Marshal Rohr Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I don't know dude. The Crimson Fist novella has made me rethink alot of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3133378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 In The Lion the Death Guard have a unit called 'The Grave Wardens' Whether that is a bodyguard unit or not i'm not sure, but it does seem to be Typhon's personal unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3133536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaze07 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Does any body have a list of Chapter master's and some info on them eg. Blood Angels - Raldoron?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3133575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfkry Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 @1000heathens, i get what you mean dood, yes the tetrachs are most assuredly the elite of the elite. Like KNow no fear when ( i forget his name the other tetrach not nico) goes about kicking major traitor booty. But though they might be champions they are more of a type of governing body to me functioning similar to the mournival. Wheres units like the Justaerin or the Atramentar are along the lines of an elite company. The elite company is more of what im looking for, though the names of elite groups such as the tetrachs would be cool too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3133890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 @M2C: Really now? Could you elaborate? @Cyrox: Very true, they are Typhon's own. I feel, though, that the Deathshroud eclipse them in skill, thus I'm gonna keep the shroud in place. @Wulfkry: I hear you man, but at least until we get a name of a unique super-ultra unit, the tetrarch's are gonna be it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3133982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 @Cyrox: Very true, they are Typhon's own. I feel, though, that the Deathshroud eclipse them in skill, thus I'm gonna keep the shroud in place. @Wulfkry: I hear you man, but at least until we get a name of a unique super-ultra unit, the tetrarch's are gonna be it. I agree with your thoughts on keeping the Deathshroud, as I'm sure many of the Legion's Captains and officers have their own named bodyguards. I don't know if I can get behind the Tetrarch's though. They aren't an elite unit. They are elite, but not a unit. This list seems to me to encompase bodyguards over councils of high ranking officers. Reading Know No Fear, it seems as though there is no elite of the elite units in the Ultramarine Legion. Surely Guilliman would have brought them with him on his assault on the Word Bearer held space station wouldn't he? True, they could have not have been on the ship but on the Calth itself, but even that is a stretch as most other elite units stay near their Primarchs to a degree. So if there was an elite Ultramarines unit then they would have been on the ship with Guilliman and helped in his final assault. Just my thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3134110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Instead, he led anyone who would follow him, including tetrarch's, Chapter Masters, battle-brothers, captains, and whoever else he had on hand. I'd consider his assault on the WB's as an attack of desperation. I don't think the Ultramarines have any truly elite combat units, as Guilliman seems to be a wise individual who'd break down such formations to support others, so as to not have all his eggs in one basket. I also don't think Big G would stomach a bodyguard unit, perfering to fight alongside younger brothers so as to inspire them. The Tetrarch's, acting as Guilliman voice and strong right hand, are already noted as Champions within the Legion, and even are entrusted to go far and wide to carry his will. Each are warriors of strength and renown, and are about as close as we're gonna get to an elite Ultramarine 'formation'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3134126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfkry Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 It seems that most legions had their elite units, i dont think the ultramarines would be any different. Perhaps they would be more modest in their reknown. Im guessing later books will reveal further information. Groups of warrior will always have elite units. The big G could still have this unit of his most elite on attachment to any of his forces to inspire. I still wouldnt count the tetrachs as a formation per se well because there is only 4 of them. Forces like the atramentar and varangi, while individual leaders within would be able to assume leadership roles are more like the "if you see these guys and hear their name, buddy you are in for a universe of a** kickin" option. But as for the lack of information i would say that tetrach is a good place holder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3134215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I had a conversation with AD-B on Facebook regarding the Atrementar and it seems they're not necessarily Curze's bodyguard, or even an alternate name for the First Company. The Atramentar were Sevatar's Elite, those that followed him specifically (and some hangers on) and were a core within the 1st Company. Sahaal, for example, though very close to the Primarch and First Captain [ineffectively and briefly] after Sev's death, was not one of the Atramentar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3134419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 :tu: *sigh* Now I remember why I let this thread die..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3134440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think it is pretty obvious that Marius Gage and the 1st Chapter were Roboute's protectors and torchbearers. Whether he liked it or not. The Tetrarchs are proxies for Guilliman himself, much like the Emperor 'chose'/gengineered/witchcraftededed 20 sons to be his proxies. They run worlds, campaigns, control armies, resources, forge worlds, ship building facilities, logistical lines yadda yadda. They are above the normal Chain of Command, peers to Guilliman rather than a (insert title) Master in the Space Marines. Marius is deferential to them and he even gives Guilliman lip alot of the time :P I thought that novella was a bit of Wardian BadAssery @ M2C. It was pretty good though ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3136263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennisBall Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 What is the Crimson Fist Novella you're talking about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3140197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarassen Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Well, it's the closest we've got so far. Besides, an elite bodyguard of four (from a legion some 250,000 odd strong) sounds badass. ^_^ Yeah.. They are good ;P If you think about this and listen to "Dark King" when Konrad Curze is killing all of the Emeror´s Childrens Phoenix Guard ;P That if something gives you an idea of how powerful a primarch is. And Konrad is not the best of them... hehe :wacko: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3140209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galileo Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Sahaal, for example, though very close to the Primarch and First Captain [ineffectively and briefly] after Sev's death, was not one of the Atramentar. Too many books to read, I have somewhat missed Sev's death - where/how does it happen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3142201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Sahaal, for example, though very close to the Primarch and First Captain [ineffectively and briefly] after Sev's death, was not one of the Atramentar. Too many books to read, I have somewhat missed Sev's death - where/how does it happen? Hasn't happened yet but we know Sevatar pre-deceases Kurze as until Sevatar's death he was the obvious successor, after his death there was no one who could take over and the Legion splintered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3142459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I think it is pretty obvious that Marius Gage and the 1st Chapter were Roboute's protectors and torchbearers. Whether he liked it or not. The Tetrarchs are proxies for Guilliman himself, much like the Emperor 'chose'/gengineered/witchcraftededed 20 sons to be his proxies. They run worlds, campaigns, control armies, resources, forge worlds, ship building facilities, logistical lines yadda yadda. They are above the normal Chain of Command, peers to Guilliman rather than a (insert title) Master in the Space Marines. Marius is deferential to them and he even gives Guilliman lip alot of the time :lol: I thought that novella was a bit of Wardian BadAssery @ M2C. It was pretty good though ^.^ I'd concur with this about the Tetrarchs. They were more akin to the Mournival of the Luna Wolves or the Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children. While they were certainly some of the best around in order to reach that lofty rank, it's not the same as Marius Gage. The book seemed to have him as a second-in-command, and his force was the one that included the Terminators. I can't remember the names, but I remember that the Emperor's Children were a lot like this. There was the Lord Commander Eidolon, and there was First Captain something or the other. Eidolon was a proxy for the Primarch, but the First Captain's force was the elite of the elite. Though of course the Emperor's Children also had the Phoenix Guard, or whatever it was called. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3142482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 The Imperial Fists were the Huscarl Templars, Corax simply had an Honour Guard who got killed on Istvaan, led by Arendi. I believe Forrix (1st Captain of the Iron Warriors) led squads of Siege Bezerkers. Hope this helps ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3143402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 The Imperial Fists were the Huscarl Templars Got a source for that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3143598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In a couple of the BL Heresy novels/short stories/audios they refer to protection retinues/bodyguards of the Imperial Fists to be 'Huscarls'. I think Lightning Tower it is mentioned and in one of the novellas it is mentioned about Fists being demarked as 'huscarls of the Imperial Fists'. I also seem to recall this being a general term for all Imp. Fist retinues and 'Templar Huscarls' would be Huscarls drawn from Sigismunds 'Templar' First Company. The Black Sheep of the Family :) edit: something tells me I need to reread Watson's "Space Marine" again. I think I might remember an instance of huscarl being used there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3143764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I would just assume that the UMs had honor guards or maybe pretorians. As far as the BAs and SWs are concerned, their elites are still named the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3143772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In a couple of the BL Heresy novels/short stories/audios they refer to protection retinues/bodyguards of the Imperial Fists to be 'Huscarls'. I think Lightning Tower it is mentioned and in one of the novellas it is mentioned about Fists being demarked as 'huscarls of the Imperial Fists'. I also seem to recall this being a general term for all Imp. Fist retinues and 'Templar Huscarls' would be Huscarls drawn from Sigismunds 'Templar' First Company. The Black Sheep of the Family :D Ah, so no source, just that old chestnut. I'm going to guess (fairly safely) that you haven't read the original text version of The Lightning Tower and so are unaware that huscarl appears exclusively in its uncapitalised form, meaning its not a title. Every specialist formation that has been named has had it's name given appropriately, i.e. capitalised like a title should be. There is not a single example of huscarl being used as a title in reference to any IF (or other) formation in any Horus Heresy (or 40K) novel. I own pretty much everything released for the heresy series that has been released to date (at least in NZ) and I don't recall the use of the term 'Huscarls' (or even the uncapitalised 'huscarl', which actually appears in the novels) as a title for IF retinues/bodyguards. I recall the oblique reference to a Dorn being accompanied by a huscarl retinue, as in a retinue made up of huscarls (the general term for members of a lords household troops/bodyguard, rather than some special title unique to the IF), but nowhere have I seen huscarl used as a title (i.e. 'Huscarl' or 'Huscarls'). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3143796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
absolon Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 The Imperial Fists were the Huscarl Templars, Corax simply had an Honour Guard who got killed on Istvaan, led by Arendi. I believe Forrix (1st Captain of the Iron Warriors) led squads of Siege Bezerkers. Hope this helps :) Lighting Tower pretty clearly shows the Huscarls and Templars were seperate. Huscarls being the primarchs body guard while templars were the elite company [ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3144450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I read the text version of Lightning Tower, and I don't remember the huscarls being put in that sort of light. I had them more in mind of a group that personally served the primarch and were at his beck and call, but not as a bodyguard unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3144471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I read the text version of Lightning Tower, and I don't remember the huscarls being put in that sort of light. I had them more in mind of a group that personally served the primarch and were at his beck and call, but not as a bodyguard unit. So as huscarls or equerries... --------------- Edit- Lighting Tower pretty clearly shows the Huscarls and Templars were seperate. Huscarls being the primarchs body guard while templars were the elite company Have you actually read The Lightning Tower or are you basing what it "pretty clearly shows" on the audio release? Although to be honest, either way, I struggle to see where you're getting the impression that The Lightning Tower shows (or even hints) that the huscarls are Dorn's bodyguards. You'll note that I wrote 'huscarls' and not 'Huscarls', as nowhere in The Lightning Tower (or elsewhere) is huscarl capitalised to so much as suggest that its a title. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3144633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 *shrugs* Give you examples off the top of my head and you are unsatisfied. Sorry, this isnt a term paper and I dont got the time to 'research' my 40k background for ya :lol: Huscarl has been used specifically in a Imperial Fist term; you do not see it popping up for Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Angron's boys. This seems to fit with the ecclectic sometimes Germanic/Prussian, Russian, English and various other flavors that Imperial Fists seem to draw inspiration from. I am not stuck on the capitalization or the 'title' but the meaning of the word whether you want to use housecarl, huscarl, whatever, capitalize it and stamp it I dont care. They are all household troops/bodyguards/retinues in history and literature. As far as I am concerned, Imperial Fists bodyguard units are huscarls. You can call them the "My Little Pony Squad" or whatever suits your fancy since you seem to be unconvinced of any opinion but your own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235917-elite-of-the-elite/page/3/#findComment-3144650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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