How best to transport a librarian in a rhino army?

[antique_nova]

So after a few games with the list below:

 

1750 points

 

Grand Master

Librarian - 4 spells, mgith of titna, quick silver, shroudhing and warp rift

 

10 purifers. 7 halberds, 2 psycannons and a MC thunder hammer in a rhino

 

10 GK SS. 2 psycannons and a MC thunder hammer in a rhino

10 GK SS. 2 psycannons and a MC thunder hammer in a rhino

10 GK SS. 2 psycannons and a MC thunder hammer in a rhino

2x psyriflemen dreads - the psybolt autocannon ones

 

i encountered an annoying problem in my plans, my two ICs were running on foot, but due to my dreadsnoughts and rhinos, the opponents never bothered to shoot them because i was always hiding them behind +3 cover saving rhinos or rhinos that forgot to smoke or in GK units that just disembarked. The thing is, while my librarian was doing a far amount with his spells. The grand master was, well, useless. He hardly ever got into combat - the fat toad.

 

His scoring ability for my riflemen dreads, meant that if i chose my dreadsnoughts for scoring, then i would most likely have to keep them at the far end of the table in my DZ, away from my away and they wouldnt be boosting my anti-psyker potential, p[lus they would lose the awesome support of my libby and his shrouding.

 

Also, scouting presented two problems; if i scout the rhinos, they had less support than the rest of the army and would expose my ICs too much for my liking with all the lascannons and what not. Plus scouting dreadsnoughts never made too much sense as you usually put them in the best places possible before the game even begun.

 

So, i decided to take off the GM and i even considered taking off the purifers to fit a chimera in - since it's the only transport that isn't a land raider being able to transport termiantors.

 

And so, after discussing with fellow experienced players, i decided one the loadout below:

 

1x Inquisitor with rad grenades = 40 points

3x warrior acoltyes with melta guns = 42 points

3x Death cult assassins

1x librarian

1x chimera

 

This unit would address a few issues for my army and GKs in general. The lack of melta weapnary, because my psycannons are crap verses AV14, it's just in my dice rolls. and the inquisitor with his rad grenades with my libby casting might of titans can make my DCAs hit on 3s on most things and strike at S5 with D26 for armour pen, while reducing your toughness by 1.

 

They are almost like a purifer unit, if i had say 3 more, they could do what a 10 man purfier unit can do, for a far cheaper price - in close combat of course.

The fact that the unit is also in a chimera increases their front armour protection and allows my libby to keep pace with my rhino army. So i can do what i have always wanted to do with the GK army.

 

Drive the full 12 inches into the battlefield, pop smoke and cast shrouding with little fear of any of my units dying first turn - that is if i get first turn of course.

 

So what do the fellow grek knights think?

 

thanks

antique_nova

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The best way in my opinion to transport a character in TDA is an Inquistorial chimera. That means though you can't have a GM and Libby obviously. Might want to also consider a Stormraven... Bit cheaper than the landraider variants.

 

G ;)

[antique_nova]

You can, just take a inquisitor with his retinue and stick the libby that unit before them embark onto that transport.

[Leonaides]

Its more the problem of having 3 HQ's in a Force Org Chart i think...

[neonfunk]

Hey Antique_Nova,

 

I posted a similar thread, thought it might help since it ties in nicely with your topic....

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=233165

 

Cheers

[antique_nova]

Its more the problem of having 3 HQ's in a Force Org Chart i think...

 

I only have two. The inquisitor and a librarian and the inquisitior's retinue doesn't take up a slot on the FOC. I took out the grand master as he is just a brother captain with sprinklers, shouting flower power! ^^

 

thanks for the link neonpunk.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[neonfunk]

The way I see it, the Libby is primarily played in two ways:

 

1) A Buff(s) for the rest of your army, and;

2) Aggressive way to accurately DS (w/ teleport homer) and summoning to get units where u want them.

 

The first way, is a relatively less aggressive approach, requiring the libby to be in a "central position" in your army, so a chimera suffices for this approach. This however, delivers us into a situation where our other HQ MUST be an Inquisitor.

The second way, is best done IMO w/ LR/SR. Extra speed and durability with these vehicles (compared to chimera) would favour approach No. 2) regarding libby and DS/summoning.

 

First is definately cheaper points wise obviously, but restricts your HQ (which can be somewhat compensated by DK's) IMO of course!

[antique_nova]

The way I see it, the Libby is primarily played in two ways:

 

1) A Buff(s) for the rest of your army, and;

2) Aggressive way to accurately DS (w/ teleport homer) and summoning to get units where u want them.

 

The first way, is a relatively less aggressive approach, requiring the libby to be in a "central position" in your army, so a chimera suffices for this approach. This however, delivers us into a situation where our other HQ MUST be an Inquisitor.

The second way, is best done IMO w/ LR/SR. Extra speed and durability with these vehicles (compared to chimera) would favour approach No. 2) regarding libby and DS/summoning.

 

First is definately cheaper points wise obviously, but restricts your HQ (which can be somewhat compensated by DK's) IMO of course!

 

I like approach one as it is the most realistc, commanders of forces are generally buffers for their armies. Unless your actually a ground pounder like a captain in 40k and not a librarian. The second approach is riskier and is more of an all eggs in one basket plan than plan A IMO.

 

Obviously, being aggressive is good, but being too agggressive makes you forgo other more realistic and reliable options - not to mention more favourable ones too.

 

EDIT: I don't really see how option one restricts your HQ option since all i want to take is a libby and an inquisitor anyway ;). Also to use summoning, your libby has to get there in the first place, where as with option one, you usually have to bust through several rhinos and a chimera before being able to eat the librarian from close quarters (emperor help anyone silly enough to try with 40 GKs defending him) or from a far.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Angelis Mortis]

Personally, I think its a total waste to transport models in Terminator armor in anything that doesn't have an assault ramp. Barring that, Deep Strike or slogg it. Rhinos and Chimeras are for non-TDA IMHO.

[antique_nova]

Personally, I think its a total waste to transport models in Terminator armor in anything that doesn't have an assault ramp. Barring that, Deep Strike or slogg it. Rhinos and Chimeras are for non-TDA IMHO.

Completely true..........to a certain extent. But my army has 4 other rhinos fulled with 4 units of 10 grek knights. Do you really need a transport with an assault ramp after that? - not that i wouldn't be cool if suddenly all our rhinos had assaultramps :P.

 

The role of my terminator in the chimera is to primarily buff and keep pace with my army - if he gets the chance to hit the enemy psyhically, without taking a big risk to my chances of winning, then he can have a bite too.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Crynn]

Personally, I think its a total waste to transport models in Terminator armor in anything that doesn't have an assault ramp. Barring that, Deep Strike or slogg it. Rhinos and Chimeras are for non-TDA IMHO.

 

If the character is not dependent on being in combat (librarian) then why is it an issue to have an assault ramp?

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Angelis Mortis]

Personally, I think its a total waste to transport models in Terminator armor in anything that doesn't have an assault ramp. Barring that, Deep Strike or slogg it. Rhinos and Chimeras are for non-TDA IMHO.

 

If the character is not dependent on being in combat (librarian) then why is it an issue to have an assault ramp?

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

I dunno about you, but my Librarians are quite awesome in combat. Keeping him out is wasting half his potential.

[antique_nova]

Personally, I think its a total waste to transport models in Terminator armor in anything that doesn't have an assault ramp. Barring that, Deep Strike or slogg it. Rhinos and Chimeras are for non-TDA IMHO.

 

If the character is not dependent on being in combat (librarian) then why is it an issue to have an assault ramp?

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

I dunno about you, but my Librarians are quite awesome in combat. Keeping him out is wasting half his potential.

 

He's just a justicer with a bigger wand and better armour. *pun intended. I don't see bthe need for him to get into combat very often when i have four other grey knight units ready to do so.

[neonfunk]

Libby in CC? NO WAY! (only IF i'm correct in the assumption that you cant cast spells like summoning, or quicksilver if the libby is engaged in combat).

 

Obviously, he cant use any spells that are ffensive/shooting attacks in CC

 

So... Can Libby still cast spells if he's engaged in CC?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

N.B on the libby and transport issue, I attempted to construct a build, with an aggressive approach in mind. i.e. using the libby for accurate DS/summoning, and popping the shrouding etc... 1 libby + 1 LR +renitune for libby (e.g. GKT's), and that is already 700 points!!! without upgrades!! I maintain, that my 2nd way to use he libby, as mentioned above ^, would get costly! Any ideas?

[thade]

The Libby can cast buff spells on other while in CC (Sanctuary, Quickening, etc.) which I feel is his greatest power. Also, if he's got a Warding Stave, he's got a 2++ in CC vs both the unit and Perils of the Warp.

 

If you don't like foot-slogging him alone because at 5++ he can't take all the anti-tank fire your opponents are pouring on him, give him a squad t slog with him. Drop a squad of PAGK to link up with him so they can soak some of the hits for him. Sure, 20 pts per model getting insta-gibbed hurts...but not as much as losing your 200-something point Librarian. ;)

[antique_nova]

The Libby can cast buff spells on other while in CC (Sanctuary, Quickening, etc.) which I feel is his greatest power. Also, if he's got a Warding Stave, he's got a 2++ in CC vs both the unit and Perils of the Warp.

 

If you don't like foot-slogging him alone because at 5++ he can't take all the anti-tank fire your opponents are pouring on him, give him a squad t slog with him. Drop a squad of PAGK to link up with him so they can soak some of the hits for him. Sure, 20 pts per model getting insta-gibbed hurts...but not as much as losing your 200-something point Librarian. ;)

 

For everything else there's master card. Please report to your nearest inquisitorial scam centre for further details.

 

On a more serious note, stick him in a chimera with an inquisitor and his retinue and you'll be fine.

 

Neonfunk: Your approach is aggressive, but reckless. In many ways, the first being that it's in one transport. If you faced me, you would have to deal with 8 psycannons which would stand and shoot (giving me 32 psycannon shots) and that's excluding my 3 melta shots. I don't think any amount of 3+ cover saves will help you there (assuming you manage to stop me dispelling you too).

 

I don't know the math hammer, but i am pretty sure that means a dead land raider and i doubt your libby would be alive to cast his spells once combat ensures - as i would hit him with everything and just cast warp quake everywhere.

 

But enough about how it would fair against my list. My main point is, you need more distractions! Because if someone sees just one land raider to shoot, that's all their going to shoot. So why not stick a GK unit with the libby like thade has suggested and possibly have two dreadknights supporting the land raider.

 

The dreadknights can attempt to hide 50% of themselves, while staying within 6 inches of the libby as you smoke turn. Giving your LR and two DKs +3 cover saves. next turn if your guys arrive. Your opponent will be terrified or worried about two DK moving in and most likely he will shoot them instead of your land raider.

 

You drive up, cast cast cast ( and hope that your opponent doesn't dispell you ) and your okay, assuming that your plan is solid and your dice rolls are too ;).

 

The disadvantage with your plan is as soona s you come against a list with a farseer or librarian that isn't chaos. Your in a bit of a pickle, so the plan is to make sure that your list has back up plans to support plan B if plan A is becomes unreliable and unrealistic.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[thade]

Naturally, any rock you can imagine will beat my scissors; I'm not sure how that can be constructive here though. You did ask for advice on how to help a Librarian in a rhino-centric force and another poster suggested Libby's are no good in combat. I attempted to address both questions. ;)

 

Farseers, Shadow on the Warp, Librarians, Rune Priests, and the like are going to make your Librarian much less effective; however if he's in combat he's got that 2++ from the ward stave to help him mitigate the Perils he'll take casting against the former two. Really, the entire force suffers a bit against such odds (Brotherhood of Psykers and all)...but then that's only impetus to kill the farseer/librarian/rune priest responsible for it all.

[antique_nova]

The thing is, that you will most likely spells during the first two turns of the gfame when your not in combat - against eldar however, you shouldn't really need to cast any type of spell.

 

People using librarians should take note that librarians are extra support that help you win by a more comfortable margin whether casting spells or dispelling them, they are not there to win games, they are their to help games.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[thade]

People using librarians should take note that librarians are extra support that help you win by a more comfortable margin whether casting spells or dispelling them, they are not there to win games, they are their to help games.

 

To add to your point: no single model or unit should be fundamental to your strategy. In other words, there should be no single thing in your list that costs you the game if you lose it. Every unit should be viewed as somehow adding to your list, supporting and being supported by other elements in the list.

[antique_nova]

People using librarians should take note that librarians are extra support that help you win by a more comfortable margin whether casting spells or dispelling them, they are not there to win games, they are their to help games.

 

To add to your point: no single model or unit should be fundamental to your strategy. In other words, there should be no single thing in your list that costs you the game if you lose it. Every unit should be viewed as somehow adding to your list, supporting and being supported by other elements in the list.

 

 

Unless the model/unit is called antique_nova or thade ;).

[thade]

Unless the model/unit is called antique_nova or thade ;).

So, I have this weird and potentially annoying habit of using counts-as to rid my lists of "fluff inaccuracies", and as such I'm going to run Brother Captain Thade as a counts-as Draigo. I mean, c'mon: the Draio that the book entry talks about would cost easily 3000 points and be a match for a 3000 point Daemon army...that's in fact what he does every day, according to Ward.

 

So since this Draigo costs significantly less, I submit that he's not Draigo. He's me.

[antique_nova]

Unless the model/unit is called antique_nova or thade .

So, I have this weird and potentially annoying habit of using counts-as to rid my lists of "fluff inaccuracies", and as such I'm going to run Brother Captain Thade as a counts-as Draigo. I mean, c'mon: the Draio that the book entry talks about would cost easily 3000 points and be a match for a 3000 point Daemon army...that's in fact what he does every day, according to Ward.

 

So since this Draigo costs significantly less, I submit that he's not Draigo. He's me.

 

That's what i thought. The fluff makes Driago be able to been a titan or a greater daemon naked with his bare hands. His stats says, he would have trouble doing it with suit and sword. If they gave him cleansing flame + 10 attacks always wounding daemons on 2s, then he could stay loyal to his fluff. As Daemon bane can auto kill daemons.

thanks

antique_nova

[neonfunk]

Also, if he's got a Warding Stave, he's got a 2++ in CC vs both the unit and Perils of the Warp.

 

Hey Thade:

woah woah woah, did I read correctly?? Warding Stave gives 2++ against a perils attack?? Where exactly in the codex does it state that?? If that's the case, warding stave on librarian is going to be mandatory (IMO of course).

 

To Antique Nova:

Neonfunk: Your approach is aggressive, but reckless. In many ways, the first being that it's in one transport. If you faced me, you would have to deal with 8 psycannons which would stand and shoot (giving me 32 psycannon shots) and that's excluding my 3 melta shots. I don't think any amount of 3+ cover saves will help you there (assuming you manage to stop me dispelling you too).

 

I don't know the math hammer, but i am pretty sure that means a dead land raider and i doubt your libby would be alive to cast his spells once combat ensures - as i would hit him with everything and just cast warp quake everywhere.

 

But enough about how it would fair against my list. My main point is, you need more distractions! Because if someone sees just one land raider to shoot, that's all their going to shoot. So why not stick a GK unit with the libby like thade has suggested and possibly have two dreadknights supporting the land raider.

 

The dreadknights can attempt to hide 50% of themselves, while staying within 6 inches of the libby as you smoke turn. Giving your LR and two DKs +3 cover saves. next turn if your guys arrive. Your opponent will be terrified or worried about two DK moving in and most likely he will shoot them instead of your land raider.

 

You drive up, cast cast cast ( and hope that your opponent doesn't dispell you ) and your okay, assuming that your plan is solid and your dice rolls are too .

 

The disadvantage with your plan is as soona s you come against a list with a farseer or librarian that isn't chaos. Your in a bit of a pickle, so the plan is to make sure that your list has back up plans to support plan B if plan A is becomes unreliable and unrealistic.

 

You are 100% correct and I agree with you wholeheartedly, however, the point of me stating that I was constructing a build based on LR + Libby + GKT squad in a "aggressive" strategem, was meant to act purely as "evidence" that such an approach would be extremely costly. This sentiment is somewhat verified by your reply ^, i.e. "you need more distractions" = target saturation.... As I already mentioned, Libby, LR and retinue already comes in @ 700 points BARE BONES NAKED with no upgrades (not even Libby spells). Hence, adding in more "distractions" such as DK's.... VERY costly... 'tis all I wanted to point out.

[antique_nova]

No problem.

[thade]

Also, if he's got a Warding Stave, he's got a 2++ in CC vs both the unit and Perils of the Warp.

 

Hey Thade:

woah woah woah, did I read correctly?? Warding Stave gives 2++ against a perils attack?? Where exactly in the codex does it state that?? If that's the case, warding stave on librarian is going to be mandatory (IMO of course).

Per the most recent GK FAQ it certainly seems that way. While RAI makes it bollocks, RAW is pretty clear: if he's in CC, the Warding Stave is "active" and confers a 2++ invuln versus any wounds he receives while he's in CC. Not from CC; just while he's in CC.

 

Seem silly? I think so too, but there it is.