Elite of the elite

[MadDoc]

*shrugs* Give you examples off the top of my head and you are unsatisfied. Sorry, this isnt a term paper and I dont got the time to 'research' my 40k background for ya :lol:

If you're not willing to provide proper evidence, you probably shouldn't be making proclamations declaring something as "fact". The term huscarl is never used in reference to any IF formation as a title, you claiming that the term 'Huscarls' is used as the title of Dorn's retinue/bodyguards in a couple of the Heresy novels, in spite of huscarl never appearing in a form that would indicate it as an actual title in any of vague sources you gave, does nothing to alter that (actual) fact.

 

Huscarl has been used specifically in a Imperial Fist term; you do not see it popping up for Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Angron's boys. This seems to fit with the ecclectic sometimes Germanic/Prussian, Russian, English and various other flavors that Imperial Fists seem to draw inspiration from. I am not stuck on the capitalization or the 'title' but the meaning of the word whether you want to use housecarl, huscarl, whatever, capitalize it and stamp it I dont care. They are all household troops/bodyguards/retinues in history and literature.

I know what the term means, my last post shows that, and I'm not arguing its meaning. What I'm taking issue with is people claiming it has been used as the title for Dorn's retinue/bodyguard when it hasn't. The best (and only real) indicator we have for the name of Dorn's elite is in The Dark King - the Phoenician's elite are guarding Kurze alongside Dorn's elite, the Phoenician's elite are (once again) named (The Phoenix Guard) and Dorn's are identified as Templars. No if ands or buts there, no pontificating, no conflating of opinion with fact, just straight repetition of fact.

 

As far as I am concerned, Imperial Fists bodyguard units are huscarls. You can call them the "My Little Pony Squad" or whatever suits your fancy since you seem to be unconvinced of any opinion but your own.

I think I can see where the problem lies - what you're doing is voicing an opinion, while what I was doing was questioning the validity of something someone else had wrongly presented as fact, I then went on to explain where the actual facts disagreed/conflicted with what that person had claimed.

 

You seem to be confusing the two.

[Retributis]

And we also know that the Templars were specifically the Imperial Fists' 1st Company under Sigismund, therefore they don't fit the aim of the thread.

 

So for the moment, I guess we leave the IF elites as "Unknown".

[MadDoc]

And we also know that the Templars were specifically the Imperial Fists' 1st Company under Sigismund, therefore they don't fit the aim of the thread.

 

So for the moment, I guess we leave the IF elites as "Unknown".

I'm curious how the Templars being the IF 1st Company under anybody excludes them from being their elite, being their 1st by definition makes them that. :)

 

Or are you telling us that the Morlocks aren't the Iron Hands elite because they're the Hands 1st Company, and nor are the Phoenix Guard the Emperor's Children elite, nor the Devourers the World Eaters elite, nor the Justaerin the Sons of Horus elite, nor the Sekhmet the Thousand Sons elite...

[Captain Semper]

Isn't hulscar a title equivalent to equarry or something? I.e. The title of the Primarch's confidant? Which in turn meant that it's a title of a single person in the Legion? Or am I mixed up (again)? I think actually there was a mention in the Dark King... :)

[Retributis]

And we also know that the Templars were specifically the Imperial Fists' 1st Company under Sigismund, therefore they don't fit the aim of the thread.

 

So for the moment, I guess we leave the IF elites as "Unknown".

I'm curious how the Templars being the IF 1st Company under anybody excludes them from being their elite, being their 1st by definition makes them that. :lol:

 

Or are you telling us that the Morlocks aren't the Iron Hands elite because they're the Hands 1st Company, and nor are the Phoenix Guard the Emperor's Children elite, nor the Devourers the World Eaters elite, nor the Justaerin the Sons of Horus elite, nor the Sekhmet the Thousand Sons elite...

 

Well it depends on whether you're talking about Bodyguards or First Companies.

 

The OP says "known bodyguard / elite units" which a First Company does not fit into. They are a whole company, not a unit or bodyguard.

 

If anything most of what we have listed now is wrong given that definition. If we were discussing "nicknames for the First Companies" that would be another thing.

[Captain Semper]

First Company (or any company for that matter) IS a unit by any definition you care to mention. One (easy to find) is here It also is the case that in most (all?) Space Marine Legions the First Company is an elite unit. So I beleive the first companies do fit the OP's topic.

[Conn Eremon]

First Company might not fit as the elite unit, though the elite units are a part of the First Company in general.

 

For instance, the Sons of Horus elites are the Justaerin, but the Justaerin are just a part of the First Company rather than the whole Company. Like how Loken's elite unit within his Company was the Locasta squad, considering how they were portrayed. The Justaerin were the elite unit of the First Company.

 

Likewise, the Morlocks of the Iron Hands aren't the entire First Company of the Iron Hands. The Iron Hands First Company are the Avernii Clan, of which the Morlocks are a part.

 

So while the Templars of the Imperial Fists are the named First Company of that Legion, it might not be the name of the elite unit within the Templars. But until it is named, or until it's proven that the Templar First Company is wholly elite rather than in part like other Legions, calling them 'Templars' is a fine placeholder.