Magna Grapple query

[Coopervisor]

This came up in the last game I played and wondered other people would have ruled on it.

 

My dreadnought shot a magna grapple into the side of a rhino which had used smoke launchers. It hits, but then he passes his cover save. Now the magna grapple rules suggest that if it hits, but fails to destroy, then you can attempt to pull it in. However my opponent suggested that if he passed a cover save it meant I had missed the target and therefore couldn't use the rules to attempt to pull him in.

 

In the end we went with being able to as the rules as written say hit, but not destroy. Which is what had happened.

 

How would anybody else have played this?

[Morollan]

I'd agree that the cover save would negate the hit but not sure what the RAW position would be.

[Seahawk]

Your opponent was right:

 

"If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it." "If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made..." (p.62)

 

Cover saves for vehicles throw out the entire hit, so since the magna-grapple never hit you don't get to try and pull it in.

[thade]

Cut and dry, that. We like em easy. <3

[Leonaides]

so, if the magna grapple had failed to glance or penetrate, the rhino would not have been able to try its smoke save, so the magna grapple would have been able to try to drag the tank closer? Answers on a post-card when you get yr head around that little chestnut:-)

[Seahawk]

Correct, Leonaides!

[Jacinda]

so, if the magna grapple had failed to glance or penetrate, the rhino would not have been able to try its smoke save, so the magna grapple would have been able to try to drag the tank closer? Answers on a post-card when you get yr head around that little chestnut:-)

I would have the see the rules on the magna grapple before I could answer that. The OP states "Now the magna grapple rules suggest that if it hits, but fails to destroy, then you can attempt to pull it in. " "Suggest" is a long way from RAW.

[ShinyRhino]

I think the messed up is in the wording of the grapple. It makes an immediate jump from "hit" to "destroy."

There is the shooting roll "to hit," and the resulting Glancing or Penetrating "hit."

 

Two questions arise...

 

1: Which "hit" dies the smoke cause to be discarded? The result of a to-hit roll or the actual damage result? The effect is the same, nothing happens to the vehicle.

 

2: Upon which "hit" does the grapple trigger its effect? The to-hit roll, or the glance/pen hit?

[thade]

The way I've seen this played is: you roll to hit, he rolls his cover save; if he makes his cover save, that's it. If not, you continue. That also makes the most sense to me.

 

Without my codex in hand, I can't drill any deeper into the words, but I admit I'd be surprised if a successful cover save would still allow a grapple and drag.

[Seahawk]

Magna-grapple:

 

"If the Magna-grapple shot hits a vehicle and the target is not destroyed, roll a D6 and add 8 to the score...etc" (C:BA p.60)

 

 

Cover:

 

"If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it." "If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made..." (BRB p.62)

 

1: Which "hit" dies the smoke cause to be discarded?

All of it. When shooting at a vehicle, any successful tests are first defined to as a "Hit." Next, with a further test, they are sub-defined as either a "Glancing Hit" or a "Penetrating Hit." This is the same hit, just with additional nomenclature. The smoke gets rid of the entire hit.

 

Conclusion:

You may only take a cover save if you suffer a Glancing or Penetrating Hit. If you just suffer a Hit (generic) then you don't get to make a save and the special rule can be used to drag the vehicle. Thus, you may only utilize a cover save against a Magna-Grapple if it has become a Glancing or Penetrating Hit. If you successfully pass the cover save, the entire hit is discarded, and it may not use its special rule to drag a vehicle.

[thade]

Interesting. I should start using my magna grapple. :)

[Leonaides]

When shooting at a vehicle, any successful tests are first defined to as a "Hit." Next, with a further test, they are sub-defined as either a "Glancing Hit" or a "Penetrating Hit." This is the same hit, just with additional nomenclature. The smoke gets rid of the entire hit.

 

Really? Because you're forgetting a hit that fails to penetrate...

 

The smoke allows you to ignore the damaging effect of the hit. But you've still hit the target. For instance, and I'm pushing the example - If I fire a vindicator at your Rhino, and clip 3 marines in the blast next to the Rhino, but your Rhino makes its cover save - by what you've written above, there would be no hit to affect the marines. Which is obviously not what you meant it to mean, but is what you've written.

 

(maybe playing a bit of devils advocate here - but I wonder if there's a bit more to think about here)

[Seahawk]

No, I've included that. "Hit (generic)" includes those that do not penetrate. Smoke does not do what you say it does; it only provides a cover save. Cover saves for vehicles may only be taken against Glancing or Penetrating hits; this does not include Hits (generic).

 

Also, that is not at all what I wrote. It discards the Glancing or Penetrating Hit against the vehicle, and that is it (infantry have to make their own eligible cover saves). Again, cover saves cannot be used against Hits (generic) because they do not cause any damage, just the same as you cannot take an armor save against any hits that do not wound infantry.

[Leonaides]

Next, with a further test, they are sub-defined as either a "Glancing Hit" or a "Penetrating Hit."

Here - you should have non-damaging hit in here since at the moment you are subdividing all hits into glancing or penetrating. But thats just me being picky. I'll admit that.

 

Now perhaps the question is what they mean by 'discarded'. Is it possible that the vehicle is still 'hit' as in a scucessful hit roll, but the cover save discards the effect of the hit (where it says no roll is made on the vehicle damage table). Note - smoke/cover doesnt invalidate the actual AV roll - it simply discards the effect.