Codex: Renegade Space Marines

[Son of Rawl]

Right, I havnt seen a topic for this yet but if there is then my bad, but what are peoples opinions of the supposed white dwarf issue to replace the current chaos codex.

[Jacinda]

I may be mistaken, but isn't this going to be somewhat like the old "chapter approved" sections? In other words, additional short supplements to the main codex. This could be a good thing.

 

Otherwise I would be afraid Chaos would get the Sisters of Battle treatment.

[Kristoff]

I may be mistaken, but isn't this going to be somewhat like the old "chapter approved" sections? In other words, additional short supplements to the main codex. This could be a good thing.

 

Or a more recent reference, the Fantasy Vampire Counts in the same White Dwarf as:

 

Otherwise I would be afraid Chaos would get the Sisters of Battle treatment.

 

Them.

 

Don't forget, Blood Angels got the same treatment about a year and a half before the next edition (and a bit more for the full book codex). They don't seem to have suffered a whole lot.

 

But another reason people may not have mentioned it much is because a Codex: Chaos Legions is supposed to be coming out about the same time, at least according to the same rumor, which will then cause the WD version to be almost completely ignored by everyone except for non-band-wagon jumping gits like yours truly (well, maybe, I'll have to see which fits my force better).

 

Edit: Because White Dwarf are not codecies.

[Warsmith Aznable]

what are peoples opinions of the supposed white dwarf issue to replace the current chaos codex.

 

I wait with equal amounts of fear and hope, though most of the time I try to ignore the future and work on getting my 4th edition army completely collected and painted. I didn't just create a couple of lists with them and then buy the models for that. Oh no. What I did was design, purchase, and construct an entire company of Chaos Space Marines, and I build lists based on that company. I worry that the next edition's codex will come along and force significant changes to that company. More models and ability options would be cool, but a return to the old Legion style limitations would be frustrating.

 

This rumor of "Chaos Renegades" and "Chaos Legions" being in two separate places throws me a curve ball, because why they would do that is sort of beyond me. What could they put in a Renegades book that wouldn't do well as a section in the regular codex? Would it be a White Dwarf version of The Lost and the Damned? That's the only thing that really makes sense to me. A sort of wacky "anything goes" Chaos list, while the Chaos Legions would be what the 4th edition codex should have been. That would be the optimal situation, I think.

 

This other part of me, the cynic in me, thinks maybe it's nothing really to do with the needs of the game, but maybe just a ploy to boost White Dwarf sales. Sisters undoubtedly needed a stopgap magazine codex to straighten them out as Ecclesiarchy only, even if all they did was strip out the Inquisition entries. The Sisters of Battle full codex should be, in my opinion, where the new units and models are introduced. I didn't have high expectations for any of that in the magazine codex, but I will be seriously disappointed if nothing new makes it into the full codex and the fluff isn't reworked to make them more than bit players on the galactic stage.

 

That said, I'm not sure where Chaos Marines fit into that sort of scheme, other than as a reason to get $7.50 from someone like me who wouldn't normally purchase the magazine.

[Kristoff]

This rumor of "Chaos Renegades" and "Chaos Legions" being in two separate places throws me a curve ball, because why they would do that is sort of beyond me. What could they put in a Renegades book that wouldn't do well as a section in the regular codex? Would it be a White Dwarf version of The Lost and the Damned? That's the only thing that really makes sense to me. A sort of wacky "anything goes" Chaos list, while the Chaos Legions would be what the 4th edition codex should have been. That would be the optimal situation, I think.

 

Part of the rumor of 6th Edition was that it was less focused on the Imperium vs the Galaxy and Itself, and more towards Chaos/Destruction vs non-Chaos, similar to how Fantasy is divided between Order, Destruction, and Neutral.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I hope that they never put 40k along such lines, as otherwise we'd have almost no armies on the Chaos/Evil side. Let's see... Dark Eldar? They hate Chaos. Necrons? Hate it. Tyranids? Hate it. All other Xenos? Hate it.

 

So yeah, unless they want to split the forces into Chaos Marines and Daemons on one side, and everyone else on the other... I just don't see it working.

[Kristoff]

True, again, it's just a rumor, so it's probably not true, but we should still tell everyone we know.

 

Actually had one guy at my LGS treating them as fact! Never mind that it was a rumor, that there was no release date mentioned, and more than a few other irregularities about them.

[Jacinda]

This rumor of "Chaos Renegades" and "Chaos Legions" being in two separate places throws me a curve ball, because why they would do that is sort of beyond me.

Wild speculation here and this is just thrown out as an example but ...

Chaos Legions are the old and seasoned veterans with 1000 years of not only combat but also time to gather favor from the Chaos Lords. This is your GK equivalent list -- complete with new, "must have" models.

 

Chaos Renegades are newer and more concerned with escaping the Emperor's yoke than furthering the will of some warp god. Not only will they have traditional SM in power armor but they will also include scouts, cultist and all the new weapons of the post Heresy universe like skimmers and flyers -- which you will need to buy to field a solid army of Renegades.

 

Here again, I really have heard little and know less but I was under the impression that Codex:CSM would be the core and each Legion would be a mini-dex. Options and benefits for an all Khorne army, for example, or HQ choices for Slaanesh only armies.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Part of the rumor of 6th Edition was that it was less focused on the Imperium vs the Galaxy and Itself, and more towards Chaos/Destruction vs non-Chaos, similar to how Fantasy is divided between Order, Destruction, and Neutral.

 

I was looking through the "Other Games" section yesterday and reading through the thread on the 40k MMO, and that got me to thinking about this quote from you, because it could fall in line with the faction separations for the game. Maybe there is some kind of long range plan to introduce Dark Millennium Online and the 6th Edition sort of hand in hand? Put out the new rules in 2012 and get the old hands used to the changes, then hit the PC audience with the MMO the following year and use it to draw in new players for the table top game (in time for Christmas 2013 sales).

[Kristoff]

Part of the rumor of 6th Edition was that it was less focused on the Imperium vs the Galaxy and Itself, and more towards Chaos/Destruction vs non-Chaos, similar to how Fantasy is divided between Order, Destruction, and Neutral.

 

I was looking through the "Other Games" section yesterday and reading through the thread on the 40k MMO, and that got me to thinking about this quote from you, because it could fall in line with the faction separations for the game. Maybe there is some kind of long range plan to introduce Dark Millennium Online and the 6th Edition sort of hand in hand? Put out the new rules in 2012 and get the old hands used to the changes, then hit the PC audience with the MMO the following year and use it to draw in new players for the table top game (in time for Christmas 2013 sales).

 

I wouldn't put it past them. But it would fail because their sense of timing really sucks.

[techsoldaten]

You did not hear this from me... but there are a number of people leaving GW who have been vocal about what is upcoming with the 6th edition release.

 

Repeating rumors from Blood of Kittens and BOLS. Supposedly, the White Dwarf suppliment is erratta meant to bring Codex CSM in line with Codex Chaos Legions. It will not be a replacement, but will add rules that can be used in 5th and 6th edition. Codex Chaos Legions will be the first codex released under the 6th edition rulebook and will be compatible with the existing CCSM.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'm not saying your wrong, but what's your source? The Internet is a land of strange things, half of which are true, half of which are false, and half of which are crazy but become true.

[Jacinda]

The Internet is a land of strange things, half of which are true,{snip}

Wow. You really are an optimist. :)

[Brother Ambroz]

You did not hear this from me... but there are a number of people leaving GW who have been vocal about what is upcoming with the 6th edition release.

 

Repeating rumors from Blood of Kittens and BOLS. Supposedly, the White Dwarf suppliment is erratta meant to bring Codex CSM in line with Codex Chaos Legions. It will not be a replacement, but will add rules that can be used in 5th and 6th edition. Codex Chaos Legions will be the first codex released under the 6th edition rulebook and will be compatible with the existing CCSM.

 

I really hope this isn't true. Being the first codex in a new edition is never a good thing it seems.

[major higgins]

Well, Chaos legion will be the original source of other renegades and could be, in practical, the origin of berserker, Plague marine ecc.

 

If it will be released and put some order in the "chaos" (sorry for the double meaning), it could be only good. Is not necessary a lot of thing to make a better codex from this one...

 

I'm thinking on free champion for the sacred number... I'm thinking of Feel no pain, or Furious Charge ecc for the lords

 

I'm thinking in some restriction in the main list... for example no Oblyterators for the god's legions, but some personalization too for the legions as bike for troop for the Nightlords, or Plague Havocs, or Plague terminators, with feel no pain and fearless and so on...

[techsoldaten]

I really hope this isn't true. Being the first codex in a new edition is never a good thing it seems.

I would agree with that except I don't believe this really is the first Codex written for 6th edition. The Blood Angels codex appears to be written for the 6th edition, it features the new flat out rule and a bunch of other things that foreshadow what is to come.

 

If anything, the new CCR is going to bring Chaos up to date with the advances other armies have enjoyed with regards to vehicles, psychic attacks, OP elites and the like. Haven't you noticed how truly overpowered the armies in the new codexes have become in comparison to Chaos? Since CCSM was relased, there's been a gradual escalation in the power associated with every subsequent army. You get more options for fewer points, and the total number of models you can field under other armies seems to be increasing.

 

I look forward to seeing what comes out. Everything I have heard about 6th edition makes sense (especially movement rules) and can't believe they would ignore the obvious imbalance that exists at this point.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I don't know. They've been starting to balance out the codices, especially with Grey Knights and Dark Eldar. I think they've realised that the game is much better when the newest codices aren't instantly and immediately overpowered.

[SyNidus]

Just had a crazy thought...Perhaps what GW will do to distinguish renegades from legions is this:

 

Renegades will have more freedom to mix and match(example: Rubric marines with plague marines), access to newer equipment like landspeeders, special ammo, etc...

 

while Legions will be more constricted(one army, one god except for word bearers), but with access to more specialized rules for each legion.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Just had a crazy thought...Perhaps what GW will do to distinguish renegades from legions is this:

 

Renegades will have more freedom to mix and match(example: Rubric marines with plague marines), access to newer equipment like landspeeders, special ammo, etc...

 

while Legions will be more constricted(one army, one god except for word bearers), but with access to more specialized rules for each legion.

 

I had a smiliar thought but was more looking at the factor of more daemon engines (dream come true) for legions. I can see restrictions for numbers on the "newer" Renegades to represent the lack of official restock from the Mechanicum.

 

On the front of the passing towards "good, evil and neutral" as WFB is, I can see the idea and it maybe needs explaining for non-square basers. There would be those who are just in the galaxy for the good of the Imperium and the Emperor and it's closest allies (IG, SM, =I= etc), those that are dead against it (CSM, Daemons, Tyranids etc) and those that could be deemed neutral, not wanting to see either side win (Tau, Eldar maybe??). There would very much be a formation of "eviil" and there would definately be a large contingient needed of Chaos within this, as it's turned half the SM legions against their brothers. This would probably bring a bigger focus on to the armies of Chaos, and will give us a greater presence in the game and in stores, as well as giving us much greater variation in army selections.

 

I welcome it if this is the case.

[Blood4thebloodgod]

As an Undivided Player I enjoy fielding mixed legions and Gods. The majority of my army is Iron Warriors and Black Legion, but I like to field a unit of each marked troops. Khorne Bezerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons… I just hope that you can still field all of these together without getting too boned. I’m sure there will be more benefits from playing a single themed army focusing on one God in particular. That’s cool as long as its not a must. I always pictured Chaos as ragtag war bands formed with just whoever was around and able to fight, as most of the leadership died during the Horus Heresy. Well here are my wants real quick for the new dex…

 

1. Termies that are a viable option (this could also be said about dreads and raptors, I just want them to be on par with the C:SM)

2. Drop Pods (Iron Warriors use them extensively, we know that chaos has them they just don’t have a model for them….why?)

3. More customization and variety for vehicles like the loyalists. (Bring back marks on vehicles maybe?)

4. Gimme my flier! (Summer of flyers right? So everyone’s getting a flyer? Maybe we will. I want one and you better believe I’m gonna have a group of Red Corsairs piloting it :) .

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

As an Undivided Player I enjoy fielding mixed legions and Gods. The majority of my army is Iron Warriors and Black Legion, but I like to field a unit of each marked troops. Khorne Bezerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons… I just hope that you can still field all of these together without getting too boned. I’m sure there will be more benefits from playing a single themed army focusing on one God in particular. That’s cool as long as its not a must. I always pictured Chaos as ragtag war bands formed with just whoever was around and able to fight, as most of the leadership died during the Horus Heresy. Well here are my wants real quick for the new dex…

 

1. Termies that are a viable option (this could also be said about dreads and raptors, I just want them to be on par with the C:SM)

2. Drop Pods (Iron Warriors use them extensively, we know that chaos has them they just don’t have a model for them….why?)

3. More customization and variety for vehicles like the loyalists. (Bring back marks on vehicles maybe?)

4. Gimme my flier! (Summer of flyers right? So everyone’s getting a flyer? Maybe we will. I want one and you better believe I’m gonna have a group of Red Corsairs piloting it :D .

 

This covers a lot of points, I agree that it should be warbands based, and I don't think Legions should be a splitting of having 9 codecies in 1 book, but just making things a little more viable as having a theme/leading chapter for your army based upon your core choices (ie more HS choices for having an IW Lord/warsmith). Give your army a theme, a main flavour for which everything else complements (or doesn't, depending upon your choices...).

 

I think the problems stem from the lack of flavour from the current 'dex. It doesn't do renegades or legions very well and the only thing it does well is give you "warbands"... very very bland, very samey warbands. It needs seasoning, it needs some spice and some fizz. Something to make it stand alone, sometihng that shows how the CSMs are a stand alone choice from loyalists, but that each warband should have its own flavour, while being competitive. You could almost liken this to how GKs are not comparable to SMs... very different fish, but still from the same core stock.

 

Apologies for the food references, i'm cooking dinner today.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just had a crazy thought...Perhaps what GW will do to distinguish renegades from legions is this:

 

Renegades will have more freedom to mix and match(example: Rubric marines with plague marines), access to newer equipment like landspeeders, special ammo, etc...

 

while Legions will be more constricted(one army, one god except for word bearers), but with access to more specialized rules for each legion.

 

I had a smiliar thought but was more looking at the factor of more daemon engines (dream come true) for legions. I can see restrictions for numbers on the "newer" Renegades to represent the lack of official restock from the Mechanicum.

 

On the front of the passing towards "good, evil and neutral" as WFB is, I can see the idea and it maybe needs explaining for non-square basers. There would be those who are just in the galaxy for the good of the Imperium and the Emperor and it's closest allies (IG, SM, =I= etc), those that are dead against it (CSM, Daemons, Tyranids etc) and those that could be deemed neutral, not wanting to see either side win (Tau, Eldar maybe??). There would very much be a formation of "eviil" and there would definately be a large contingient needed of Chaos within this, as it's turned half the SM legions against their brothers. This would probably bring a bigger focus on to the armies of Chaos, and will give us a greater presence in the game and in stores, as well as giving us much greater variation in army selections.

 

I welcome it if this is the case.

 

So, every Xenos race will be relegated to "neutral" (going by the original rumour of the game being divided into Chaos/Non-Chaos)? If we really have to include 'sides', then make it Destruction vs Order, like Fantasy. Chaos vs Imperium sidelines too many books, and pits two codices against many. There are other ways of bringing the Chaos/Imperium fight back into the spotlight without making the other races feel like bystanders.

[Blood4thebloodgod]

This covers a lot of points, I agree that it should be warbands based, and I don't think Legions should be a splitting of having 9 codecies in 1 book, but just making things a little more viable as having a theme/leading chapter for your army based upon your core choices (ie more HS choices for having an IW Lord/warsmith). Give your army a theme, a main flavour for which everything else complements (or doesn't, depending upon your choices...).

 

I think the problems stem from the lack of flavour from the current 'dex. It doesn't do renegades or legions very well and the only thing it does well is give you "warbands"... very very bland, very samey warbands. It needs seasoning, it needs some spice and some fizz. Something to make it stand alone, sometihng that shows how the CSMs are a stand alone choice from loyalists, but that each warband should have its own flavour, while being competitive. You could almost liken this to how GKs are not comparable to SMs... very different fish, but still from the same core stock.

 

Apologies for the food references, i'm cooking dinner today.

 

I agree with you here. I like all the current individual HQs but I want more from them. When you play the loyalist HQs they all seem to bring a unique benefit to the unit they are attached to or the whole army. Why wouldn't Ahriman leading a group of 1k give them some sort of aided ability. I think it would be cool for him to be able to channel his magic attacks through them :pirate:. Also, the daemons arent really adding much to the dex... i dont ever see anyone field them. its sad because they have some really cool models. i guess we just have to cross our fingers and hope we get some lovin' like BA and DE

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

We are playing the same tune here... I've always wanted that from our HQ's, I've always wondered why they didn't bring something else to the party given that they have been running around with warbands all these years. Should CSMs be able to be immune from psychology if Abby is leading the army? Or would he not allow every Cult troop choice be troops, rather than Elites as they used to be? Would Kharne's immunity to psychic attacks not spread wider than just him? I'd love to see the other 4 traitor legions have speicalist HQ choices, even if it was a leiutenant/hero type that would have an effect on a unit or a tank (like Chronus). I think then we start to have a really full choice and flavour of Chaos (there i go again with the cookery).

[Azarias]

Does anyone know when this magic White Dwarf is to be released? I don't make a habit of stopping in Games Workshops, or of reading WD, and so I don't want to miss this.