thor1234 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Right as the topic suggests I am building a 1750 point list of the finest grey knights for a tournie in a few months, in their last outing my knights averaged 19th out of 42 loosing 3 games and winning 3, my lack of anti-tank weaponary caused a problem for me, this time i want to make a bigger impact...... so to the point at hand............ my list has many Psycannons, Psyflemen and even a dreadknight, I have 2 strike squads in razors (not my only troops!! :huh: ) now do i build them with twin-linked Lascannons and go pure anti-tank OR do i take Twin-linked Assault Cannons with Psybolts (psycannons to you and me!) as they would add more diversity to the list knowing that I could be facing infantry and other nasties that the lascannons wouldn't be useful against.......... Talk to me brothers........ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasoX Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I would go for psycannons. I usually play against guard and nids, never needed lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankred Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I would go for psycannons/psiammo on assault cannons. One thing I can tell for sure: No Land Raider I shot at survived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thirding Psycannons; they're just about as good as lascannons at killing heavy armor (though admittedly there are times you'll miss that 48" range), and psycannons are better against light armor, not to mention what they do to infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Honestly, I'm a huge fan of the idea of Psycannons; however, since nobody's voicing any positives for "old faithful"... :( Lascannons have a 48" range and most of the ways you can get them in the GK book are twin-linked (LR, Razorback) so they have a high chance of hitting and S9 is very good at Penetrating. Grounding an opponent's Land Raider in his/her deployment zone is a very, very good thing. If you have the room and the desire, it can't hurt to field a single vehicle with a lascannon; its a great option for a backfield transport (either the RB or the LR) which is sitting on your home objective. With its 48" weapon it can lend a hand to your forward forces (who need to push to mid table and beyond to leverage their 24" range). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankred Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Well, if my math is right, then the Psycannon is just 10% less effective at destroying a land raider, but: it is far more powerful against other enemies, especially infantry, as you can fill the air with more little, nasty, boltrounds. So skip the lascannon and get lots of psycannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Well, if my math is right, then the Psycannon is just 10% less effective at destroying a land raider, but: it is far more powerful against other enemies, especially infantry, as you can fill the air with more little, nasty, boltrounds. So skip the lascannon and get lots of psycannons. Not to pick on you directly, but does your math include the engagement range of each weapon and what risks each needs to take given the engagement ranges of other weapons that may be on the table? 48" does add a good amount to effective survivability (i.e. its ability to contribute anti-vehicle fire to each turn), especially considering that the majority of your force engages at 24" (i.e. closer and a more present threat). Math's a fine tool but it is so often misused in this game. A simple 1v1 vacuum analysis more often than not clouds decision making in both list-building and field decisions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankred Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Ok, it´s just looking on hitting, and dealing damage, not on ranges, and so on. Actually: I´m fighting seldom on plates with the possibility to shot at ranges of more than 30", so my math is just doing it fine for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 You are an outlier than. <3 MEQ engagement range is 24"; so is GK. We're more effective at 24" in that we can move: they know it and thus they'll hold their ground so they can return fire. They're in no hurry to take us on fist-to-cuffs. Meanwhile, I'd like one unit to camp my backfield objective so I do in fact control it. I'd also like for them to contribute. Sounds like a use-case for a LC Razorback to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Well, if my math is right, then the Psycannon is just 10% less effective at destroying a land raider, but: it is far more powerful against other enemies, especially infantry, as you can fill the air with more little, nasty, boltrounds. So skip the lascannon and get lots of psycannons. When I math-hammer it out, I get: Psycannon: 4 shots (Twin-linked at BS 4 = .88 chance to his per shot) = 3.55 hits 3.55 hits @ Strength 7 + Rending vs AV 14 (Glances on a 6+1-2 = .055 chance to glance per shot, Penetrates on 6+ 3-6 = .11 chance to pen per hit ) = .394 penetrating hits, .197 glancing hits Lascannon: 1 shot (Twin-linked at BS 4 = .88 chance to his per shot) = .88 hits .88 hits @ Strength 9 vs AV 14 (Glances on a 5 = .167 chance per hit, Penetrates on a 6 = .167 chance per hit) = .148 penetrating hits, .148 glancing hits Of course, as thade pointed out, Mathhammer can't account for the tactical advantages of the lascannon's range. Since Land Raiders almost always have a really nasty assault unit inside, killing the Raider while it's far away and forcing said unit to spend several turns footslogging out in the open is a huge advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2841691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thor1234 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 true the lascannon does have superior range, i discovered in the last tournament that a tri-raider list is extremely duraible as i faced one down in a kill point mission (boy was i lucky!!! :)) i had 3 psycannons doing the shooting and i was able to pull off a 2-1 victory, killing two raiders and not much else loosing only the dreadknight....... but the lascannon would not have made a massive difference as i had a jokaero who hit quite consistently but couldn't actually hurt the thing..... this time round i have two crazy space monkeys in a rhino sitting at the back of the field who i will use to pour long range lascannon fire into the enemy i was trying to gage whether having two more twin-linked lascannons was going to deal more damage than the psycannons, no offence to you mathamaticians but i never put any stock in mathhammer, the dice always break probability and do what is unexpected of them anyway........ so i shall try psycannons and lascannons and see what works though i can guess that our friend the Psycannon will win out...... thanks again Brothers The Emperor Protects! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2842220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Fair point; statistical analysis is useful for figuring out averages, but you can get plenty of statistical outliers, like that time my opponent had to roll five armor saves for his five-man Terminator squad and lost them all. Sometimes, the Dice Gods laugh at the laws of probability. Also, one other thing to consider with the Psycannons vs. Lascannons debate; the Psycannon can get multiple penetrating/glancing hits. The odds of that happening against AV 14 aren't great, but it can happen, and it will be a nice bonus when it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2842278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Fair point; statistical analysis is useful for figuring out averages, but you can get plenty of statistical outliers, like that time my opponent had to roll five armor saves for his five-man Terminator squad and lost them all. Sometimes, the Dice Gods laugh at the laws of probability. People forget that those laws depend on massive sample sets...you won't roll enough dice over the course of a single game to really get a large enough sample to see it. EDIT: Unless you're like an Ork army that measures the number of dice you throw in dice cubes for a given assault phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235878-psycannons-or-lascannons/#findComment-2842433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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