Iron Priest on TWM

[Grimtooth]

I posted this up in the Wolves, but figure it needs a run through the OR:

 

Something came up today that got me thinking;

Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close

combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending

attacks? (p34)

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page

62 says that it ʻ… has the Rending special rule in close

combat with any attack that does not use a special close

combat weaponʼ. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as

well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter)

 

A servo-arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Initiative 1 and Strength 8.

 

A servo-arm on an Iron Priest with a TWM is Rending.

[Dan VK]

I posted this up in the Wolves, but figure it needs a run through the OR:

 

Something came up today that got me thinking;

Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close

combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending

attacks? (p34)

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page

62 says that it ʻ… has the Rending special rule in close

combat with any attack that does not use a special close

combat weaponʼ. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as

well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter)

 

A servo-arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Initiative 1 and Strength 8.

 

A servo-arm on an Iron Priest with a TWM is Rending.

:P

 

"NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them." BRB pg42

 

"SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

These include more complex and power weapons that enhance the wielder’s combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them." BRB pg42

 

"A servo-arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Iniative 1 and Strength 8. Attacks from a servo-arm ignore armour saves. Only one attack can be made by a servo-arm per Assault phase." C:SW pg38

 

A servo-arm is a special close combat weapon.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

:P

 

"NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them." BRB pg42

 

"SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

These include more complex and power weapons that enhance the wielder’s combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them." BRB pg42

 

"A servo-arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Iniative 1 and Strength 8. Attacks from a servo-arm ignore armour saves. Only one attack can be made by a servo-arm per Assault phase." C:SW pg38

 

A servo-arm is a special close combat weapon.

Well, the servo arm adds an attack made at a specific initiative value [1], and with a specific strength [8]. Which is just what an additional close combat weapon does too, an extra attack made at a specific intiative (the model's initiative value) and strength (the model's own strength).

[Something Wycked]

Well, the servo arm adds an attack made at a specific initiative value [1], and with a specific strength [8]. Which is just what an additional close combat weapon does too, an extra attack made at a specific intiative (the model's initiative value) and strength (the model's own strength).

Normal close combat weapons strike at the bearer's initiative and strength. Special close combat weapons, as Dan pointed out:

 

"SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

These include more complex and power weapons that enhance the wielder’s combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them." BRB pg42

A servo arm confers both bonuses (higher strength, ignores armor) and a penalty (lowered initiative) and so fits neatly into the definition of "Special Close Combat Weapons."

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Well, the servo arm adds an attack made at a specific initiative value [1], and with a specific strength [8]. Which is just what an additional close combat weapon does too, an extra attack made at a specific intiative (the model's initiative value) and strength (the model's own strength).

Normal close combat weapons strike at the bearer's initiative and strength. Special close combat weapons, as Dan pointed out:

 

"SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS

These include more complex and power weapons that enhance the wielder’s combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them." BRB pg42

A servo arm confers both bonuses (higher strength, ignores armor) and a penalty (lowered initiative) and so fits neatly into the definition of "Special Close Combat Weapons."

It adds an attack, with extra stuff to it, like a power weapon. It doesn't modify the user's strength, nor lower his initiative.

 

Beyond that, point conceeded.

[Grimtooth]

A thunderwolf mount increases the strength of the model equipped with it and changes the model's attacks to Rending. Is a thunderwolf mount a special close combat weapon?

 

A servo-arm is never classified as a weapon. It is wargear just like a thunderwolf mount.

[Something Wycked]

Is it possible to make close combat attacks with wargear that is not a weapon?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Example from the Space Wolves codex:

 

Njal's raven does d3 S 3 close combat attacks, if I remember correctly. It's wargear, not a weapon. Although the idea of someone whacking a person with a raven is quite interesting.

[Dan VK]

To further shore up my proposal that wargear which grants bonuses to close combat attacks are not normal weapons:

"In most cases, when rolling to wound in close combat, you use the Strength on the attacker's profile regardless of what weapon they are using. Some close combat weapons give the attacker a Strength bonus - this is explained later in Special Close Combat Attacks." BRB pg38

 

A thunderwolf mount increases the strength of the model equipped with it and changes the model's attacks to Rending. Is a thunderwolf mount a special close combat weapon?

 

A servo-arm is never classified as a weapon. It is wargear just like a thunderwolf mount.

"A character with a Thunderwolf Mount has the unit type of cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack to his profile, and has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon." C:SW pg62

 

A model equipped with a Thunderwolf Mount strikes in close combat with the S listed in his profile, which is adjusted by the wargear. Also, all weapons are wargear. Look at the Army List entries.

 

 

[EDIT: I went AFK for a minute and was late to the party.]

[Something Wycked]

Example from the Space Wolves codex:

 

Njal's raven does d3 S 3 close combat attacks, if I remember correctly. It's wargear, not a weapon. Although the idea of someone whacking a person with a raven is quite interesting.

And Coteaz' Psyber Eagle in C:Grey Knights is a piece of wargear. Both use ranged weapon profiles to define their effects and are "fired" in the Shooting phase, like every other ranged weapon- very similarly to the servo arm's use in the Assault phase with the profile of a special close combat weapon.

[Dan VK]

Example from the Space Wolves codex:

 

Njal's raven does d3 S 3 close combat attacks, if I remember correctly. It's wargear, not a weapon. Although the idea of someone whacking a person with a raven is quite interesting.

And Coteaz' Psyber Eagle in C:Grey Knights is a piece of wargear. Both use ranged weapon profiles to define their effects and are "fired" in the Shooting phase, like every other ranged weapon- very similarly to the servo arm's use in the Assault phase with the profile of a special close combat weapon.

Nightwing, Njal's psyber-raven, is actually used in the Assault phase, but I do not understand its relevance.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Per the Nightwing entry of the Space Wolves codex, p. 53:

 

Thou shalt take thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch-

 

No, that's not it.

 

Ah:

 

In the assault phase a single model in base contact with Njal(chosen by the owning player) suffers D3 S3 hits at an Initiative of 5 as Nightwing flies down to peck their eyes.

 

In fact, that sounds almost exactly like the rules for a Servo-Arm. It gives you a strength, number of attacks, and an initiative.

 

EDIT: The relevance is that it's wargear, not a special close combat weapon.

[Dan VK]

Per the Nightwing entry of the Space Wolves codex, p. 53:

 

Thou shalt take thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch-

 

No, that's not it.

 

Ah:

 

In the assault phase a single model in base contact with Njal(chosen by the owning player) suffers D3 S3 hits at an Initiative of 5 as Nightwing flies down to peck their eyes.

 

In fact, that sounds almost exactly like the rules for a Servo-Arm. It gives you a strength, number of attacks, and an initiative.

Are you suggesting that attacks granted by Stormwing may use the force weapon rules because Njal has a runic weapon?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, where do you get that impression? The rules for the force weapon refer to the force weapon itself, and only the force weapon.

[Dan VK]

No, where do you get that impression? The rules for the force weapon refer to the force weapon itself, and only the force weapon.

I missed your edit, as I was responding when you made it. Thank you for answering. :) When I think I am probably being dense I ask just to make sure. ;)

 

The difference is that Stormwing does not allow Njal to make any additional attacks; a model engaged with Njal suffers attacks during the Assault phase.

 

 

[EDIT: Winkies!]

[Grimtooth]

Let's look at the actual facts;

 

Page 62, Space Wolves Codex: Upgrades and other Equipment: Servo-arm

 

Page 38, Space Wolves Codex. Iron Priests: Wargear: Servo-arm

 

Neither one of those reference the servo-arm as being a close combat weapon. Now lets check the BRB,

 

Page 42, BRB: Close Combat Weapons

 

The kicker here is that if the servo-arm was a special close combat weapon, per the rules you would have to choose it or the thunderhammer.

 

The servo-arm is not a special close combat weapon. It is not indexed as any type of weapon in the codex and neither does it follow the rules for two special close combat weapons in assault. As per the TWM and FAQ andy attack not made with a special close combat weapon is Rending.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, where do you get that impression? The rules for the force weapon refer to the force weapon itself, and only the force weapon.

I missed your edit, as I was responding when you made it. Thank you for answering. :) When I think I am probably being dense I ask just to make sure. ;)

 

The difference is that Stormwing does not allow Njal to make any additional attacks; a model engaged with Njal suffers attacks during the Assault phase.

 

 

[EDIT: Winkies!]

 

The difference is that the servo-arm does not allow the Iron Priest to make any additional attacks; a model engaged with the Iron Priest suffers an attack during the Assault phase.

[Dan VK]

Let's look at the actual facts;

 

Page 62, Space Wolves Codex: Upgrades and other Equipment: Servo-arm

 

Page 38, Space Wolves Codex. Iron Priests: Wargear: Servo-arm

 

Neither one of those reference the servo-arm as being a close combat weapon. Now lets check the BRB,

 

Page 42, BRB: Close Combat Weapons

 

The kicker here is that if the servo-arm was a special close combat weapon, per the rules you would have to choose it or the thunderhammer.

 

The servo-arm is not a special close combat weapon. It is not indexed as any type of weapon in the codex and neither does it follow the rules for two special close combat weapons in assault. As per the TWM and FAQ andy attack not made with a special close combat weapon is Rending.

I understand your argument. You are proposing that all close combat attacks not made with a special close combat weapon are Rending, and the servo-arm is wargear, not a weapon, which grants an extra close combat attack with extra rules, so the attack granted is Rending.

 

It is not that simple. Special close combat attack and special close combat weapon are use interchangeably. A special close combat attack is any close combat attack not made using the model's characteristic profile. Special close combat weapons provide these adjustments. This form of interpretation is necessary, because without it the rules would not function. The Thunderwolf Mount entry, for example, references the Rending special rule. There is no special rule. The BRB only mentions rending weapons, whether they are shooting weapons or close combat weapons, and rending close combat weapons are special close combat weapons.

 

Regardless of the paragraph above, the servo-arm entry makes no mention of the extra close combat attack being capable of receiving additional special rules. If it is made at S8 and I1 but may be combined with Rending, why can it not be combined with a Thunder Hammer, which would not change the attack characteristics of the servo-arm attack, as it states what those are, regardless of modifiers, but would grant the stun effect?

 

The difference is that the servo-arm does not allow the Iron Priest to make any additional attacks; a model engaged with the Iron Priest suffers an attack during the Assault phase.

"A servo-arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Initiative 1 and Strength 8." C:SW pg38

 

It it grants the Iron Priest an extra attack, why is the Iron Priest not considered to be making it?

 

 

[EDIT: Grammar. Spacing. Fighting zombies.]

[Something Wycked]

The RAW might support giving Rending to servo arm attacks. However.

 

The problem, Ramses, is that the addition of Strength and Rending to the model's attacks is supposed to represent the Thunderwolf aiding the rider in battle, enhancing his normal attacks.

 

A servo arm is by no stretch a normal attack.

 

If you, or other SW players, want to take advantage of that RAW loophole and somehow add Rending Thunderwolf teeth and claws to the jaws of the servo arm, feel free. :)

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Saying it grants the model an extra attack is the same as saying the model attacks. Nightwing could be called a special servo-arm, because they both add a number of attacks at a separate initiative and strength.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Is it possible to make close combat attacks with wargear that is not a weapon?

Meltabombs, krak grenades. Neither are listed as weapons, they are wargear. Cleasing Flame is a psychic power. It counts as a close combat attack.

 

Shall I continue?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Don't forget Nightwing. We've debated him enough.

[Grimtooth]

The RAW might support giving Rending to servo arm attacks. However.

 

The problem, Ramses, is that the addition of Strength and Rending to the model's attacks is supposed to represent the Thunderwolf aiding the rider in battle, enhancing his normal attacks.

 

A servo arm is by no stretch a normal attack.

 

If you, or other SW players, want to take advantage of that RAW loophole and somehow add Rending Thunderwolf teeth and claws to the jaws of the servo arm, feel free. :)

 

The thunderwolf does not have a seperate attack profile from the rider. A model armed with two normal close combat weapons will make those attacks using the Rending rule. The bonus attack for having two close combat weapons will be Rending. This is not representative of the thunderwolf adding to the attacks. If that was the case, the sole additional attack the thunderwolf adds would be the only Rending attack and the rest would be normal.

 

The servo-arm is designated by the rules as being an additional attack. Not an attack made by a special close combat weapon or even a weapon at all. It is an additional attack granted by a piece of wargear.

[Dan VK]

The thunderwolf does not have a seperate attack profile from the rider. A model armed with two normal close combat weapons will make those attacks using the Rending rule. The bonus attack for having two close combat weapons will be Rending. This is not representative of the thunderwolf adding to the attacks. If that was the case, the sole additional attack the thunderwolf adds would be the only Rending attack and the rest would be normal.

 

The servo-arm is designated by the rules as being an additional attack. Not an attack made by a special close combat weapon or even a weapon at all. It is an additional attack granted by a piece of wargear.

Please correct me if am I wrong, but I believe you are proposing that the attack granted by a servo-arm is identical to an extra attack granted by having two close combat weapons, except where otherwise noted (S8 I1 ignores armor). If this is the case, what prevents an attack granted by a servo-arm from being made with a special close combat weapon at the S and I provided by the servo-arm entry?

[Grimtooth]

The thunderwolf does not have a seperate attack profile from the rider. A model armed with two normal close combat weapons will make those attacks using the Rending rule. The bonus attack for having two close combat weapons will be Rending. This is not representative of the thunderwolf adding to the attacks. If that was the case, the sole additional attack the thunderwolf adds would be the only Rending attack and the rest would be normal.

 

The servo-arm is designated by the rules as being an additional attack. Not an attack made by a special close combat weapon or even a weapon at all. It is an additional attack granted by a piece of wargear.

Please correct me if am I wrong, but I believe you are proposing that the attack granted by a servo-arm is identical to an extra attack granted by having two close combat weapons, except where otherwise noted (S8 I1 ignores armor). If this is the case, what prevents an attack granted by a servo-arm from being made with a special close combat weapon at the S and I provided by the servo-arm entry?

 

I am not proposing that at all.

 

The servo-arm attack is just an additional attack granted to the model at Str 8 and I 1. It has not special magic about it, it is not designated special or normal for that matter. If your read the rule and the FAQ, they both specify ANY attack not made by a special close combat weapon is Rending. The servo-arm is not designated anywhere as being a special close combat weapon, hence it falls under that ANY attack not made by a sccw umbrella.