Redemption2994 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I normally play 40k with one guy around here. We both run 3 different armies. I have recently been toying with Tyranids, but after a god awful mess of Tyranids being butchered by 5 Grey Knight Paladins, I think I need a new solution other than drowning them in Biomass. Upon Further Studying my Codex's CSM and Daemon respectively, it seems that Khorne Daemons have the best chance with those power weapons because Blessing of the Blood God offers a 2+ Invulnerable to their Nemesis Force Weapons. However, they just pump them full of bullets leaving my bloodletters to get mowed down by the Gatling Psilencer, The Bloodthirster to get Banished and the Juggernaughts to a series of brutal Power Weapon hits. Not to mention, Grey Knights hunt Daemons... With all those rules that make it easy to devour them, their best defences become their worst feature. They're immune to instant death and get invulnerables to Power Hits, but they have no armor and the Juggernaughts aren't cutting it. So that leaves me deeply discouraged when fighting a Draigo army (his preference, 10 Paladins, Draigo, and Librarian and a Storm Raven). This list has demolished anything Nids could Muster, The Daemons took a worse hit than I could have imagined, and after Three Games today, My CSM Army suffered under an even worse blow. His advice was to make a shooter based army instead of my usual Close Combat Kill Maim Burn! list. I attempted to run a Tzeentch list, which having plenty of Bolts of Change was nice, and Warptime helped too, but when they got close, which was an Inevitibility (even after taking the Storm Raven out of the sky), my army was slaughtered. Khârn died to a flurry of Halberd Stabs, my DP was hit by Draigo at S10 and punished brutally. And every shot up till the bumrush, Draigo took on his 3+ Invulnerable. And supposing a shot got through, we're talking an Apothecary handing out Feel No Pain pills. Seriously, can someone call bull**** with me? It took everything I had to focus on the first squad of paladins that the second arrived untouched backed up by a Dreadknight. Since he bought that Librarian its been far worse... Vortex of Doom S10 AP1, Quicksilver I10, Might of Titan +S1 and +D6 for Penetration. Either the GK Codex is awfully unbalanced or I am a tactical failure. I have never pulled a win. Regardless, Im not here to complain. But I need to know, how do you guys handle Grey Knight lists while attempting to Adhere to a Khornate Standard? Are we not the masters of Hand to Hand? Shooting has done nothing for me, I need some faith in the Chain Axe. What would you guys recommend for a 1500 list? I've got 20 Zerkers, 25 Assorted CSM, Daemon Prince, a Defiler, some Havocs (1 Lascannon 3 Missile Launchers) 6 Termies, 2 Lords (one riding the Juggernaught!), and 1500 points worth of Khorne Daemons. Flesh Hounds, Bloodthirster, 20 Letters, and 3 Juggernaughts, A Herald (Proxy my Lord as a Jugger Herald) and Skulltaker. Out of these Resources, what would you guys recommend I use to combat Draigo's Reign of Terror? PS. I apologize for my angry sounding post lol, this is deeply frustrating to have my favorite army, one I've invested the most time and money into, kicked around as though its a joke. (See Ivory jokes in Sig below) Edit: Yes I know I need a Land Raider... that could solve some problems... Kinda short on money atm though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Grius Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't have time to make a long post, so I will recommend a couple units that may help you. 5 Havocs with 4 Plasmaguns in Rhino @ 170 pts. Also, remember that our termis actually shoot just as well as their S5 termis. We have TL guns. They will stomp us in CC though. How do we fix that? Prepare a counter-assault unit. Try something like 8-10 Terminators with TL Bolters and maybe a couple Reaper Autocannons. You will shoot just as hard as GK Terminators, but will come in at only 360 points at most. That is 100 points cheaper than a similarly armed GK unit. Make sure to keep one or two units of Berzerkers behind your Terminators so if they get tied up you can rush in to lay down some pain. Also, Khârn will get instant Death'd but Abaddon does well against GK Termis and Paladins especially. I wish you luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juiced Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Khârn, will only get insta gibbed by a hammer, force swords only count as power weapons against him. You definitely need to get the charge on them to stand a chance the paladins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 As my Comrades said. And its true that GK is just a hell of unbalanced stuff... The worst part is that its an Anti Chaos army,where Chaos army's are allready subpar compared to a lot of Dexes... Wihout the Anti Chaos rules and things,they are allready ridiculous,but adding Anti Chaos rules on top of a Roxxor army...its the badest designe flaw i've ever saw of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staxer Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Last week I played in a 4 player, 2000 points a player Chaos v IG / GK. I was the GK's with Draigo, Libarian, Paladin Squad, Terminators & Thawn Squad, Eversor & Tech marine with Grenade Goodness. IG had some veterans, a commissar Lord, couple of Clossus, couple of Banewolf and the Plasma Armed Leman Russ Executioners. We faced a lot of Havocs and Obliterators, CSM, A Winged DP, Khârn and Rhino full of Zerkers, couple of Melta Chosen squads, biker squad and a Squad of Deathguard. Well GK/IG won by long range Plasma and Colossus Death and mid-range GK shooting. Khârn & Cronies hurt a Combat Squad of Paladins (an awful lot of attacks on the charge did it). Khârn was undone by GK shooting easier than CCing him. What hurt GK most was Combi-Plasma from bikers until they were charged by Paladins and skewered by Halberds and hammer hand. Melta Chosen instant killed paladins until they were whittled down. Obliterators and havocs are wasting there time trying a long range duel with tanks and Artillery. I am also a Chaos player and I think there best hope against GK is mid to short range shooting (melta, plasma, combi) followed by multi-unit charges as quick as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't have time to make a long post, so I will recommend a couple units that may help you. 5 Havocs with 4 Plasmaguns in Rhino @ 170 pts. Also, remember that our termis actually shoot just as well as their S5 termis. We have TL guns. They will stomp us in CC though. How do we fix that? Prepare a counter-assault unit. Try something like 8-10 Terminators with TL Bolters and maybe a couple Reaper Autocannons. You will shoot just as hard as GK Terminators, but will come in at only 360 points at most. That is 100 points cheaper than a similarly armed GK unit. Make sure to keep one or two units of Berzerkers behind your Terminators so if they get tied up you can rush in to lay down some pain. Also, Khârn will get instant Death'd but Abaddon does well against GK Termis and Paladins especially. I wish you luck. Thats pretty good advice. I asked to use some SM Termies to Proxy the ones I dont have an he's cool with that, so Im gonna start building a list. I have a couple Reaper Autocannons as is. My strategy before had been to use Chosen with a Tzeentch banner, fill them with Melta Guns so the could hold up the other guys with their Invulnerable save. I may use them as a Deep Strike icon instead with their infiltrate and footslog my Zerkers up the rear and drop the Termies up front with Abbadon to slow the Advance. My Havocs have been doing well with shooting the Storm Raven out of the sky, so if I can force them to walk that could give me a chance. I'll have to let you guys know how this works out. Damn, I really do gotta buy a Land Raider though... Footslogging takes forevar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 The result of two games, Army List Took 2 Squads of Berzerkers with an Aspiring and a Power Weapon. Abbadon and Khârn, Havocs, 1 Lascannon, 3 Missile Launchers, and 2 groups of 4 Termies, 1 with a Reaper in Each. First game, the Berzerkers got blown away by the Raven in 2 turns before the Termies could Arrive. Khârn got slaughtered by Halberds. Abbadon and his Termies arrived late and were mowed down by 2 squads of paladins while the Dreadknight ate the other 4 Termies. The Chosen were shot to death by the Dreadknight in the turn before. Game 2, The chosen were shot by the Dreadknight and blown away by a Flat Out from the Storm Raven and an assault by Draigo and his Paladins. The Berzerkers were stuck at the edge of the board, the Havocs failed to take down the Storm Raven because of its 4+ cover from flatout. One set of termies deepstriked off the board, Abbadon Scattered between the 2 paladin squads and was shot up and torn apart by Quicksilver. At that point, the Dreadknight had been tangling with 10 Berzerkers to which it suffered 2 wounds and blew away the remaining 5 with a Gatling Psilencer. Moral of the Story, Storm Ravens are fast, Deepstrike Mishaps Suck, Abaddon can't fight 10 paladins and Draigo by himself, and Berzerkers don't like plasma weapons. Any advice? (Im starting to think I am a tactical failure...) Final Thoughts: I started reading Draigos page and we found something Interesting... Draigo gets a 3+ Inv from a Storm Shield. Nemesis Force "SWORD" Key word, Sword, adds to the Invulnerable by 1. Draigo's Titan Sword or whatever its called, (was too busy overthinking to remember its name) counts as a Mastercrafted Force Weapon. Force WEAPON. with Daemon's Bane rule... Not a Force Sword. That means he has a 3+ in CC, not a 2+ Invulnerable, like a Warding Stave... Rules as Written would double my chances of success in CC... Instead of 16% to wound, he now has 33% to wound. Thats a huge breakthrough for me. He agreed that Rules as Written, Draigo doesn't get the +1 to his Invulnerable save in CC, mainly because now he feels bad for using such an OP codex. So far, Abaddon looks to be the best chance of killing Draigo and his Paladins. Im gonna have to rework my list to center around his survival and him being able to make an unimpeded assault. I may replace Khârn (Khorne be praised!) for more Meltas in this situation and possibly more 2 more Terminators and gear the group with Combi Plasmas for the sake of dealing more damage in that short chance to exchange fire. Any opinions, I'd love to hear em. I don't want to be bested by a loyalist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I started reading Draigos page and we found something Interesting... Draigo gets a 3+ Inv from a Storm Shield. Nemesis Force "SWORD" Key word, Sword, adds to the Invulnerable by 1. Draigo's Titan Sword or whatever its called, (was too busy overthinking to remember its name) counts as a Mastercrafted Force Weapon. Force WEAPON. with Daemon's Bane rule... Not a Force Sword. That means he has a 3+ in CC, not a 2+ Invulnerable, like a Warding Stave... I don't know, man. Cutting such a fine hair I think violates the spirit of the game. It's a Titan Sword, not a Titan Weapon. It sucks being outclassed so hard by a newer codex, but that's an argument I'd personally be too embarrassed to make. I stopped assaulting my friends' Grey Knight armies. I shoot them now instead. Where they have lots of Inv Saves I try to shoot them a lot. I also run as much armor as I can, and the Gk forced me into taking Obliterators where I didn't use to so much. And Chosen tooled up with melta or plasma. Lots of trying to stay in cover and shoot, lots of trying to mask movement with terrain, lots of praying to the Ruinous Powers for a grant of luck... We will have our day in the sun of new codices someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 He actually brought the point up. I think he felt bad for me not inflicting a single casualty the entire second game lol. It was that bad... I would never try that with anyone else, I feel embarassed enough admitting to being outclassed lol Armor is probably what I need to get into, something without Daemonic Possession, ends up giving Draigo an S10 hit on it. Do appreciate the opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I feel your pain, though. Most of the time I end up in the mid-game trying to figure out how to force a draw or making desperate win or lose gambits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Indeed, its one thing to be outnumbered 3 to 1, but its totally different if 3 guys cannot kill one guy. If it in turn takes 2 squads of our finest troops to possibly injure, maybe, maybe just maybe kill one, then theres an issue... I also have a slightly offtopic question about this, In the old Chaos Codex, were we allowed access to Plasma Cannons? I got an oldschool Terminator Lord off the GW site and it came with an Alternate arm that appears to be a Plasma Cannon, nowhere in the Codex, aside from an Obliterator, do I see Plasma Cannons in our Armory. That could potentially be a weapon that could work well on Grey Knights for inflicting decent wound counts. (Obviously not for CSM, but other armies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Grius Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I read over all your posts, Redemption, and I have to agree you should not take Khârn against GK. It looks like you had some trouble with your force arriving in pieces. Personally, I don't believe 3 or 4 bolters will do much to any valuable target. I strongly recommend running all 8 of those Terminators together to shoot in unity. The advantage of breaking them up is getting more Autocannons, but the Strength tradeoff isn't as valuable against GK as forced wound allocation. If you can do all your wounds together, then they have to start taking saves on the models they don't want to. I.E. Apothecary/Halberd/Banner. Definitely agree that the Power Weapons in the Berzerkers are a good choice, but remember these guys are your backup for those Terminators. Have them hang out in their Rhinos and ready to lay a beating on anything that threatens Abaddon's guard. I hope you have more luck. GK are tough for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wait...din't you like put Khârn and his Zerkers retinue in a Rhino or something?... Because when i read your report,it seems that your Zerkers where shoot down while they where footslogging and that Khârn was left alone... Thats how i read it. And if it is like this,then there lies your error in using Khârn... You must always,always!,put Khârn in a Zerker unit,in a Rhino or a LR,never on foot! Even with those Gk's Hallberd(+2 init is just ridiculous...),they don't have enough attacks to kill all the unit,so Khârn would still be alive with a couple zerkers and a PF Champ,wich should be more then enough to obliterate them! Khârn is the only mini of the whole dex that can look at those GK whimps and say " bah...Force weapons...what a joke",and strike them with 7 S6 Attacks that Hit on 2's!!! Against a 5 man unit he can take'em on is own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I started reading Draigos page and we found something Interesting... Draigo gets a 3+ Inv from a Storm Shield. Nemesis Force "SWORD" Key word, Sword, adds to the Invulnerable by 1. Draigo's Titan Sword or whatever its called, (was too busy overthinking to remember its name) counts as a Mastercrafted Force Weapon. Force WEAPON. with Daemon's Bane rule... Not a Force Sword. That means he has a 3+ in CC, not a 2+ Invulnerable, like a Warding Stave... I don't know, man. Cutting such a fine hair I think violates the spirit of the game. It's a Titan Sword, not a Titan Weapon. It sucks being outclassed so hard by a newer codex, but that's an argument I'd personally be too embarrassed to make. Dunno...the Name of this thing is Titan Sword indeed,but the description is not a Force Sword, but a Force weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Wait...din't you like put Khârn and his Zerkers retinue in a Rhino or something?... Because when i read your report,it seems that your Zerkers where shoot down while they where footslogging and that Khârn was left alone... Thats how i read it. And if it is like this,then there lies your error in using Khârn... You must always,always!,put Khârn in a Zerker unit,in a Rhino or a LR,never on foot! Even with those Gk's Hallberd(+2 init is just ridiculous...),they don't have enough attacks to kill all the unit,so Khârn would still be alive with a couple zerkers and a PF Champ,wich should be more then enough to obliterate them! Khârn is the only mini of the whole dex that can look at those GK whimps and say " bah...Force weapons...what a joke",and strike them with 7 S6 Attacks that Hit on 2's!!! Against a 5 man unit he can take'em on is own! *sheepish look* Umm... no actually I didnt... What happened in game 2 was he broke away to cut the Storm Raven up, but moving at top speed forced it to hit on a 6, or atleast that was my interpretation. Left me with only 3 penetrating blows, to which I rolled two 1s and a 3, which he was able to cut off a Mindstrike Missile. From there Draigo popped out and shot him to death and the berzerkers ate plasma cannon. I always keep Khârn nearby two groups of Berzerkers, always part of one, unless I have him do a solo assault on a vehicle. However, I have not been using much for armor. In game one he was able to get his attacks off when he rushed with the berzerkers and only wounded a paladin to be honest. It was combination bad dice rolls and bad timing. They saved every invulnerable but one Honestly I was put off by Rhinos back in the beginning playing against a guardsman army who carry Lascannon's like its their business. Always blew up my rhino in round 1 and left me with a pinned group of CSM. If I can't afford a LR atm, should I go back to using Rhinos? (he's got both of mine atm) Edit: I need to know also, does Khârn's hit on a two plus count for Vehicles? My interpretation was only on models with a Weapon Skill, as read in the CSM FAQs. If that thing moves atleast 12 inches, I can only peg it on a 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 I started reading Draigos page and we found something Interesting... Draigo gets a 3+ Inv from a Storm Shield. Nemesis Force "SWORD" Key word, Sword, adds to the Invulnerable by 1. Draigo's Titan Sword or whatever its called, (was too busy overthinking to remember its name) counts as a Mastercrafted Force Weapon. Force WEAPON. with Daemon's Bane rule... Not a Force Sword. That means he has a 3+ in CC, not a 2+ Invulnerable, like a Warding Stave... I don't know, man. Cutting such a fine hair I think violates the spirit of the game. It's a Titan Sword, not a Titan Weapon. It sucks being outclassed so hard by a newer codex, but that's an argument I'd personally be too embarrassed to make. Dunno...the Name of this thing is Titan Sword indeed,but the description is not a Force Sword, but a Force weapon. Also, this thread clears it up for us. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=235217 Not a Nemesis Force Sword, just a special Force Weapon with nemesis abilities (ie daemonsbane). Kind of funny actually. The boys down in the Inquisition don't tell us these things for a reason :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Gotta admit,separating Khârn from his meatshield squad to go get a Fast skimmer who moved flat out,wasn't the brigthest idea of the week. The Gorechiled 2D6's Penetration is nice,but it is way beter against slow moving type vehicles or Walkers,Khârn is the only model in the game who can tear open a Dreadnought without any PF or CM rule(appart from termies and chainbladefist) And yes Khârn only hit on a 2+ Vs WS value (even if it is a Walker!). And its not because one IG guy had the luck to pop your Rhinos in 1st turn that it will happen all the time! At least even if they get destroyed its the vehicle who take the hit,not your Zerkers! Always,always and under all circumstances put your Men in Rhino's/LR's. So next time,even if Khârn as a 2D6 Penetration,use him as he is intendent to be used;Severe Skull mauling!,getting a vehicle is only a bonus. Also when throwing the dices give a quick prayer to Khorne,always helps :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thank you kindly. I'll see about getting those Rhinos back. Hopefully that will make a difference. I think I'll leave Khârn in the Rhino with his Zerkers next time. After talking with my buddy He's planning on getting his IG army back together. So it may be a little bit before i see those silver bastards again. In the mean time, Blood For The Blood God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liba terminatus Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Acording to their fluff to be a paladin you must slay one of the 666 most powerful deamons... So yea they would be tough as nails... Draigo is even sillier because he backhands mortarion and carves a name into is heart Anyways as said you NEVER leave Khârn without a rhino. Have you tried combi melta on your rhinos? I find it funny when a tiny rhino blows a land raider in one shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Redemption2994: that would be terminator sorcerer they released during the medusa campaign a couple of years ago. when it first came out it had four arms you could choose to put on it: a right-handed power sword, a left-handed combi-melta, a right-handed kai gun, and a left-handed lightning claw. i'm guessing you reacted on the kai gun, since it used to be sort of like a strength 6 assault 2 plasma gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Acording to their fluff to be a paladin you must slay one of the 666 most powerful deamons... So yea they would be tough as nails... You forgot the part where they do it naked with nothing but a sword, something else about killing a herald of each ruinous power ontop of that while being trapped on some daemon world, still naked if Im not mistaken. I do appreciate the advice. I've only been playing 40k for a year now and I'm still learning new things with every game I play. Redemption2994: that would be terminator sorcerer they released during the medusa campaign a couple of years ago. when it first came out it had four arms you could choose to put on it: a right-handed power sword, a left-handed combi-melta, a right-handed kai gun, and a left-handed lightning claw. i'm guessing you reacted on the kai gun, since it used to be sort of like a strength 6 assault 2 plasma gun. Ahh thank you. I've been wondering about that since I got the bugger. Much appreciation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Chaos gets meltaguns, right? Do you guys get multi-meltas? Sorry to flounder, but I sympathize with Draigo and his bro-cannon toting bros being a pain. S8 will insta-gib a 2W paladin. AP1 will ignore their FNP and their 2+ saves, leaving them with a 5+ and a fair chance of being vaporized. If you only have one per unit, Draigo will just soak it on his 3++/Eternal Warrior face, however if you can stack them in a Havoc or Elite squad, hit them with three or more of such weapons and withhold bolter fire to prevent would allocation games. He'll take one on Draigo and have to take one on a Paladin. Keep doing this and he'll fail some saves and lose some pallies. Even Draigo, eventually. Something else will help you here: Vindicator spam. Plasma spam won't insta-gib them, but it will wear them down, especially in some elite-style unit that doesn't have boltguns to give him 2+ saveable wounds to play allocation games with. In general, put as much fire into them as you can. I'd also sacrifice Rhinos to build a wall to hinder their foot-slogging game. Unexploded wrecks will slow them down with dangerous terrain checks. (Don't do this in a KP game. <3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liba terminatus Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Oops missed the naked thing indeed lol especially when I have the codex on hand... You could give vindicators a go... Template of death is bound to screw someone :yes: Offttopic: you guys should check (game) space marine's multiplayer it has chaos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redemption2994 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Already got my copy Preorder at my local Gamestop! I think if I'm gonna buy some Armor, I'd best get 2 LRs. Now I have another question, do you guys put Zerkers in groups of 10 or 8? Capacity on a raider is 10, so would I cut out one Zerker for Khârn, or just shave off 2 from each group? I've heard alot of people split them up differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liba terminatus Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I believe it's for two reasons cheaper and its khorne's magic number otherwise I ain't got a clue lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.