Codex: Renegade Space Marines

[Trevak Dal]

Does anyone know when this magic White Dwarf is to be released? I don't make a habit of stopping in Games Workshops, or of reading WD, and so I don't want to miss this.

 

It's all theory and conjecture. Hope and Wishlisting if you will.

[Prot]

A new set of rules updating current Chaos through White Dwarf and PDF are what I've heard as well.

 

I was also told it's months off... more like early 2012. As mentioned, part of the goal is to keep it coherent for 6th ed which is sounding pretty wonky, and also keep it on 'par' with the Legion codex.

 

So if this is true, and we are going to see an infusion of life into the dead beast known as Chaos, I would ask or wishlist for things specific to chapters that have gone to Chaos. Guys like Huron, and chaos Lords in general. No wishlisting on Legions specifically for the obvious reason that they are getting their own codex.

 

Special Characters:

There has to be more 'generic-specific' characters that are better representing current Chaos Chapters.

Huron needs a MASSIVE update and potentially (depending on the changes) a point reduction:

HURON:

- Charismatic Recruiter of the Dark Powers: Huron allows the use of one item, like a squad, or vehicle (non special character) from Codex Space Marines.

- A higher calling: Any unit Huron joins counts as scoring.

- Gauntlet: Huron's flame hand is empowered by Chaos. Counts as a +2 Poison, AP3 flamer or a single melta gun shot. The Gauntlet (counts as lightning claw) allows Huron to make D3 bonus attacks. To wound Rolls of '6' are counted as rending and allow an additional attack. (Think BA Blood Talon dreadnought).

- The Hamidraya: Still allows Warp Time, but I'd probably tweak Warp Time.

 

Unit choices:

Completely redo the Generic Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorcerer. These units are waaaay behind the times.

- Raptors. These could be viewed as a roaming death squad (kind of as they should be.) I see them more in the roll of what Legion of the Damned fullfill for Space Marines. Right now, they aren't even close.

 

- Limit Daemon Princes to one per army.

 

- Upgrade Daemons. I'd go back to 3rd edition, keeping points realistic. All deamons should not be equal.

 

- Greater Daemons... redo entirely. Summoning... needs tweaking as well.

 

- Obliterators. This will be a hot topic, but I'd go back to a more powerful version, BUT restrict availability again.

 

- Chosen. These guys really should be special. They should be closer to Space Marine Vanguard but more close combat oriented, less 'shooty' options perhaps.

 

- Drop Pods. 'nough said.

 

- Troops: Generic Chaos Marines need some help. Icons should be gone entirely, in favour of minor 'gifts' or 'marks'. Banners could/should work like Space Wolf banners.... a squad wide effect that is strong, and encourages -large squad sizes- to maximize banner effect. (IE: Feel no Pain in CC.... or whatever).

 

- Possessed: Less crappy, less expensive. I liked these models, and they were a wasted effort due to terrible rules. The 'downside' of powers stopped being a design mantra for GW in 5th so either these guys get good powers for their points cost -or- make the random element less... craptastic.

 

- New unit: Mini-Defiler: Less oriented towards a large blast, and more a medium transport /squad destroyer. I'd love to see something that actually punishes opponents for taking mech armies... it's way over done.

 

- Spawn units: Complete Redux.

 

- Havoks: The don't have to be Long Fangs, but how about making them simply competitive?

 

- New Unit: Cultists. Followers of Chaos in the form of basic PDF guardsman with a 'flank' option (think of the IG Penal Legion as a great example). A random roll for the unit's 'speciality'. Also capable of summoning at a cost.

 

Wargear:

Back to basics: Bring back a basic Mark system that allows the army to enjoy the advantage of alignment, while removing the advantage of being 'undivided'. Undivided should -mean something- again.

 

HQ Wargear. I know it's a bit of a mine field but I'd revisit the introduction of a lot of 'gifts' of chaos with a point cap again, forcing you to take a Daemon Prince (literally) IF you go over a point value of gifts IE: 100 gift points is the maximum before converting your Lord into a D.P.

Vehicle Wargear. Bring back dedication type powers: Or at least 'possession' of vehicles.

Psychic Powers. Lash was over done, and now it's 'ok' but I'd like to see a lot more creative stuff here. I'd look at adding 3-4 new powers.

 

And that's about it... call 'er done. I'd buy it tomorrow and break out Huron and the Funky bunch again!

 

Whatever they do, it has to be -real- and compete or else people will just poo-poo it and hold off for 'Legions'.

[Trevak Dal]

I'd like it to happen some time soon-the Space Wolves around me are starting to trade out their fur for gleaming silver plate in greater numbers...I know that unless this 'update' has anything of merit in it, I'll most certainly be going to a Chaos Legion book.

 

As it is, GW is on the clock. If there isn't concrete confirmation by January about a Chaos Space Marine WD update or the alledged codex, I'm going full on to blood angels. Its an established book, great units with favorable Special rules quick and easily available.

 

I don't want to play my Nightblades as Loyalists of any stripe...but I'm not going to sit around and have happen to me what happened to Alpha Legion, Iron Warrior and Word Bearer players last time round, nor am I going to keep taking Psychic power to the face and soldier through. I'll have my furious charge AND feel no pain AND fun to use Raptors and dreadnought rules that will make me want to buy a dreadnought model. And of course, drop pods I can officially use.

[Brother Ambroz]

A new set of rules updating current Chaos through White Dwarf and PDF are what I've heard as well.

 

I was also told it's months off... more like early 2012. As mentioned, part of the goal is to keep it coherent for 6th ed which is sounding pretty wonky, and also keep it on 'par' with the Legion codex.

 

So if this is true, and we are going to see an infusion of life into the dead beast known as Chaos, I would ask or wishlist for things specific to chapters that have gone to Chaos. Guys like Huron, and chaos Lords in general. No wishlisting on Legions specifically for the obvious reason that they are getting their own codex.

 

Special Characters:

There has to be more 'generic-specific' characters that are better representing current Chaos Chapters.

Huron needs a MASSIVE update and potentially (depending on the changes) a point reduction:

HURON:

- Charismatic Recruiter of the Dark Powers: Huron allows the use of one item, like a squad, or vehicle (non special character) from Codex Space Marines.

- A higher calling: Any unit Huron joins counts as scoring.

- Gauntlet: Huron's flame hand is empowered by Chaos. Counts as a +2 Poison, AP3 flamer or a single melta gun shot. The Gauntlet (counts as lightning claw) allows Huron to make D3 bonus attacks. To wound Rolls of '6' are counted as rending and allow an additional attack. (Think BA Blood Talon dreadnought).

- The Hamidraya: Still allows Warp Time, but I'd probably tweak Warp Time.

 

Unit choices:

Completely redo the Generic Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorcerer. These units are waaaay behind the times.

- Raptors. These could be viewed as a roaming death squad (kind of as they should be.) I see them more in the roll of what Legion of the Damned fullfill for Space Marines. Right now, they aren't even close.

 

- Limit Daemon Princes to one per army.

 

- Upgrade Daemons. I'd go back to 3rd edition, keeping points realistic. All deamons should not be equal.

 

- Greater Daemons... redo entirely. Summoning... needs tweaking as well.

 

- Obliterators. This will be a hot topic, but I'd go back to a more powerful version, BUT restrict availability again.

 

- Chosen. These guys really should be special. They should be closer to Space Marine Vanguard but more close combat oriented, less 'shooty' options perhaps.

 

- Drop Pods. 'nough said.

 

- Troops: Generic Chaos Marines need some help. Icons should be gone entirely, in favour of minor 'gifts' or 'marks'. Banners could/should work like Space Wolf banners.... a squad wide effect that is strong, and encourages -large squad sizes- to maximize banner effect. (IE: Feel no Pain in CC.... or whatever).

 

- Possessed: Less crappy, less expensive. I liked these models, and they were a wasted effort due to terrible rules. The 'downside' of powers stopped being a design mantra for GW in 5th so either these guys get good powers for their points cost -or- make the random element less... craptastic.

 

- New unit: Mini-Defiler: Less oriented towards a large blast, and more a medium transport /squad destroyer. I'd love to see something that actually punishes opponents for taking mech armies... it's way over done.

 

- Spawn units: Complete Redux.

 

- Havoks: The don't have to be Long Fangs, but how about making them simply competitive?

 

- New Unit: Cultists. Followers of Chaos in the form of basic PDF guardsman with a 'flank' option (think of the IG Penal Legion as a great example). A random roll for the unit's 'speciality'. Also capable of summoning at a cost.

 

Wargear:

Back to basics: Bring back a basic Mark system that allows the army to enjoy the advantage of alignment, while removing the advantage of being 'undivided'. Undivided should -mean something- again.

 

HQ Wargear. I know it's a bit of a mine field but I'd revisit the introduction of a lot of 'gifts' of chaos with a point cap again, forcing you to take a Daemon Prince (literally) IF you go over a point value of gifts IE: 100 gift points is the maximum before converting your Lord into a D.P.

Vehicle Wargear. Bring back dedication type powers: Or at least 'possession' of vehicles.

Psychic Powers. Lash was over done, and now it's 'ok' but I'd like to see a lot more creative stuff here. I'd look at adding 3-4 new powers.

 

And that's about it... call 'er done. I'd buy it tomorrow and break out Huron and the Funky bunch again!

 

Whatever they do, it has to be -real- and compete or else people will just poo-poo it and hold off for 'Legions'.

 

I agree with all of this and then also add in dreads and termies. I mean loyalists use dreads all the time and we could do some amazing conversions with dreadnoughts but for me anyway there's just no willpower to do it because of how crappy the rules are. Same for my termies, they've been sitting around primed black but again just no willpower to paint a squad that's just going to DS in and die.

[Brother Ambroz]

Darn double posts. Delete if someone can :)

[Excessus]

warptime doesn't need tweaking, it's insanely powerful as it is! ^_^

[Saa]

warptime doesn't need tweaking, it's insanely powerful as it is! :P

 

Disclaimer; Tweaks can go down as well as up. The Gods of chaos accept no responsibility for your loss

[Excessus]

warptime doesn't need tweaking, it's insanely powerful as it is! :P

 

Disclaimer; Tweaks can go down as well as up. The Gods of chaos accept no responsibility for your loss

While that is true, I'll just quote Luke Skywalker and say: "NooooooOOOOooOooOooooooooooOOOOO!!!!!!!!11"

 

Don't you dare touch my warptime GW... :P

[Panda_]

warptime doesn't need tweaking, it's insanely powerful as it is! :)

It does !

Rerolls to hit, to wound _and_ to save ... for the whole unit !

[Prot]

Ah yes, I forgot about Termies, but moreso... Dreadnoughts. Ugh.

 

Anyway, sorry about Warp Time... to think of it, although I don't use it a lot, I suppose it's fine. It's no 'Jaws' or 'blood lance' but it's good stuff.

 

But yea, with those changes, I think I'd be content to pull out my Red Corsairs again. I highly doubt Renegades Chaos will get NEAR the attention I suggest though.... :)

[darth_giles]

Part of the rumor of 6th Edition was that it was less focused on the Imperium vs the Galaxy and Itself, and more towards Chaos/Destruction vs non-Chaos, similar to how Fantasy is divided between Order, Destruction, and Neutral.

Sounds like how the Eye of Terror campaign ran, with Forces of Order, Forces of Disorder, and the Tau. I don't see much wrong with that. It worked well, even if the results of the campaign were mis-handled.

[Prot]

The EoT campaign is possibly my favourite period of ever playing 40K.

 

I remember I had the Iron Warrior email list (yes we used email lists) back then to pick targets... so much fun.

 

I really hope that white dwarf does indeed 'rescue' chaos. But the more I read my own shortlist.... it's just looking very improbable. I guess we can use what they do with Sisters of Battle as gauge for what we might see.

 

I would personally keep renegade chapters relevant even with Legions.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

The renegades have always been just as important as the Legions, as they present the inner threat, travelling and attacking inside the Imperiums defences. Compared to the legions, which have more......everything, but have to fight a gauntlet of steel just to raid the Imperium.

And of course, theirs Huron, who really shouln't be the poster boy, i agree, but could be presented as the 'new kid' on the block, bringing flair and new energy into the Chaos forces, while heading up against Abaddon. Maybe Huron controlling the majority of Renegades, and even a few Legion warbands, while Abby is more old school, and possesses more of a secure ground and greater numbers.

What does this remind me of? :)

 

Sadly, GW will never hear of this, past a few whisperings, but its a good idea, what do you think. It would make interesting background, and could be expanded if they do make a Codex: Renegades (which i doubt. The most they would do is make a crapload of army choices, and a huge background section in a monster hardback. Which though expensive, would be awesome)

[Excessus]

If they made a "Codex: Chaos" hardback tome with daemon lists, renegade lists and legion lists in it, I would soooo buy it, even if it was like 80€ or something...

 

Think of how much information they wouldn't have to duplicate in it about the background and the gods/daemons and the eye of terror that they have to basically write in two places atm!

[Son of Rawl]

I'm currently wondering about what wargear will be available to Renegades in a WD update. What always annoyed and confused me was that you have a chapter that has just turned renegade and all of a sudden they decide to lose

 

- Whirlwinds

- Land Raider Varients

- Know no Fear

- Assualt Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers

- Chaplains

- Veterans

- land Speeders

- Apothecaries

- Techmarines

- Drop Pods

 

And a whole load of wargear choices, is there like a initiation into becoming a chaos warband where you have to destroy/sacrifice everything in order to be called a Traitor or what

[Prot]

I've thought of that too... That's why in my 'new' Huron rules I included that little blurb on being a 'Charismatic Recruiter of the Dark Gods'. So he could access some of that stuff.

 

On the other hand I think depending on how long a chapter has been Chaos, it would really dictate the access to newer stuff.

 

So you could say conversely that an old, ooooold school legion should have access to something potentially created by the Construct Template device from the old age of technology, combined with Chaos. This new unit probably would not be accessible by a 'newer' (newer meaning less than 10k old ) chapter.

 

The idea of being a traitor I think starts long before walking around with a star on your buttock armour. I think there's lots of fluff to show -varying- degrees of being and looking the part of Chaos. IE: Iron Warriors are as nasty as they get, and you're not going to see them walking around looking nearly as defiled as perhaps a 'new' chaos renegade chapter.

[Dammeron]

One thing I really don't want to see in the new codex is Renegade armies being given short shrift; there is more than enough space in the codicies currently being released for the core army list to accomodate them, or for options to exist that allow the customisations of the army list via the inclusion of particular H.Q.s etc.

 

The emphasis on Renegades in the current codex is, IMO, one of the few things it got right; it's just sad that it came at the price of diluting or misrepresenting the more traditional legions. The "Renegade" idea allows for players to let their imaginations go wild, to write up their own detailed histories and characters, which is something I can only applaud. The notion of a "get you by" Whitew Dwarf list that'll inevitably fall into obscurity, have massive problems with "legality" in tournament situations etc is a mistake; just make the core army list considered enough to include them. It isn't difficult; any number of fan codicies and suggestions have demonstrated very simple ways in which it can be achieved. If they can't manage that, then an appendix army list in the "legions" codex would be fine, as would one representing daemon armies (it's very clear from the lamentably myopic and under nourished "Codex: Chaos Daemons" that such an army list works better as an appendix or adjunct anyway).

 

Personally, I love the idea of GW releasing an all singing, all dancing uber-codex a la the old Realms of Chaos books, with enough information to create armies of Traitor Legions, Renegades, Chaos Cults and Daemon armies, or a concoction of all of them. I'd happily pay through the nose for that, and would likely embark on my multiple different chaos armies again as I did under the old 3.5 and Eye of Terror army lists.