the Wolves and elevates it to declaring war against the Emperor.

[Torvak Kyre]

Well the Captains are just as guilty of sorcery as Magnus, disobeying the Emperor's decree knowing and willingly. In fact, they never even seem to even doubt their actions. They also disobey Magnus' orders, echoing Magnus in that they think they know better than their Primarch just as he thought he knew better than the Emperor.

 

We can't fault the Thousand Sons too much for fighting for their home though. The Space Wolves weren't there to negoiate or accept surrender. Russ's mission was to destroy the Thousand Sons and bring their Primarch back to the Emperor in chains. If magnus resisted, he would die. It's natural to fight for your home and people, as well as survival.

 

But like I said before in other threads; the Thousand Sons were corrupted from the moment Magnus sold their servitude to a Chaos God. No matter their intentions, they needed to be destroyed.

 

Magnus should never of had a Legion of warriors with his Geneseed.

 

 

In Prospero Burns when the Space Wolf ships are in orbit over Prospero, Leman Russ asks Magnus to surrender his troops so the Space Wolves could bring them back to Terra. The only reason they attacked them was because the Thousand Sons refused to surrender.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh really? I never read Prospero Burns, as I read Thousand Sons and couldn't bare reading the same story from the perspective of a faction I wasn't very interestioned in.

 

So the offer of surrender was there, Magnus took it and his Captains refused? Then they deserved to die even more, case closed!

[Marmande]

What? The entire point of Russ speaking to Kasper prior to the invasion was to try and contact Magnus, only for us to find out it's actually some daemon instead. In any case, there's no way you can blame the Thousand Sons for defending their homeworld, elements of the Custodes and Sisters or otherwise.

[Simo429]

Magnus had already made deals with the warp and that is a step that I can't remember anyone coming back from best intentions or not.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The only reason that Magnus used socersy after the Emperor banned it was to tell him of the Betrayal of Horus. The Emperor getting pissed at him for using it even when it was used to warn him of a really big diaster it alot on the Emperor's shoulders too. Its one thing if he used it during a battle but its another to use it to warn your father. That is what pushed him to Chaos when the father he loved so much to risk being punished to warn him says he is a no better then a rogue psyker.

[Marshal Rohr]

Magnus also forced a permanent portal from which Daemons could spill directly into the realverse without instability. He really, really messed up.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I agree, and he and his Legion continued to use their powers after Nikae even before the SW invaded. Let's not forget Magnus' little dream invasion as well, eh?

 

Magnus is responsible for not only ruining the Emperor's plans for humanity, but condeming him to forever fight to hold Terra together from a Warp-Real space over load. Likely Magnus had set the potential for a second Eye of Terror to come into existance.

 

As for the Emperor's intention towards Magnus? Certainly he would have put the Thousand Sons to death if they complied with the demand for surrender. Magnus though, would have ended up on the Throne whilst The Emperor fixed his mess. Magnus made a mistake because he thought he knew better than everyone and then goes on to make another mistake that could have fixed everything if he had gone through with his surrender.

 

So my sympathy is extremely limited.

[Simo429]

The only reason that Magnus used socersy after the Emperor banned it was to tell him of the Betrayal of Horus. The Emperor getting pissed at him for using it even when it was used to warn him of a really big diaster it alot on the Emperor's shoulders too. Its one thing if he used it during a battle but its another to use it to warn your father. That is what pushed him to Chaos when the father he loved so much to risk being punished to warn him says he is a no better then a rogue psyker.

That use of sorcery destabilised the webway portal in the imperial palace and allowed daemons a direct access into the throne room.

 

And also he had already made a deal with the chaos gods at that point in order to stabilise the gene seed of his legion. Him joining chaos was all part of the liar gods grand plan.

[Grimtooth]

Sorcery aside as I said. We all know that Magnus pretty much doomed his Legion when he brokered his deal with Chaos. In the end he could have just as easily claimed ignorance as a defense as he didn't know what he was getting into and he thought he was more powerful.

 

Addressing the very act of raising arms against the Emperor is the point I was trying to make. That act really is symbolic of the beginning of a galactic civil war between the Emperor and the traitorous Legions. The proverbial, "shot heard round the galaxy".

[SeanyPrawny]

The way A Thousand Sons read to me was that;

 

a. Magnus was shown a shortcut to the powers of the warp by Tzeentch in the falling statue... of Tzeentch (maybe that's just how I thought of it...)

b. Magnus brokered a deal with an entity in the warp (Tzeentch) to save his legion from becoming effectively chaos spawns.

c. Magnus works against the Emperors wishes of the great crusade by spending the majority of his time looking for ways to make him and his sons more powerful

d. The only significant thing he found that could help humanity (the webway system) the emperor had already thought of and was working on.

e. After Nikea Magnus again went against the Emperors wishes by allowing his sons to carry on using their powers on Prospero as he himself did.

f. He used his powers to find out about Horus and then used them again massively to warn the Emperor, once again taking the help of a warp (the same?) entity to break through the Emperors wards and unleash demons upon Terra itself.

g. After finally realising what was happening he allowed his Sons to ignore his wishes not to fight back and then himself fought back as you say against the Emperor's own custodes and silent sisters.

h. Finally Magnus fully gives himself over to Tzeentch and escapes his punishment.

 

Thats what I took from the book when I read it. I was thinking how it wasn't really his fault when I started but after I finished it had no sympathy for what he had done. He always had a choice and always chose the wrong one. His captains didn't help but they only had Magnus' example to follow so were doomed by his flaws.

[Grimtooth]

The way A Thousand Sons read to me was that;

 

a. Magnus was shown a shortcut to the powers of the warp by Tzeentch in the falling statue... of Tzeentch (maybe that's just how I thought of it...)

b. Magnus brokered a deal with an entity in the warp (Tzeentch) to save his legion from becoming effectively chaos spawns.

c. Magnus works against the Emperors wishes of the great crusade by spending the majority of his time looking for ways to make him and his sons more powerful

d. The only significant thing he found that could help humanity (the webway system) the emperor had already thought of and was working on.

e. After Nikea Magnus again went against the Emperors wishes by allowing his sons to carry on using their powers on Prospero as he himself did.

f. He used his powers to find out about Horus and then used them again massively to warn the Emperor, once again taking the help of a warp (the same?) entity to break through the Emperors wards and unleash demons upon Terra itself.

g. After finally realising what was happening he allowed his Sons to ignore his wishes not to fight back and then himself fought back as you say against the Emperor's own custodes and silent sisters.

h. Finally Magnus fully gives himself over to Tzeentch and escapes his punishment.

 

Thats what I took from the book when I read it. I was thinking how it wasn't really his fault when I started but after I finished it had no sympathy for what he had done. He always had a choice and always chose the wrong one. His captains didn't help but they only had Magnus' example to follow so were doomed by his flaws.

 

Well there was one point when Magnus did explain to them why they must be punished and they chose to fight back.

[SeanyPrawny]

Was hardly out of his power to stop them though and i don't just mean with psychic powers either.

[hendrik]

Was hardly out of his power to stop them though and i don't just mean with psychic powers either.

but then again what loving father could see the wolves unleashed upon his sons and not fight back? frankly i think it's only natural for the 1000th sons and magnus to fight back, especially after refusing to surrender. and yet magnus tried to hinder the emperors wrath as little as possible, even sending away his fleet and keeping his sons unaware of the sixth their pressence.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Thank you hendrik. You speak the truth, or at least our version of it.

[hendrik]

the more i think and read about it the downfall of the 1000 sons actually boils down to a single thing; why didn't the allfather help magnus to overcome the fleshchange? just think of what would have been had magnus not made the pact with tzeentch? what could have happened if instead of leaving magnus on his own to discover the ways of the warp he would have tudored him, maybe even had him help during the construction of the golden throne?

had the 1000th sons not fallen horus turning to chaos might not even have been that succesfull, after all by now it's clearly established both the wolves and the sons were horus his largest fear

 

Magnus, curse his name, was an arogant fool, a disobediant son and a warlock and yet i'm inclined to believe every primarch would have fallen under the same circumstances since all the choices he made, he made out of a love for his sons, his legion and the allfather, and on every occasion unaware that he was beig tricked by the changer of ways. and that's the true tragedy of the sacking of prospero... that downfall could have happened to any primarch, maybe even the mighty russ himself

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, so Magnus completing rituals that require human sacrifice didnt seem like it was skirting the line of not-good to him? He had a choice to make, and he chose wrongly. He is the prime example of all Imperial Forces who make use of the unclean. It gives the cancer of the warp a foothold into any loyalist chapter.

[Grimtooth]

the more i think and read about it the downfall of the 1000 sons actually boils down to a single thing; why didn't the allfather help magnus to overcome the fleshchange? just think of what would have been had magnus not made the pact with tzeentch? what could have happened if instead of leaving magnus on his own to discover the ways of the warp he would have tudored him, maybe even had him help during the construction of the golden throne?

had the 1000th sons not fallen horus turning to chaos might not even have been that succesfull, after all by now it's clearly established both the wolves and the sons were horus his largest fear

 

Magnus, curse his name, was an arogant fool, a disobediant son and a warlock and yet i'm inclined to believe every primarch would have fallen under the same circumstances since all the choices he made, he made out of a love for his sons, his legion and the allfather, and on every occasion unaware that he was beig tricked by the changer of ways. and that's the true tragedy of the sacking of prospero... that downfall could have happened to any primarch, maybe even the mighty russ himself

 

There is a part of A Thousand Sons, I think at Nikea, where Ahriman questions Magnus and it is revealed that the Emperor had indeed already told Magnus not to delve into the warp and Magnus did not listen. It was something about Ahriman making a point that when the Emperor told Magnus about the warp, Magnus already knew about it. He then shouts at Ahriman and can tell that Magnus was lying or something.

 

Look Hendrik, you have a Thousand Sons fanboi looking at you with stars in his eyes.

[hendrik]

Ok, so Magnus completing rituals that require human sacrifice didnt seem like it was skirting the line of not-good to him? He had a choice to make, and he chose wrongly. He is the prime example of all Imperial Forces who make use of the unclean. It gives the cancer of the warp a foothold into any loyalist chapter.

didn't the grey knight do a similar thing sacrificing sisters of battle or the likes?

at the time they were facing a (deliberatly as chosen by the emperor) unknown foe and wasn't it the local that killed himself and not magnus?

the point about most of the traitor primarchs is they picked the easiest way when they needed to decide, and in most occasions did so out of a love for their sons. magnus did it, mortarion did it. maybe even some others aswell

 

imagine what would have happened if dorn and his fleet would have been trapped in the warp and the plague visited them. are you absolutly sure that in his most desperate hour in an attempt to save his sons dorn would have made a pact with nurgle? or what if upon founding the imperial fists most of them turned into spawns of chaos instead of marines. could dorn not too have made the same mistakes out of a love for his sons?

 

don't get me wrong, they definetly made the wrong choice, all of them did. but most of them made those mistakes for reasons i can absolutly understand. afterall they made almost most of their choices out of a love for their sons

[hendrik]

There is a part of A Thousand Sons, I think at Nikea, where Ahriman questions Magnus and it is revealed that the Emperor had indeed already told Magnus not to delve into the warp and Magnus did not listen. It was something about Ahriman making a point that when the Emperor told Magnus about the warp, Magnus already knew about it. He then shouts at Ahriman and can tell that Magnus was lying or something.

 

Look Hendrik, you have a Thousand Sons fanboi looking at you with stars in his eyes.

aye, but wasn't this fidling in the warp also a byproduct of the warp "saving" his sons from the flesh change? kind of like a small child that starts to trust someone who helped him, only to later find out the person's a pedophile.

 

besides, now that vile warlock can atleast look into the barrel of my bolter before he meets his creator :)

[SeanyPrawny]

Was hardly out of his power to stop them though and i don't just mean with psychic powers either.

but then again what loving father could see the wolves unleashed upon his sons and not fight back? frankly i think it's only natural for the 1000th sons and magnus to fight back, especially after refusing to surrender. and yet magnus tried to hinder the emperors wrath as little as possible, even sending away his fleet and keeping his sons unaware of the sixth their pressence.

 

I think this is another bad choice. Keeping people in the dark and sending away the fleet was a terrible idea. He should of just owned up to what he did, told his sons he had messed up and accepted what ever was to come. A man would of done that. Granted it would be REALLY hard but he was a primarch and apparently the most learned one at that! Surly if anyone should be able to do it he would. The fleet wouldn't of been destroyed it would of carried on serving the imperium under someone elses command most likely, Magnus could have kept the throne going and his sons could of even helped fuel his power perhaps like the millions of psychers now do with the emperor. If only they had just surrendered.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, so Magnus completing rituals that require human sacrifice didnt seem like it was skirting the line of not-good to him? He had a choice to make, and he chose wrongly. He is the prime example of all Imperial Forces who make use of the unclean. It gives the cancer of the warp a foothold into any loyalist chapter.

didn't the grey knight do a similar thing sacrificing sisters of battle or the likes?

at the time they were facing a (deliberatly as chosen by the emperor) unknown foe and wasn't it the local that killed himself and not magnus?

the point about most of the traitor primarchs is they picked the easiest way when they needed to decide, and in most occasions did so out of a love for their sons. magnus did it, mortarion did it. maybe even some others aswell

 

Well, when you simplify it, their choices seem like the easiest route. The intent was to make their falls have more depth than Horus giving them a good speech and the Emperor having made them mad at some point before.

 

Think about it:

Fulgrim: His quest for perfection leads him unwittingly into possession, because he doesnt comprehend the warp. Downfall: Pride.

Perturabo: His entire life he is always second best and finally Horus shows him the respect he thinks he deserves. Downfall: Pride.

Kurze: Mentally insane and wracked by horrific visions of betrayal. He succumbs to his own paranoia after years of battling it. Downfall: Lack of Trust/Insanity.

Angron: The Emperor forces him to abandon his comrades, something he struggles with for his entire life. He was lobotomized as a child, turning him into a killing machine that can't control himself. He eventually turns to view this as a good thing and becomes convinced of his superiority. Downfall: Pride/Anger.

Mortarion:Hates the Emperor for being stronger than him and having to rescue him from the Warlords of Barabus. Downfall: Anger

Horus:Feels abandon by the Emperor when the monumental task of running the Crusade finally taxes his superhuman being to the breaking point. He is further lied to in a moment of weakness to truly believe the Emperor has abandoned him and seeks godhood at Horus' expense. The scene where Horus is brought to the 41st Millennium and sees the loyalist Primarchs canonized and nothing about him is the most powerful scene in the series so far. Downfall: Lack of Trust-turned Pride.

Magnus:Already commented on him, delved to deeply into dark arts. Downfall: Pride.

Lorgar: Needs a page all his own. Downfall: Blind faith.

Alpharius: Doing bad for the right reasons, he has no downfall.

 

imagine what would have happened if dorn and his fleet would have been trapped in the warp and the plague visited them. are you absolutly sure that in his most desperate hour in an attempt to save his sons dorn would have made a pact with nurgle? or what if upon founding the imperial fists most of them turned into spawns of chaos instead of marines. could dorn not too have made the same mistakes out of a love for his sons?

 

I doubt the most stubborn and loyal (canon) of the primarchs would throw his lot in with chaos. We already know what happens when Dorn has to watch his sons die in massive droves (the Siege, Scouring, and Iron Cage)

 

don't get me wrong, they definetly made the wrong choice, all of them did. but most of them made those mistakes for reasons i can absolutly understand. afterall they made almost most of their choices out of a love for their sons

 

Some were more selfishly minded. Perturabo wasnt the kind to feel empathy or regret, Alpharius made his choice for the good of the galaxy, Angron butchered his own sons, A D-B pointed out that ultimately Night Haunter was self absorbed and obsessed with his visions, and Fulgrim was more cocnerned with his own perfection and his sons were secondary to himself.