Objective Holding with RAS

[Son of Rawl]

Hey all, toying around with a Blood Angel list and I'm curious as to how well does a RAS do when objective camping when there main strength is to charge and chop people to bits, was going to go a few squads of tacticals combat squaded to sit and hold but that isn't really Blood Angel like now is it.

[JamesI]

I never sit and hold objectives. RAS (or scoring San Guard if you use Dante) are designed to take objectives late, not try to hold them long term.

 

If you want a unit to sit on an objective, Tacticals or Sniper scouts are the better choice.

[Morollan]

I'm currently testing out some lists for a doubles tournament and my only Troops are RAS in Razors. I have yet to camp an objective with them but have taken a few away from my opponent.

[Taz]

Some people put their objectives forward in their deployment zone if they're fielding strictly RAS. This helps compensate for the fact that RAS can't hold things very well by bringing them closer to where their active on the field. I for one think it's a rather risky move as it's just asking for a last-minute contention by your opponent. I'd stick with the aforementioned tacticals and scouts.

[awfulawful]

I never sit and hold objectives.

 

To quote General George S. Patton:

"I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a :lol: thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's -_-. We are going to twist his :cuss and kick the living :cuss out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like :cuss through a tin horn!"

 

 

I think he would have made a good Blood Angel.

[sp4rky]

lol, is that a real quote from Patton? That's awesome.

 

I use a squad of Sniper Scouts for holding back-field objectives and if we're using more than 2 objectives I place my others as far forward as possible and as close to each other as I can so my RAS can hold them in a more "incidental" fashion.

[terminatorAM]

I never sit and hold objectives.

 

To quote General George S. Patton:

"I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a :) thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's :cuss. We are going to twist his :cuss and kick the living :cuss out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like :cuss through a tin horn!"

 

 

I think he would have made a good Blood Angel.

 

i love this quote, my high school wrestling coach used to play it to get us pumped up before a big match.

 

i usually take one tactical squad to hold the home objective and have everything else push forward, grabbing the last objectives gets tough when you stop moving with the RAS so its good to make sure they can always move and charge. The last game i played lasted 7 turns so it was hard to determine when they should stop moving and grab something, and against eldar the last turns are crucial with all the fast units on both sides. What do you guys do when you're unsure how many more turn the game will be?

[Enzephalon]

What do you guys do when ur unsure how many more turn the game will be?

Make a decision and live with it no matter how it turns out.

What else can you do? ^^

[JamesI]

i usually take one tactical squad to hold the home objective and have everything else push forward, grabbing the last objectives gets tough when you stop moving with the RAS so its good to make sure they can always move and charge. The last game i played lasted 7 turns so it was hard to determine when they should stop moving and grab something, and against eldar the last turns are crucial with all the fast units on both sides. What do you guys do when you're unsure how many more turn the game will be?

Please do not use chat speak (u,ur). It is against forum rules.

 

As for last turn, well, its a risk. You know there is a chance the game will end on turn 5, so you need to make sure you are winning then. Same for 6.

[Leonaides]

but that isn't really Blood Angel like now is it.

You appear to be sadly mistaken, or have fallen under the sway of foolishness. Believe it or not, but the Blood Angels do actually have more tactical marines than RAS... The idea that the only BA way to play is with DoA, or RAS or whatever - is camel do-do. Take tactical squads! Take devastators! Take whatever you want to, but please please ignore anyone who tells you the only way to play is with RAS...

[Brother_Byhlli]

i usually take one tactical squad to hold the home objective and have everything else push forward, grabbing the last objectives gets tough when you stop moving with the RAS so its good to make sure they can always move and charge. The last game i played lasted 7 turns so it was hard to determine when they should stop moving and grab something, and against eldar the last turns are crucial with all the fast units on both sides. What do you guys do when your unsure how many more turn the game will be?

Please do not use chat speak (u,ur). It is against forum rules.

 

As for last turn, well, its a risk. You know there is a chance the game will end on turn 5, so you need to make sure you are winning then. Same for 6.

 

*you're

 

:D

[Brother_Byhlli]

but that isn't really Blood Angel like now is it.

You appear to be sadly mistaken, or have fallen under the sway of foolishness. Believe it or not, but the Blood Angels do actually have more tactical marines than RAS... The idea that the only BA way to play is with DoA, or RAS or whatever - is camel do-do. Take tactical squads! Take devastators! Take whatever you want to, but please please ignore anyone who tells you the only way to play is with RAS...

 

I agree that Tactical Squads are viable. I don't agree they're viable for Blood Angels. We have alternatives that other chapters don't have and almost every single chapter that you can run either using characters in the Space Marine codex or using the Space Wolves codex does Tactical Squads better than we do.

 

So far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to play Blood Angels Tactical Squads if you're playing a tactical game using the current codex. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of fluff reasons. But Tactical Squads have absolutely no place in a Blood Angels army and if you're using them, you're using the wrong army.

 

Paint your models red by all means, but if you're using Tactical Squads in my opinion you should be using the rules for another army.

[toaae]

I hate to repeat myself, so I'll keep it brief: That is flat out ignorant Byhlli.

 

Our tactical squads are actually better then non-Vulcan Tacticals squads because of:

 

1. Fast Transports
   
2. Access to Feel No Pain
   
3. Access to Furious Charge
   

 

Tacticals get a bad rap within the Blood Angel community, but they aren't exactly inferior in all situations to Assault Squads. They are worse at charging. They are worse at small squads in razorbacks. And that is it.

 

Tactical squads are superior for holding objectives. They are superior at providing close range support to our heavy-hitters. And they are more durable, since they do not rely on getting hit back to do their damage*, and have a transport to shield them. Finally, they are more flexible; if you have to assault, you can, and only at the cost of 9 attacks vs. a RAS squad.

 

Tactical squads as 10-man, Rhino mounted close-range support squads and objective holders are better as Blood Angels then any other chapter, with the exception of Vulcan armies, and that is still arguable. They are solid Blood Angel units, and I feel they are vastly underrated.

 

*=Shooting doesn't get you hit back. Assaulting allows the enemy to hit you back, in YOUR turn. That's all I mean.

 

 

On topic:

 

I have to agree with the other assertions that RAS do not hold objectives. I personally use Tactical squads so I can hold objectives, as I do not like the "all or nothing" approach all-RAS armies employ.

[Sir Blayse]

In small games I only run the RAS, but once at the 1500 to 2000 point range, then I think a squad of Tac's is worth having.

 

I have also had pretty good luck running a list with three tactical squads and 3 sang. priests. Each squad was in cover and spread out, so with the FNP did not die. They could also charge with FC if they needed to drop a weakened target.

 

Of course I also like having DC with bolters at times as well. 2' shootings and rapid fire assaults are fun. CC are better, but bolters are not too shabby.

 

Also, fast rhino are still great for getting a tac squad onto a late game objective- a ten-man tac squad is a lot harder to shift than a 5 man RAS.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I hate to repeat myself, so I'll keep it brief: That is flat out ignorant Byhlli.

 

Suffice it to say I disagree. Twice now I've got halfway through writing a reply and both times my computer has shut down to reconfigure without either warning me or asking me if I wanted it to happen. Who the :) decided that was a ;) sensible design feature? :cuss

 

Sadly I'm not interested in writing it again. I'll get into it tomorrow. Let's hope this isn't B&C's equivalent to Fermat's last theorem....

 

a ten-man tac squad is a lot harder to shift than a 5 man RAS.

 

And, what, a ten-man Assault Squad isn't harder to shift than a five-man Tactical Squad???

[awfulawful]

While Blood Angel tac squads do get some juicy add-ons, I have to agree that if one wants to build an army around them, there are better codexes (codicies?) to choose from. I've been a Fists player (see my avatar) for years, and when I want tac squads, I have 50 little yellow mans with combat tactics and cheap rhinos ready to die for the Emperor. I came over to the Blood Angels for jump packs, DC, Sang Guard, punchy dreads and freakin' airplanes.

 

If Blood Angels is the one army you run, then by all means add some tac squads in, they most certainly have their use and can be very good at a number of jobs. If they are the what you are building around, then it is certainly worth looking at the other PA books.

[Leonaides]

I came over to the Blood Angels for jump packs, DC, Sang Guard, punchy dreads and freakin' airplanes.

 

And straight away, you show how you've closed your mind. What characters in C:SM make Tac squads so much better? Marneus gives you the choice to auto-pass or fail Ld tests - not so useful to me since I dont plan on ever needing to take Ld tests. Ditto Lysander and stubborn, and his bolter drill only affects 1 unit. Sicarius's special rule - only 1 unit affected. Vulkan - sure, MC thunderhammers and meltaweapons... So thats potentially 2 or 3 attacks from the sergeant if you give him the TH, and a meltagun shot thats more likely to hit. Nice, but not exactly the sort of thing I'd expect to give me an auto-win. His best unit to affect is Hammernators. Who else is there? Kantor - better with Sternguard, and the +1A is nice, but not exactly a game-breaker. Also, who surrounds Kantor with Tac squads?

 

Shrike and Khan - movement/deployment bonuses... Clever thinking in the deployment/movement phase can get you to just as good a position anyway for your tac squads - these guys actually have a minimal bonus for tac squads.

 

If there was a Character in C:SM who (for 150 pts) gave every Tac squad FC, FNP and upgraded all Rhino variants to fast vehicles you'd never see the other characters get a look-in. And for 150pts worth of SP, thats exactly what you can do with a BA army.

[knife&fork]

stuff

 

So you want to give your Tacticals FNP and FC? Away goes the fast rhino or drop pod option unless you prefer your tacs without special or heavy weapons. I don't think I need to go into details on how much better a deal you get on a razorback squad with assault marines...

[Bartali]

Aye, can't see a reason for Tacticals in a BA list - they don't get Combact Tactics, a Priest gives them minimum benefit to make it worth the cost of one, and Fast Rhinos aren't worth the points as you're only likely to be moving on turn 1.

 

If i wanted an objective holder in a mech list, it's hard to argue with a 5 man Assault Squad in a Las/Plas Razor; or a Scout squad in a jumper list. 9/10 times out of ten you don't need an objective holder, use your speed to get in to position on turn 4/5.

[Taz]

I think we're all getting a little heated under the assumption that Tactical Squads are going to be the star of the show in an army. Surprise, fellas, they're not. Personally I side with Leonaides and Tahaal when they say discounting Tactical squads completely simply because we wear the blood drop is a little ignorant and needlessly inhibiting to your army. That said, Tacticals are not and will not be anything other than just another element of your army that needs to be synergized with the rest. Every. Single. Rhino. Variant that we have is a fast vehicle. That means they can keep pace with our much vaunted Assault squads, whether they're mounted in a razor or jump-packing. A SP doesn't need to be mounted with the Tac squad because there are plenty of other methods of transporting him safely around the field, offering a 6" bubble to everyone. Theoretically with the right deployment and movement a single SP could provide FNP to any number of squads provided they have a model within the bubble. At the end of the day our Tac squads can take objectives and hold ground, which is exactly what they were meant to do. It's exactly what a Tactical squad from a Raven Guard, Imperial Fist, Ultramarine, Dark Angel, Space Wolf, Iron Hand etc., etc., would be expected to do. Just because ours don't get all the toys that other armies would get doesn't make them any worse. At the end of the day they're all Space Marines and the only difference is the color of the armor and how the rest of the army around them is behaving. Our Tactical squads are as good as any other for their role. If you want to discount them simply because they don't get an extra special weapon or Combat Tactics that's on you, but we have the means and tech to make our troops just as good if not better at holding ground despite not having an extra plasma gun. Any army that relies strictly on tactical squads with no support is going to lose. You guys seem to be spacing on the fact that the key to winning, with any army as much as ours, that it's how different units work together fulfilling their ideal roles. The question at the start of the thread was can you hold an objective with a RAS. Theoretically yes. However, any Tactical squad, from any army INCLUDING ours, will do it better, because that's exactly what Tactical squads were made to do.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[awfulawful]

I came over to the Blood Angels for jump packs, DC, Sang Guard, punchy dreads and freakin' airplanes.

 

And straight away, you show how you've closed your mind.

 

I am not disagreeing with you. I do advocate the use of tac squads; I am simply stating my belief that the BA codex has a lot of other fun options and a tac-centric army might be played better with a different book.

 

 

What characters in C:SM make Tac squads so much better?

 

combat tactics

 

No characters. They all take away combat tactics, which is pretty useful for objective sitters. Nobody wants to take leadership checks, but if your opponent wants to shift you off that objective, you're going to lose some guys. Being able to fall back to avoid an unwanted assault and then double tap back, or break out of a losing fight is not a bad trick.

[awfulawful]

The question at the start of the thread was can you hold an objective with a RAS. Theoretically yes. However, any Tactical squad, from any army INCLUDING ours, will do it better, because that's exactly what Tactical squads were made to do.

 

Some great points in this post, but this sums it up best.

[SamaNagol]

I use my RAS in Razors to take any objectives within an 18" radius in turn 5 that I know my opponent cannot contest. I then contest everything else with the rest of my army.

[thade]

I have been building all of my BA lists for the past year and a half now centered around Tacticals and I feel I've done just fine. (Awfulawful has seen me in action, if you need a citation.) I still play Assault teams like I used to back in the Vanilla Codex: they sit tight with my tacticals until I need them to counter-charge or intercept an impending charge. Assault teams hit hard on the charge, especially in a BA list, sure...but their real strength is mobility, in my opinion.

 

Assault teams will do more wounds if you charge; I'm sure some of you might be thinking "Well, when would I not want to charge?" There are times when charging is not optimal; for instance, when charging might put me in a bad spot...if I kill what I charge and can't consolidate back into cover, or if charging takes me off of an objective late game, or if charging puts me into charge range of not one, but two or more units that could charge and pit me. I might want to hold my ground (in cover) or fall back. In those cases, the Emperor's Holy Rapid Fire and I get along great. Also, a Tac team just sitting around can contribute fire 24" out and not put themselves into charge range (which an assault team can't do); not to mention the free heavy weapon.

 

Tacticals are not uniformly worse in all cases; nor are they better. They do just fine by me.

 

In answer to the original question, I have used RAS to hold objectives, but only late game...as them just sitting on an objective is definitely not leveraging their mobility and hitting power. Then again, I seldom leave a Tac squad sitting on an objective either, as that's a lot of boltguns I'm not leveraging when I do.