Running Paladins without Draigo

[Crynn]

The obvious use for Paladins is taking Draigo as a HQ and making them the core or even all of your army, but are there other ways to integrate paladins into an army?

 

I personally Use 10 Paladins with a grand master who will always make them scoring if necessary, this is because I do not have the points for draigo and the Grand amster comes with a full assortment of grenades?

 

Does anyone use them without draigo or can people see it being feasible without him in a coteaz list with the Paladins as a rock?

 

I am looking for ideas, army list whatever, I think they have use outside of a full Draigowing.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[KnowThyEnemy]

coteaz with rock you say? how about....

 

Coteaz

10 paladins: 4 x MC psycannons

3 plasma servitors, 2 jokearo, 6 crusaders: chimera

10 DCA: Rhino

10 DCA: Rhino

10 DCA: Rhino

3 x Psyrifle Dreads

 

2k on the dot. you can split the pallies or keep them as a largeeeee objective holding force. coteaz joins the chimera group for some long distance shooting. DCA drive around causing general mayhem. psyrifles do their thing. not a bad list id say, especially considering you can do the ole 12" pop smoke with the rhinos, giving you three 10 man squads of DCA at mid field 1st turn. that could cause problems :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No, you don't need Draigo to field Paladins effectively, his Troops bonus just lets you make a Paladin-heavy army if you wish.

 

I find the following unit gives best results;

 

Paladin w/Bro Banner, 4 x Paladins w/halberd+psycannon,

3 x Paladins w/halberds, 2 x Paladins w/hammers

(655 points)

 

Who you attach depends on who you take. Against people without significant AP2, S8+ multiple shots or templates, Stormhammers etc, you can leave the Paladins in a big blob and just walk up the mid-field, casually dispatching pretty much anything that comes your way. 16 psycannon shots turn most things to red paste, and whatever is left is going to have to kill off the Pallies somehow or face a similar fate.

Against anyone else who does have some modicum of anti-Deathstar gear, splitting them works a treat. You can now threaten two units a turn, and split up your Grandmaster and Libby between them (I'd probably chuck Grandmaster in with the Bro Banner, and take the Librarian with the other Combat squad).

 

As Deathstars go, its not overly expensive when you take into account how much you dominate both shooting and close-combat, and of course, you pack such solid defences (2 wounds, TDA, Shrouding etc).

[Angelis Mortis]

coteaz with rock you say? how about....

 

Coteaz

10 paladins: 4 x MC psycannons

3 plasma servitors, 2 jokearo, 6 crusaders: chimera

10 DCA: Rhino

10 DCA: Rhino

10 DCA: Rhino

3 x Psyrifle Dreads

 

2k on the dot. you can split the pallies or keep them as a largeeeee objective holding force. coteaz joins the chimera group for some long distance shooting. DCA drive around causing general mayhem. psyrifles do their thing. not a bad list id say, especially considering you can do the ole 12" pop smoke with the rhinos, giving you three 10 man squads of DCA at mid field 1st turn. that could cause problems :)

 

 

30 T3 models w/5+ save who stand around for a turn and get shot to bits and not even return at least flashlight fire? NO THANKS!

[KnowThyEnemy]

why would you have 30 models standing around for a turn pray tell? :P the strength of that list isn't centered around the DCA, its centered around the paladins. the DCA are there as scoring units and as CC disruption. not many things survive the storm of fire that is 3 psyrifle dreads and 10 paladins, but thats just my experience.

[Brother Valerius]

I think he means because if you have your DCA in a Rhino, they can't assault until the turn after they disembark. Thus a turn of them sitting around looking pretty until they can actually assault something. If you don't mean to transport them in the Rhinos, then you'd be better off with another transport instead, surely.

[confused_gordy]

The problem with fielding pallies without draigo is they become much less resilient. Draigo makes a paladin unit much better, not just because of scoring, but mainly because of wound allocation, and 3++ and eternal warrioryness. Without draigos protection pallies are considerably more squishy.

 

Add to that, without an attached character that are also more easily broken (ld9).

 

Yes a grand master can help them with grenades, but that will not help anywhere near as much as draigo does by soaking wounds for them.

[jeffersonian000]

I've run 5 Paladins in a 750pt army quite successfylly.

 

Brotherhood Champion w/ Psybolts

 

:P 5-man Paladin Squad w/ 2x Psycannon, 3x NFH, Psybolts (had points to burn)

 

;) 6-man GKSS w/ 1x Psycannon, 5x NFH

 

^_^ 6-man GKSS w/ 1x Psycannon, 5x NFH

 

Kepted the Champ with the pallies, and moved them as a single unit to midfield or objective grabbing. Had the PAGK holding backfield in terrain and sniping at 24", while their "pikes" kepted them from being charged. At 750pts, 4 psycannons are a bit overkill.

 

SJ

[thade]

Without draigos protection pallies are considerably more squishy.

It's a significant decrease, but they are by no means helpless without Draigo. Think about them like Nobz, who've been using wound alloc shenanigans for years without a Draigo equivalent. Each one of them still has two wounds and a different load out...so you can bounce wounds around and allocate the insta-kill wounds to the guys who already have a wound on them (like Nobz do). Unlike Nobz, you don't have to favor the one guy with Cybork parts...because all of your guys have a 5++. What's more they all have a 2+, making them more resilient than Nobz. And Nobz are incredibly resilient. They soak a stupid amount of small arms fire. If you can't melta focus them or charge them with TH/SS termies, they're here to stay.

 

So...taking Draigo is obviously good. But he is not required for your Pallies to be hard.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree with Thade. Draigo is nice for catching the odd lascannon, and of course he dominates close-combat all by himself (backed up by Pallies, you're curb-stomping most things handily), but I don't consider him mandatory. He only adds one wound soaker, and being 2W Terminators, Pallies don't need wound sinks really (and they have close-combat covered).

 

The real question is, is it worth taking the whole rock (to create an insanely durable meatshield for the Libby+Grandmaster to hide inside, or two units for one Elite slot that dominate close-combat and each bring decent fire support), or would regular Terminators do the job just as well? Regular Terminators don't need 'TGS' to be burned to make them scoring, they pump out the same amount of attacks (just at WS4), and you only have two less psycannons (meaning no combat squadding). By taking regular Terminators, you also free up points for a fire support Purifier unit, which is more bodies, more psycannon and the utility of 'Cleansing Flame'. Setting up combat squads of Purifiers with Strikes let you shield them from enemy charges (and multi-charging enemies and double casting 'Cleansing Flame' is brutal).

 

At 2k, I'd say Paladin Deathstar is a bit pricey, you're kinda stretched for points just fielding the basics anyway (Libby, Vindicare, 2 x Strikes, 2 x PsyDreads, greatsword+teleporter DK). Here is where Terminator blob+Purifiers works great. At 2.5k, you have the space to stretch out (at 655pts, the Pallies basically eat up the additional space, then some), and you'll see other armies bringing their uber-heroes and uber-units as well. Paladins are utterly lethal, and the list of things that can take them on and win is vanishingly small (Tyranid Warriors will get shot into red paste before they can lash whip you, Nob Bikers/Thunderwolves go after halberds, Stormhammers have to be 10-man to get enough survivors into combat to smush Paladins).

[thade]

Just to add to Darius's points, straight-up Terminators tend to run cheaper as you don't buy them crap tons of upgrades. ;)

[nurglez]

well for my 15 paladins, 6 psycannons and then 20 points worth of "extra war gear" (falchion and 3 MC's). Just because you can add stuff on doesn't mean you have to. All of my paladins are unique apart from 2 guys who are twins ;)

[The Holy Heretic]

The pallie deathstar is rarely useful, compared to more/different units. I mean, how often do you need 20+ force weapon attacks.

 

I personally run 5 with my grand master, in my Coteaz list and they usually get the job done :woot:

[Crynn]

The pallie deathstar is rarely useful, compared to more/different units. I mean, how often do you need 20+ force weapon attacks.

 

I personally run 5 with my grand master, in my Coteaz list and they usually get the job done

 

I am finding something rather similar though I still run 10 pallies

 

Regards,

Crynn

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Just yesterday I ran a single palladin as a 75 pt hammer/psycannon hero who I kept as my ace in the hole in reserve for a DS.

 

I was playing a 2k list against space wolves and had a few points kicking around. Since it was a casual game and didn't feel like shuffling too much of my army around to make space for another full unit, I decided, what the heck, large field, lots of space for my servo skulls. lets give it a shot.

 

He did alright, killed 4 wolves in total, one with a thunder hammer and one with a melta gun so he made his points back.

He ds'ed in 4th turn and wiffed his psycannon shots into some wolves that were about to be assaulted by my interceptors. not a good start. He then jumped into a free storm raven on 5th and cruised over the the enemy objective where his ultimate use was finishing off the scoring unit in the last turn (6th).

 

In retrospect, the hammer was probably a bad decision, at the end of the game he took on my opponents last scoring unit (reduced to 4 wolves from a few rounds of shooting from my psyflemen and a rhino explosion) and wiped them out after shooting and in a round of combat, but it was close, almost got pasted by his thunder hammer. a halberd or sword or replacing him as an inquisitor (extra wound) in terminator armor would have been a better choice, but again this was for kicks.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Just to add to Darius's points, straight-up Terminators tend to run cheaper as you don't buy them crap tons of upgrades. :P

 

Sure they run cheaper, but then again they are only one wound each.

 

I thought the whole reason everyone was in love with Paladins is because of the huge bonuses they get for a mere 15 points more than a Terminator. Namely 1 additional wound, and the ability to take 2 Psycannons per 5 models (at 20 points per cannon rather than 25).

 

Even if you don't take a crap ton of upgrades with Paladins, they still are more durable to most things and can pump out more psycannon shots than Terminators can for the equivalent points.

[jeffersonian000]

Just yesterday I ran a single palladin as a 75 pt hammer/psycannon hero who I kept as my ace in the hole in reserve for a DS.

 

How did you put a psycannon on him? Don't they need a minimun of 5 to unlock psycannon at 2 per 5 models?

 

SJ

[Crynn]

Unfortunately a single paladin cannot have a psycannon Mr Jefforson is correct.

 

I am finding just deepstriking ten using a GMs psychic communion very usefull.

 

Unfortunately a single paladin cannot have a psycannon Mr Jefforson is correct.

 

I am finding just deepstriking ten using a GMs psychic communion very usefull.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've been runing a conventional 10 man deathstar led by a Psycannon/sword Grandmaster backed up by two conventional 10 man terminator squads. Whole thing comes in at 2k and is quite effective.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Draigo. At 230 points my Grandmaster has a 3++ in close combat (the sword boosts his iron halo) and still has the psycannon shots. While Draigo is 275 and the only thing he really brings to the table is 3++ against shooting and eternal warrior. I know allot of folks swear by his eternal warrior trait but in a GK army every point is crucial and needs to be justified.

 

With my set up I have 31 terminators while a Draigowing would only be around 20.

[nurglez]

But the other benefit Draigo brings, apart from his eternal warrior and 3++ to shooting, is he makes paladins scoring, thus allowing a whole army of paladins.

 

If you are only using 1 squad of paladins, then he isn't as needed, as you will have other troops. Yes Draigo is expensive, yes you cant customise him, but his eternal warrior and 3++ helps keep paladins in his squad alive.

 

He also opens up the posibility of having very cheap troop choices (55 points for a single scoring paladin ^_^ ).

 

In a non Draigo wing army, I doubt I would ever use him, but I doubt I would use logan if I wasn't running a logan wing either...

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Just yesterday I ran a single palladin as a 75 pt hammer/psycannon hero who I kept as my ace in the hole in reserve for a DS.

 

How did you put a psycannon on him? Don't they need a minimun of 5 to unlock psycannon at 2 per 5 models?

 

SJ

 

aaah yes, a closer look and you are correct. Regardless, running him as an inquisitor would have fielded the same result as what occured in the battle itself, so for similar points, and with the results of the battle (i had a storm raven contesting his obj regardless) it had an insignificant result on the battle. but regardless, mental note made.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I've been runing a conventional 10 man deathstar led by a Psycannon/sword Grandmaster backed up by two conventional 10 man terminator squads. Whole thing comes in at 2k and is quite effective.

 

I am leaning towards this way of thinking as well. Especially because I play more often at 1500 than anything else. All Paladins is extremely pricey at that points level. Taking one 10 man squad, either as a deathstar, or as something to combat squad for extra fire power, seems like it would be enough. Which means no Draigo needed. Depending on what else I take, Grand Strategy might not be needed either. Which means a Librarian could be taken as the sole HQ.

 

I feel like I am going to have to run a bunch of practice games with a "counts as" army before I build my GKs....

[thade]

I feel like I am going to have to run a bunch of practice games with a "counts as" army before I build my GKs....

An excellent idea before spending hundreds of dollars/euros/pick-your-poison on a ton of new plastic you might end up disliking. <_<

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like to run the generic GM since he can take all the grenades... Plus the psycannon.

 

G ;)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I feel like I am going to have to run a bunch of practice games with a "counts as" army before I build my GKs....

An excellent idea before spending hundreds of dollars/euros/pick-your-poison on a ton of new plastic you might end up disliking. :)

 

Oh it is too late for me. ;) I have several boxes of GK Terminators/Paladins. I just have not built them yet. Not sure what the mix of Paladins to Termies is going to be....