vindcare assassins

[thade]

The previous (and I guess I should say final) DH codex actually directly referred to those variant chapters (BA, DA, BT, etc) saying they were allowed for the purposes of the allies rule. The BT codex also speaks to this, if memory serves, stating that the Grey Knights are the only psykers that they will work with.

 

I mean...you're flat out wrong, man. :D

 

Except, you're flat out wrong, man.

 

They're BOTH Space Marine Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes and they work for the Ordo Malleus.

 

And now, allow me to blow your mind. Not all Space Marines are Adeptus Astartes, and that is what I was speaking to.

 

Adeptus Astartes is an organization with its own power structure and its own place in the Imperium's power structure.

 

A Space Marine is a genetically and technologically enhanced super soldier.

 

Is a Grey Knight a Space Marine? Aye, in that he's physically crafted in the same way (albeit the processes are more rigorous, more refined, and more selective). However, a Grey Knight is not Adeptus Astartes. A Grey Knight is a part of the Ordo Malleus; a branch of the Inquisition with its own power structure and its own place in the Imperium's power structure.

[Angelis Mortis]

dswanick's simple solution #452 : Play a 2,000pt+ game and field at least 2 HQs and 4 Troops and call them 2 seperate detachments per the BRB, Pg.87. Then you can field 2X each assassin...

 

Still not allowed. Read page 49 of BRB. You can only field one unique per Army period. It can 500pts, it can 5 FOCS at 10k pts, irrelevant. One unique per Army. The only exception is Apocalypse rules.

Last line of the Multiple detachment games section :

Each detachment will be a seperate army, using its own force organiztion chart.

So, completely allowed - if the players agree to play a multi-detachment game.

 

So then by your interpretation, you can have one Marneus Calgar per detachment then? Even though it specifically cites the rule to be there to prevent this. Sorry, still no-ahh-ahh. Unique means unique, it doesn't mean simply rare.

 

In addition, your interpretation only applies to each detachment using its own FOC. It still regards all the detachments as one army as stated earlier in that same paragraph.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's lucky then that the ally rules state;

 

Space Marines, including variant armies

 

The Grey Knights are, like the Salamanders and Blood Angels;

 

other loyalist Index Astartes Chapters

 

They are Index Astartes Chapter 666.

 

Page 6 Grey Knight Codex;

 

Designated Chapter 666, the Grey Knights appeared amongst the growing roster of Space Marines

 

Page 12;

 

As with other Space Marine Chapters, Grey Knights are...

 

Can we now end the debate of whtehr the new GK Codex is a viable open to ally too, until the old WH 'dex is made redundant come next WD?

 

Does anyone really want to argue that the Grey Knights aren't;

 

1) Space Marines

2) Index Astartes Chapter 666

 

Really?

 

Edit: As for the 'uniqueness' of the WH Vindicare and the GK Vindicare, not only are they two distinctly separate units, with separate stats, wargear and rules, the GK version is a unit called "Assassins / Vindcare Assassin" while the DH/WH version is called "Officio Assassinorum Operative" where "Vindicare Temple Assassin" is an option for that Officio Assassinorum Operative unit.

 

Two different units.

 

The restrictions and uniqueness of one *cannot* be applied to the other.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The easier and debate-free way to field more than a vindicare is Apocalypse. As Apoc rulebook says this "game variant" ignores any 0-1,0-2 or other similar limitation. See Apocalypse rule book page 18.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This won't even be worth discussing in terms of fielding two of the same assassins (albeit from different books) as soon as the next WD hits the streets as the WH codex will become defunct... And actually it's already the case now as GW has already said as much on their website. So maybe if you're lucky you can still do it for a few more days if you're able to find someone who'll use your own house rules.

 

G :P

[thade]

I tried to make that point before, B.O., but they didn't swallow it. :P It's funny, as it makes the entire goal here moot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Kind of funny in a silly way to hear a RAW advocate looking to use their own house rule. ;)

 

G :pirate:

[Angelis Mortis]

It's lucky then that the ally rules state;

 

Space Marines, including variant armies

 

The Grey Knights are, like the Salamanders and Blood Angels;

 

other loyalist Index Astartes Chapters

 

They are Index Astartes Chapter 666.

 

Page 6 Grey Knight Codex;

 

Designated Chapter 666, the Grey Knights appeared amongst the growing roster of Space Marines

 

Page 12;

 

As with other Space Marine Chapters, Grey Knights are...

 

Can we now end the debate of whtehr the new GK Codex is a viable open to ally too, until the old WH 'dex is made redundant come next WD?

 

Does anyone really want to argue that the Grey Knights aren't;

 

1) Space Marines

2) Index Astartes Chapter 666

 

Really?

 

Edit: As for the 'uniqueness' of the WH Vindicare and the GK Vindicare, not only are they two distinctly separate units, with separate stats, wargear and rules, the GK version is a unit called "Assassins / Vindcare Assassin" while the DH/WH version is called "Officio Assassinorum Operative" where "Vindicare Temple Assassin" is an option for that Officio Assassinorum Operative unit.

 

Two different units.

 

The restrictions and uniqueness of one *cannot* be applied to the other.

 

All that is lovely and all but you still seem to be missing the relevant point. The WH rules when referring to "index astartes chapters" are referring to chapters made using the Codex:Space Marine. Grey Kights use Codex: Grey Knights, so again, you can not ally WH to GK. Sorry, no-ahh-ahh.

[dswanick]

So then by your interpretation, you can have one Marneus Calgar per detachment then? Even though it specifically cites the rule to be there to prevent this. Sorry, still no-ahh-ahh. Unique means unique, it doesn't mean simply rare.

 

In addition, your interpretation only applies to each detachment using its own FOC. It still regards all the detachments as one army as stated earlier in that same paragraph.

Still incorrect, the FOC part of the sentence is not a qualifier it's an clarification. It doesn't say "Each detachment is a seperate army only for the purposes of the Force Organiztion Chart", it's saying "Each detachment is a seperate army. And yes, as such, each seperate army gets its own F.O.C.". Your interpretation would have two players in a team format game required to field detachments from the same codex, and limited by each others unique choices. Your logic could also be taken further and require that two opposing players who field the same army would not both be able to field a unique unit : ie. two Ultramarine players facing off wouldn't both be able to field a Marneus Calgar. It also flies in the face of "counts-as" gaming - perhaps I'm fielding a detachment of Ubermarines led by their chapter master Maximus Kellog and a detachment of Awesomarines led by their chapter master Mario Cilmoar. Both forces are Ultramarines successors and both CMs "count as" Marneus Calgar.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Most team tourneys have rules in terms of what you can field. Rarely if ever have I seen one where both team mates can field the same special characters.

 

G ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

In both my OP in this thread, and my last post (before this one) I mention this is only valid until the new SoB 'dex.

 

And house rule? It's all RAW.

 

All that is lovely and all but you still seem to be missing the relevant point. The WH rules when referring to "index astartes chapters" are referring to chapters made using the Codex:Space Marine. Grey Kights use Codex: Grey Knights, so again, you can not ally WH to GK. Sorry, no-ahh-ahh.

 

Like the actually mentioned in the rule itself Black Templars and Blood Angels?

 

They aren't made from the Codex: Space Marine dex.

 

(Edit: Unless the Ally rules for the old WH 'dex is different to the old DH dex. I'm assuming it isn't, but haven't got the WH 'dex here to check.)

[Angelis Mortis]

In both my OP in this thread, and my last post (before this one) I mention this is only valid until the new SoB 'dex.

 

And house rule? It's all RAW.

 

All that is lovely and all but you still seem to be missing the relevant point. The WH rules when referring to "index astartes chapters" are referring to chapters made using the Codex:Space Marine. Grey Kights use Codex: Grey Knights, so again, you can not ally WH to GK. Sorry, no-ahh-ahh.

 

Like the actually mentioned in the rule itself Black Templars and Blood Angels?

 

They aren't made from the Codex: Space Marine dex.

 

(Edit: Unless the Ally rules for the old WH 'dex is different to the old DH dex. I'm assuming it isn't, but haven't got the WH 'dex here to check.)

 

Exactly my point. They are specifically mentioned AND includes Codex Astartes Chapters (ie, C:SM). So, for you to be correct, it would have to mention BA, DA, BT, SW, and GK and C:SM chapters. It does nothing of the sort.

[Chengar Qordath]

(Edit: Unless the Ally rules for the old WH 'dex is different to the old DH dex. I'm assuming it isn't, but haven't got the WH 'dex here to check.)

Just pulled out my WH Codex to check; the part on Space Marine Chapters is the same (specifically mentioning that you can ally to any variant chapter, not just ones out of Codex:SM)

 

Exactly my point. They are specifically mentioned AND includes Codex Astartes Chapters (ie, C:SM). So, for you to be correct, it would have to mention BA, DA, BT, SW, and GK and C:SM chapters. It does nothing of the sort.

That would only apply if the list was exhaustive, which it very explicitly isn't. Read the actual allies rules; it very explicitly states that it includes any other Loyalist Space Marine in addition to the listed examples.

[Angelis Mortis]

So then by your interpretation, you can have one Marneus Calgar per detachment then? Even though it specifically cites the rule to be there to prevent this. Sorry, still no-ahh-ahh. Unique means unique, it doesn't mean simply rare.

 

In addition, your interpretation only applies to each detachment using its own FOC. It still regards all the detachments as one army as stated earlier in that same paragraph.

Still incorrect, the FOC part of the sentence is not a qualifier it's an clarification. It doesn't say "Each detachment is a seperate army only for the purposes of the Force Organiztion Chart", it's saying "Each detachment is a seperate army. And yes, as such, each seperate army gets its own F.O.C.". Your interpretation would have two players in a team format game required to field detachments from the same codex, and limited by each others unique choices. Your logic could also be taken further and require that two opposing players who field the same army would not both be able to field a unique unit : ie. two Ultramarine players facing off wouldn't both be able to field a Marneus Calgar. It also flies in the face of "counts-as" gaming - perhaps I'm fielding a detachment of Ubermarines led by their chapter master Maximus Kellog and a detachment of Awesomarines led by their chapter master Mario Cilmoar. Both forces are Ultramarines successors and both CMs "count as" Marneus Calgar.

 

No I'm exactly correct. You took the last line totally out of context. In context its exactly as I described. It Rules As Written, not Rules As Wanted.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, so anyone still have any RAW issues with;

 

1) Grey Knights are a Space Marine variant army.

 

2) Grey Knights are a loyalist Index Astartes Chapter.

 

3) The Assassin / Vindicare Assassin unit from C:GK is utterly different (in every way) to the Officio Assassinorum Operative from Codex DH/WH, and therefore can't be bound by any of its restrictions or uniqueness.

 

Any RAW objections at all?

 

Or can we just concede that until the SoB dex is out in its entirety, you could, if you so wished, ally a WH Inquisitor and WH Officio Assassinorum Operative to a GK parent list running a Vindicare?

[Angelis Mortis]

OK, so anyone still have any RAW issues with;

 

1) Grey Knights are a Space Marine variant army.

 

No they are not.

 

2) Grey Knights are a loyalist Index Astartes Chapter.

 

No they are not.

 

3) The Assassin / Vindicare Assassin unit from C:GK is utterly different (in every way) to the Officio Assassinorum Operative from Codex DH/WH, and therefore can't be bound by any of its restrictions or uniqueness.

 

Yes it is, its 0-1 in the WH codex.

 

 

 

Or can we just concede that until the SoB dex is out in its entirety, you could, if you so wished, ally a WH Inquisitor and WH Officio Assassinorum Operative to a GK parent list running a Vindicare?

 

No, you can not. Simply repeating your defeated points over and over does not make them valid, they are still wrong.

[thade]

He wants them very badly to be a Codex Astartes army...despite the fact they are so far divergent from Codex Astartes as to make even the Black Templars balk (if they would balk at anything).

 

They are a Chapter (organized group) of Space Marines (genetic and technologically enhanced super soldiers), but they are not Index Astartes, they are not Adeptus Astartes. They are Ordo Malleus.

 

Actually, funny thing. We discuss the Grey Knights in the Ordos Inquisition forum. NOT THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES FORUM.

 

Weird, right? Probably unrelated.

[Chengar Qordath]

He wants them very badly to be a Codex Astartes army...despite the fact they are so far divergent from Codex Astartes as to make even the Black Templars balk (if they would balk at anything).

 

They are a Chapter (organized group) of Space Marines (genetic and technologically enhanced super soldiers), but they are not Index Astartes, they are not Adeptus Astartes. They are Ordo Malleus.

 

Actually, funny thing. We discuss the Grey Knights in the Ordos Inquisition forum. NOT THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES FORUM.

 

Weird, right? Probably unrelated.

The WH Codex doesn't say they have to be Adeptus Astartes, or follow the Codex Astartes, just that they have to be Space Marines.

[Brother Valerius]

He wants them very badly to be a Codex Astartes army...despite the fact they are so far divergent from Codex Astartes as to make even the Black Templars balk (if they would balk at anything).

 

They are a Chapter (organized group) of Space Marines (genetic and technologically enhanced super soldiers), but they are not Index Astartes, they are not Adeptus Astartes. They are Ordo Malleus.

 

Actually, funny thing. We discuss the Grey Knights in the Ordos Inquisition forum. NOT THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES FORUM.

 

Weird, right? Probably unrelated.

The WH Codex doesn't say they have to be Adeptus Astartes, or follow the Codex Astartes, just that they have to be Space Marines.

 

Exactly. You guys who keep going on about the Adeptus Astartes, Codex Astartes, and Codex: Space Marines are just being silly. All it talks about is "Space Marines", the rest is your invention.

[Gentlemanloser]

You guys are gonna have to provide some actual book RAW.

 

Just throwing out "no" with nothing to back it up is nothing but your opinion, where as I'm actually showing book rules (Edit: Yes, 'rules' is a little too strong here, but I'm not going down the glossary route again. We all know there is no specific rule stating "This is a Space Marine army", just as much as there's no specific Race: Eldar rule to work with Prefered Enemy: Eldar.)

 

No they are not.

 

Codex Grey Knights (you know, our actual Codex...) disagree with you. I've posted two quotes from it.

 

No they are not.

 

Codex Grey Knights (you know, our actual Codex...) disagree with you. I've posted two quotes from it.

 

Yes it is, its 0-1 in the WH codex.

 

Different unit to the Unit in the GK Codex. Come on, this is simple.

 

He wants them very badly to be a Codex Astartes army...despite the fact they are so far divergent from Codex Astartes as to make even the Black Templars balk (if they would balk at anything).

 

They are a Chapter (organized group) of Space Marines (genetic and technologically enhanced super soldiers), but they are not Index Astartes, they are not Adeptus Astartes. They are Ordo Malleus.

 

They are a Space Marine army. Our Codex even states this. They are a Chapter of the Index Astartes. Our Codex even states this.

 

So where's your RAW to back your opinion?

 

Edit: Just to hammer the point home, as above, the Ally rules say *nothing* about Codex adherence, or having to be. It lists a number of Codex Divergent chapters specifically.

 

Edit2: The only vaguely interesting point of discussion here is Coteaz. But I'll let someone else start that off! :cuss

[Morollan]

I have to say, Gentlemanloser is the only person here who seems to be basing his argument on anything other than opinion. I'd like to see some RAW on the other side of the argument. The rest of the 'argument' puts me in mind of a certain Monty Python sketch.

 

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

No it isn't!

Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".

Yes it is!

[dswanick]

No I'm exactly correct. You took the last line totally out of context. In context its exactly as I described. It Rules As Written, not Rules As Wanted.

Well then, we can agree to disagree - but I stand by my interpretation of the Rule As Written.

[Angelis Mortis]

He wants them very badly to be a Codex Astartes army...despite the fact they are so far divergent from Codex Astartes as to make even the Black Templars balk (if they would balk at anything).

 

They are a Chapter (organized group) of Space Marines (genetic and technologically enhanced super soldiers), but they are not Index Astartes, they are not Adeptus Astartes. They are Ordo Malleus.

 

Actually, funny thing. We discuss the Grey Knights in the Ordos Inquisition forum. NOT THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES FORUM.

 

Weird, right? Probably unrelated.

The WH Codex doesn't say they have to be Adeptus Astartes, or follow the Codex Astartes, just that they have to be Space Marines.

 

No, it very specifically says they must be "index astartes" in which "index, codex same dif". The words mean the same thing. Grey Knights do not in any way use Codex Astartes Space Marine rules. They have their own book. The Space Marine chapters allowed were specifically listed (ie, Black Templars and such).

 

And the point about GK being in the Ordo Malleus forum (which it has been for years now, at least 6 I can think of) further demonstrates that this was the idea from the release of Daemonhunters codex. You guys are trying to re-write rules and history.

 

I have to say, Gentlemanloser is the only person here who seems to be basing his argument on anything other than opinion. I'd like to see some RAW on the other side of the argument. The rest of the 'argument' puts me in mind of a certain Monty Python sketch.

 

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

No it isn't!

Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".

Yes it is!

 

 

Perhaps you should read posts before his maybe. Our points were clearly made and backed up, thats why they are not being repeated when he starts with the "yes they are, no they aren't" line of debate. Gentlemenloser cherry picking quotes out of context is hardly evidence.

[Chengar Qordath]

No, it very specifically says they must be "index astartes" in which "index, codex same dif". The words mean the same thing.

No, they really don't.

 

I guess you're not familiar with the old Index Astartes rules GW used to put out. Also of note, the Grey Knights were in the Index Astartes books at one point.

[Morollan]

Perhaps you should read posts before his maybe. Our points were clearly made and backed up, thats why they are not being repeated when he starts with the "yes they are, no they aren't" line of debate. Gentlemenloser cherry picking quotes out of context is hardly evidence.

 

Gentlemanloser has provided very clear RAW evidence to back up his point but I'm afraid you have yet to do so. Post #40 in particular requires rather more refutation that "No it isn't" etc, which seems to have been your only response to it. You claim to have defeated his arguments elsewhere but I don't see that at all upon (re)reading the topic.

 

Incidentally, I don't actually think anyone should be trying to squeeze an extra Vindicare into their army but the argument still exists that in RAW, it is possible to do so, at least for the next couple of weeks.