assault query

[greatcrusade08]

hi fellas, i played a big game against B&Cs thantoes yesterday and a rules query came up.

 

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/001-15.jpg?t=1312791283

 

here we have a chaos lord on the left and the remnants of his termy squad on the right (a single dude with icon of khorne).. his powerfist sergeant is in base 2 base contact with the icon bearer.

i thought that you had to strike what you were in base contact with, but thantoes thought he could aim his powerfist at the lord, as he was within 2" of a model in bae contact with him.

 

it doesnt actually affect the result as i rolled waaay too many ones for my saves anyway, but id like some clarification as im running an event soon and i can get tied in knots with rules on occasion.

 

thanks all

[Morollan]

Pg 35 of the rulebook says models are engaged with any model in b2b and any models within 2" of a friendly model in b2b. Independent characters are treated as separate units but in the picture you posted it looks to me like all SM's would be within 2" of a model in b2b with either of the chaos models and therefore could choose who to attack.

 

I could well be wrong though so I look forward to some other comments.

[greatcrusade08]

i think i found what i was looking for, but again im not sure.

this is from the rulebook FAQ on multiple combats

 

"models that at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units must attack that unit"

Probably explains why i couldnt find it in the rulebook, its an FAQ

 

also can i get clarification on multiple assaults, it cofused me alot in our games..

if 2 units are locked in assault and another enemy unit charges in, is it correct that i cannot attack the 'new' assaulters in that turn?

i thought it was the same as any multiple combat, you hit whoever your in base contact with and anyone not in base contact can hit anyone thats in base contact of a squad member within 2"

[DarkGuard]

You are correct GC08, and as you have found out already the specific ruling is sitting in the WH40K FAQ. This is what makes planning assaults in the movement phase even more crucial, as you must move the nearest model to the nearest when initiating assaults, you want to send in a lesser person to tie up the front man, and get your big guns to where they need to be. It's also why people suggest putting the Sergeant behind a couple of people, makes it harder for him to get tied up and can distribute his attacks more easily.

[JamesI]

i think i found what i was looking for, but again im not sure.

this is from the rulebook FAQ on multiple combats

 

"models that at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units must attack that unit"

Probably explains why i couldnt find it in the rulebook, its an FAQ

 

also can i get clarification on multiple assaults, it cofused me alot in our games..

if 2 units are locked in assault and another enemy unit charges in, is it correct that i cannot attack the 'new' assaulters in that turn?

i thought it was the same as any multiple combat, you hit whoever your in base contact with and anyone not in base contact can hit anyone thats in base contact of a squad member within 2"

If a unit is in combat and gets charged, you determine who can hit who before rolling dice. A model must attack a unit he is in base with, unless he is in base with 2 different units then he can pick. There is no immunity from being attacked for the unit charging in.

[thade]

This is the entire reason I bring storm shield bearers in my vanguard units...or vanguard units at all. :huh: If I engage that power fist/power weapon/nasty IC with my Vanguard, that model is locked and can't choose his target via pile-in; that helps me shield my own ICs (e.g. my librarian) from that nasty IC so he can kill models in the unit and buff my own marines. If a model is in base-to-base with a model from a particular unit, it is that unit he must commit his attacks to. If a model is in base-to-base with models from more than one unit, then the model can choose or even split its attacks. If a model is NOT in BtB with anything but is within 2" of a model that is, it can commit its attacks to whatever units his 2"-away-buddy is in contact with. Finally, if there are more than one 2"-away-buddies each locked with different units, then the guy that couldn't quite reach can choose.

 

Granted, this will likely only last a phase...a second consolidate/pile-in will likely get that straggler locked in somewhere.

[Dan VK]

Do not forget that if a model is in base to base contact with an enemy model it must attack that model.

 

Example: Marine A is b2b with Hormagaunt 1. Marine B is b2b with Hormagaunt 2. Marine A is not b2b with Hormagaunt 2. Marine A is within 2" of Marine B. Marine A may not attack Hormagaunt 2. Marine A must attack Hormagaunt 1.

 

If Marine A is b2b with both Hormagaunt 1 and Hormagaunt 2, however, he can allocate his attacks however he wants.

[Seahawk]

This is actually covered by the BRB, without needing the FAQ:

 

"Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit." (p.41)

 

The important parts are in bold. Let's break that down for this scenario:

 

- Models: Powerfist Sergeant

- Engaged with: Terminator Squad (not the IC)

- At the beginning of the combat: Yes

- Must attack that unit: Okay

 

As James said, you work out who is engaged (in BTB or within 2" of a friend) at the start of the combat and it doesn't change until its end (p.35). In the box-out art on p.41, this example is clearly illustrated. Thantoes was incorrect; his powerfist cannot possibly attack the Chaos Lord...this turn :). The FAQ merely added a little extra for complete clarification.

 

if 2 units are locked in assault and another enemy unit charges in, is it correct that i cannot attack the 'new' assaulters in that turn?

No. There is absolutely no rule that supports this anywhere in existence (in this game). Any model can attack any unit it is engaged (BTB, 2" of friendly) with. "Beginning of the combat" is not equivalent to "Beginning of the Assault Phase" as some would have you believe.

[greatcrusade08]

is absolutely no rule that supports this anywhere in existence (in this game). Any model can attack any unit it is engaged (BTB, 2" of friendly) with. "Beginning of the combat" is not equivalent to "Beginning of the Assault Phase" as some would have you believe.

 

i think thats how people get this wrong tbh.

 

as for engaged, i think the counter argument is that engaged is described as being in B2B or within 2" of someone in B2B of a unit.. in the pic above the powerfist sergeant is within 2" of someone in B2B of the lord.. the FAQ definately helps to clear up that misunderstanding

 

thanks for helping me with this one fellas, i was pretty sure i was right, i just couldnt figure out how

[Meatman]

is absolutely no rule that supports this anywhere in existence (in this game). Any model can attack any unit it is engaged (BTB, 2" of friendly) with. "Beginning of the combat" is not equivalent to "Beginning of the Assault Phase" as some would have you believe.

 

i think thats how people get this wrong tbh.

 

If I'm honest I still don't understand this part, can someone explain in a bit more detail please?

[SeattleDV8]

If you look at the assault phase summary BRB PG.33

The assault phase starts with move all assaulting units, then the defenders react.

The third step is the 'start of combat' It is at this point you determine who can attack and where you can direct your attacks.

[Seahawk]

is absolutely no rule that supports this anywhere in existence (in this game). Any model can attack any unit it is engaged (BTB, 2" of friendly) with. "Beginning of the combat" is not equivalent to "Beginning of the Assault Phase" as some would have you believe.

 

as for engaged, i think the counter argument is that engaged is described as being in B2B or within 2" of someone in B2B of a unit.. in the pic above the powerfist sergeant is within 2" of someone in B2B of the lord.. the FAQ definately helps to clear up that misunderstanding

Yes it did. However, it was already clarified in the box out picture, where it shows models in BTB with one unit and stating they can only attack that unit. At least with the FAQ it's in big bold writing so everyone can clearly read it ;).

[thade]

It's funny, I just said this in another thread. :yes:

 

The term "engaged" doesn't entail whom or what you can swing at; it only entails whether a given model can use its attacks in an Assault phase or not. How you determine what models your model can swing at has already been explained in this thread. :cuss

[DarkGuard]

I remember a similar question that I answered a while back, and after some digging found my post to it. I hope it clears up some confusion, if it doesn't then please ignore it.

 

Context found here.

 

The key lies with the definition of "engaged", which reads as follows:

 

Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are said to 'locked in combat'. Within such units, the following models are said to be 'engaged' and must fight:

- Models in base contact with any enemy models.

- Models within 2" of at least one model in their unit that is in base contact with any enemy models.

 

Now you are right to say that models engaged with just one enemy unit in a multi assault has to attack that unit, but the power fist is engaged with two. He's engaged with the Ork IC because he's in base contact with him, but he's also engaged with the Ork Boyz unit because he's within 2" of a model in his unit that is in base contact with them. Therefore, under the rules in the rulebook he gets to choose which unit to attack.

 

Then we get to errata, which adds a third bullet point to the multi-combat rules, which reads as follows:

 

-Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

 

As the power fist was in base contact with the Ork IC, he must attack that model, and can't attack the Boyz even if he were engaged. So in the case of the power fist, you're still right, but for a different reason.

 

You're completely 100% right for the Ork IC though, he was only engaged with one enemy unit. The power fist was engaged with two enemy units, but had to strike the one in base contact with him. If, for example, he hadn't been in base contact with any of the units, but engaged with both (so sitting behind a normal guy in base contact), then he could have switched targets. As for the Ork IC, the only way he's getting a choice is if he's in base contact with both the Tactical squad and the SM IC. Confusing stuff eh? :)

[Frosty the Pyro]

Remember MODELS are engaged with UNITS. Each models engagement is handeled seperately

 

A model is first engaged with any unit the model is in base to base with (being in base to base with a unit means being in BtB with at least one model from said unit)

 

If it is not in BtB it may then be considered engaged with any unit a freindly that is from its own unit and within 2" of the model in question is engaged with via BtB requirements above. (aka you can only claim the 2" rule if the model itself is not in BtB)

 

IC's are considered a completely seperate unit from any unit they are attached to for the purposes of determining engagements.

 

Engagement status is determined before any attacks are resolved (but after all assault moves (charges) and pile ins and the such) and does not change for the rest of that assault phase, even if models are removed.