CC Ravenwing

[Droma]

Was reading another forum that had the usual discussion of why DA should have a separate codex and so I was brainstorming some ideas for things DA could get and I came up with one that I don't remember being mentioned anywhere before.

 

Assault oriented ravenwing bike squads. As far as I know there currently aren't any CC oriented bikes so that would help push us further away from other codexes but it also fits very nicely with our newly established fluff from the HH books. The calibanite DA were originally knights and so were extensively trained on horseback with chainsword and bolt pistol. I would think the tradition would be an instant carryover to the legion as your just switching a bike for a horse. Our biker sergeants are already very good in CC because of the base 2 attacks so an entire unit with extra attacks would give entirely bike lists or even regular lists some the maneuverable hard hitting cc unit they need. It'd also be a nice alternative to using assault marines.

 

So what do you guys think?

[Bryan Blaire]

Yup, and is something I was planning on suggesting for the Project: Unforgiven.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, great idea.

If they had BP/CCW they would be worth it their current points in CC and more in line with vs C:SM bikers point level.

 

Does make us a bit more "special" :P

 

Charging into cover is still an issue for us to deal with though.....

 

s

[Droma]

As for cover Stobz I that may just be a drawback we deal with but I would think skilled rider would be tossed in as well.

[shabbadoo]

I mentioned this elsewhere as being the biggest downside to bikers, specifically having fewer close combat attacks than a Tactical Squad, and that an extra close combat weapon would fix this.

[Hfran Morkai]

Space Wolves have Assault orientated bikers, the Swiftclaws. However they still represent new initiates into the Chapter as opposed to battle hardened brothers and they are completely unsubtle.

 

I feel the Ravenwing could do well if assault effectiveness was a little higher. ;)

[ValourousHeart]

Or alternatively if they had a set of rules that allowed them to duck out of CC before they get mauled or flee as a charge reaction.

 

What is wrong with making rules for Ravenwing that actually follow the fluff of them being a recon force?

 

Haven't any of you noticed that there are no stories of the heroic last stand of the Ravenwing.

The stories are always either how they were overwhelmed but evaded capture, regrouped, reengaged and brought in the Deathwing... or how they out smarted and out maneuvered a larger force and were able to pick it apart at the seams.

 

It is almost like you want our codex to read.... "Surrounded and outclassed yet again, the beleaguered Deathwing assume the position that is far to familiar for them and await the inevitable. But wait. What is that? Just there at the horizon, could it be? Dare we chance to hope! Yes!! Our dark brethren here to liberate us. Hooray the Ravenwing have arrived."

[MadDoc]

@ValourousHeart - +1

[Hexenes]

Or alternatively if they had a set of rules that allowed them to duck out of CC before they get mauled or flee as a charge reaction.

 

Actually... Waaaay back in 2nd Ed. days, all bikes could make hit an run attacks. Meaning they could, for example, move 2", engage a model in cc, move 2", engage a model in cc, and so on to their max move distance, all without getting locked in combat.

 

To illustrate:

I had a buddy of mine that played Orks and always did massive Gretchin screen (50-100 Gretchin, 2 deep at most) in a straight line across his front. Shortly after Codex:Angels of Death came out, I took a five man bike squad single file down the line, boppin' his little Gretchin on their heads, taking out half his line in a single turn.

.

So, if Ravenwing could do something like that, without getting locked in cc, it would make for a pretty scary and unique Fast Attack unit.

[ValourousHeart]

I wasn't thinking of us bashing our way through the enemy lines... I was thinking something along the lines of the FLEE charge reaction that WFB has.

 

I thought it would be something like a fall back move or a special hit and run, but that took place at the beginning of combat (maybe not at I10 but well before I4) instead of at the end.

 

I can see quickening and eldar banshees going getting their attacks in before we speed past.... but I also see that we are moving so fast that even an exceptionally fast persons (SM Captain) or even a person with a long stick (GK Halberd) might not be able to react quick enough.

 

Take some test... if passed fall back any direction 3D6... enemy gets to consolidate D6... bad news if D6 is equal to or greater than 3D6 roll (wiped out maybe... as we are drug from bikes).

If failed fight in combat... maybe with a penalty (perhaps we just keep fearless... that has been a pretty good penalty for getting caught in CC so far).

 

Alternatively this could even be a USR for all bikes in 6th ed.

Evade... 4++ save in CC if they moved in their last movement phase.

RW get to re-roll this.

[Hemal]

A Ravenwing Dragoons / Knights unit has been oft-mooted and TBH I think such a unit would be an elites category in a RW-only army - or unlocked by Sammy...

[shabbadoo]

Or alternatively if they had a set of rules that allowed them to duck out of CC before they get mauled or flee as a charge reaction.

 

Actually... Waaaay back in 2nd Ed. days, all bikes could make hit an run attacks. Meaning they could, for example, move 2", engage a model in cc, move 2", engage a model in cc, and so on to their max move distance, all without getting locked in combat.

 

To illustrate:

I had a buddy of mine that played Orks and always did massive Gretchin screen (50-100 Gretchin, 2 deep at most) in a straight line across his front. Shortly after Codex:Angels of Death came out, I took a five man bike squad single file down the line, boppin' his little Gretchin on their heads, taking out half his line in a single turn.

.

So, if Ravenwing could do something like that, without getting locked in cc, it would make for a pretty scary and unique Fast Attack unit.

What you are referring to is basically a drive-by attack, though it as indeed called a "hit and run attack" in 2E. Those old rules allowed one to move a bike along side enemy models during its entire move, such that each model moved next to would initiate an immediate close combat. Each model would roll one attack dice against each other, regardless of stats, with the bike always having the benefit of better Initiative. A biker couldn't fire any guns if conducting this sort of move.

 

For those unfamiliar with the 2E rules for close combat, this is how they worked:

 

Roll your attack dice and add your WS to the highest result rolled. Additional "6's" beyond a first "6" added +1 to the total; any "1's" rolled added -1 to the total. Whoever scored higher would hit the other model a number of times equal to the difference in the totals. If the die rolls were tied, the tie went to the model with the higher Initiative score and so the other model would be hit once.

 

Then you rolled to wound and made saves as normal. Simple enough, but close combat between lots of models took FOREVER. There are some other rules for 2E close combat too, but that covers the core mechanic for 2E close combat so far as this sort of drive-by bike attack is concerned.

 

This is a very different from the current Hit-and Run rules. I do believe that somebody put for the idea of a turbo-boosting drive-by attack similar to this(probably only against a single model though, not any number of models along the path of the bike's move). It is certainly one viable option. Not sure if it is fully warranted though, as all bikers are recon forces(because they are riding bikes and can outpace infantry) and could potentially make such an attack. I think the issue with bikes has more to do with their cost and their core rules, rather than anything else.

[Brother_Darius]

A Ravenwing Dragoons / Knights unit has been oft-mooted and TBH I think such a unit would be an elites category in a RW-only army - or unlocked by Sammy...

 

I believe that we have also agreed that the ravening will have their own unique Command squad. Giving that unit some CC ability I think would be appropriate.

[Bryan Blaire]

Actually, there is something similar to a heroic last stand by Ravenwing members in the Purging of Kadillus, IIRC. Need to re-read that book again to check "modern" fluff.

[Brother Moridius]

What about giving the boys in black a drive by attack similar to what the dark eldar jetbikes have? Cant remember the rule exactly all I know is that it sucks when you have your guys in a nice line and 5 bikes turbo boost over the entire thing from the side...

[Droma]

What about giving the boys in black a drive by attack similar to what the dark eldar jetbikes have? Cant remember the rule exactly all I know is that it sucks when you have your guys in a nice line and 5 bikes turbo boost over the entire thing from the side...

 

They have that rule because they are jetbikes, normal bikes can't go through enemy models.

 

@valoursheart

 

Yes the Ravenwing scout when on hunts for the fallen but they are generally used as fast outriders ahead and around the main dark angels advance as can be seen from the purging of kallidus book. Also in that book they do heroically charge the ork lines in order to create a distraction so namaan and his scouts can move through the ork lines. You've also gota figure on the sheer fear factor that a marine barreling down on you driving 2 tons of metal guns blazing with his power sword humming ready to just cut through your lines would be like. Between crushing people under bike treads and hacking them apart with chainswords and power weapons a close combat oriented biker let alone an entire squad of them would be devastating as line breakers against almost any enemy the dark angels would be facing baring maybe monstrous creatures.

[Hemal]

2 tonnes of metal? My dad's Jag is barely 2 tonnes....

[Brother_Darius]

But in the Purging novel they are not demonstrating any new skill. They are simply just simply going in to tie up a unit. Something that they can already do well as a toughness 5 unit.

 

If you wanted to give them a very slight CC nod and also recognize the past kniightdom, I guess you could give one unit something similar to what the Tallarn Roughriders have. Also keep in mind many its very likely that the Ravening will be getting. 'Hit and Run" as a basic skill. So all of this will be on top of them having the Hit and Run rule

[Bryan Blaire]

I was simply refuting the "there are no stories of the heroic last stand of the Ravenwing" comment. There is at least one, regardless of whether it exhibited new skill or not. Also, if the idea is that "scouts" don't need CC prowess, why do initiates get the option of a bolter or more CC oriented weapons, and the sniper rifles are an upgrade? It's all in the choice of design how they can be used.

 

Why would all the Ravenwing get hit and run? I haven't seen or heard any rumors that this will appear in the next Codex... As already indicated, all bikes used to have something along the lines of a drive-by or hit-and-run style attack, and no other SM bikes have gotten it.

[Brother_Darius]

Why would all the Ravenwing get hit and run? I haven't seen or heard any rumors that this will appear in the next Codex... As already indicated, all bikes used to have something along the lines of a drive-by or hit-and-run style attack, and no other SM bikes have gotten it.

 

I was not speaking of the next GW DA Dex, I was referring to Project Unforgiven.

 

Of course no other SM bikes have it. No other SM do what we do with our bikes.