vindcare assassins

[Gentlemanloser]

you could also look to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter as to what a Chapter means.

 

A Chapter is a self-contained Space Marine army

 

The Adeptus Astartes is divided into roughly a thousand Chapters

 

Of which the Grey Kngihts are number 666.

 

Some of these may be 'Codex' adherant

 

A so-called 'Codex Chapter', meaning a Chapter which closely follows the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, is made up of ten companies, each consisting of one hundred Marines and commanded by an officer with the rank of Captain. Generally, the First Company is made up of the Chapter's most experienced veterans, while the second through ninth consist of more ordinary warriors. Some individual companies are specialised assault or support companies, possessing larger proportions of Assault or Devastator Squads. The tenth company is a Scout force, made up of aspiring Space Marines not yet proven in battle.

 

Of which the Grey Knights (like the black Templars or Space wolves) are not.

 

Luckilty for us to ally to the WH, you *do not* have to be a 'Codex Chapter'.

 

What you need to be is Loyalist Index Astartes.

 

The fictive Index Astartes is a large book cataloguing the "names and honours" of the thousand Space Marine Chapters ever since the First Founding. It is kept in the Great Librarium on Terra and is described as "the most honoured record in the Imperium".1

 

Again, the Grey Knights are the Loyalist Chapter 666 of the Index Astartes.

 

The Index Astartes contains *all* the Space Marines Chapters, whether they are a 'Codex Chapter' or Divergent.

 

Again, the Grey Knights are not only a Loyalist Index Astartes army, they are also a Space Marine army.

 

For Clarity, there are not a 'Codex Chapter', but then for the purpose of allying with the WH, they don't need to be.

 

Hopefully this will end this line of discussion, unless someone wants to open the slightly more interesting problem of Coteaz.

[thade]

Adeptus Astartes and Ordo Malleus are two separate organizations. I already conceded they're a chapter of Space Marines (i.e. an organized group of Imperium super soldiers), but they're not Index Astartes. <3

 

We're quibbling over definitions at this point, which is madness. Go read the Lexicanum entry on Ordo Malleus, maybe that will help.

[Angelis Mortis]

you could also look to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter as to what a Chapter means.

 

A Chapter is a self-contained Space Marine army

 

The Adeptus Astartes is divided into roughly a thousand Chapters

 

Of which the Grey Kngihts are number 666.

 

Some of these may be 'Codex' adherant

 

A so-called 'Codex Chapter', meaning a Chapter which closely follows the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, is made up of ten companies, each consisting of one hundred Marines and commanded by an officer with the rank of Captain. Generally, the First Company is made up of the Chapter's most experienced veterans, while the second through ninth consist of more ordinary warriors. Some individual companies are specialised assault or support companies, possessing larger proportions of Assault or Devastator Squads. The tenth company is a Scout force, made up of aspiring Space Marines not yet proven in battle.

 

Of which the Grey Knights (like the black Templars or Space wolves) are not.

 

Luckilty for us to ally to the WH, you *do not* have to be a 'Codex Chapter'.

 

What you need to be is Loyalist Index Astartes.

 

The fictive Index Astartes is a large book cataloguing the "names and honours" of the thousand Space Marine Chapters ever since the First Founding. It is kept in the Great Librarium on Terra and is described as "the most honoured record in the Imperium".1

 

Again, the Grey Knights are the Loyalist Chapter 666 of the Index Astartes.

 

The Index Astartes contains *all* the Space Marines Chapters, whether they are a 'Codex Chapter' or Divergent.

 

Again, the Grey Knights are not only a Loyalist Index Astartes army, they are also a Space Marine army.

 

For Clarity, there are not a 'Codex Chapter', but then for the purpose of allying with the WH, they don't need to be.

 

Hopefully this will end this line of discussion, unless someone wants to open the slightly more interesting problem of Coteaz.

 

 

Again, all thats fine and dandy, you seem to overlookt he fact that it says they were founded in secret and any records that were made were removed. Therefore, they are not in the index and NOT an index chapter. As stated time and again. You keep making points, omitting part of what you read, are corrected, then you reword you point. IT STILL ISN'T TRUE. No matter how you reword it.

[thade]

"Not in the Index" is really the issue.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, they were included. Let me quote the relevant part form our Dex.

 

At this time, the mighty Space Marine Legions were in the process of being separated into Chapters according to the precepts of the Codex Astartes. Much of the process of the Second Founding was being carried out at the direction of the newly formed Inquisition and was in turn overseen by those same lords who left Terra with Malcador some years earlier. It was a simple task for them to include the Grey Knights amongst the growing roster of Space Marine Chapters, bestowing upon them the designation Chapter 666 - an oddity, as at the time, there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned. Few other details ever became a matter of record, and most of these were erased form the archives within a century.

 

The Record/Archive of the Space Marine Chapters is the Index Astartes.

 

The Grey Knights *are* an Index Astartes Chapter. Not *all* Information of them was removed/erased.

 

Yes, they are the Chamber Millitant of the Ordo Malleus. This does not stop them *also* being a Space Marine Chapter of the Index Astartes.

 

And I really must insist that if you reply, you provide some canon references to back your opinions, as not only are they incorrect, you are not providing any support for them in the slightest.

 

You keep making points, omitting part of what you read, are corrected, then you reword you point. IT STILL ISN'T TRUE. No matter how you reword it.

 

Reword what? If anything's reworded it's to try to clarify. *Not a single point I've made* has been 'corrected'.

 

We're quibbling over definitions at this point, which is madness. Go read the Lexicanum entry on Ordo Malleus, maybe that will help.

 

It isn't a definition this time mate.

 

Let's follow the relevant paths in the Lex;

 

Ordo Malleus;

 

Known colloquially as Daemonhunters, the members of the Ordo Malleus are individuals of great strength of will, able to face the agents of Chaos without flinching. The strength of the inquisitors of the Ordo is bolstered by their Chamber Militant, the Grey Knights.

 

Chamber Militant;

 

Chamber Militant refers to the militant arm of an Inquisitorial order. Although an Inquisitor can employ the military services of any military force in the Imperium, the Chamber Militant is part of the Inquisition and represents the most dedicated, experienced, and effective forces the Ordo can call on.

The Ordo Malleus' Chamber Militant are the Grey Knights.

 

Grey Knights;

 

The Grey Knights are a Space Marines Chapter and the Chamber Militant for the Ordo Malleus. The Chapter specialises in the hunting and extermination of Chaos daemons.

 

Note the and ;)

 

I've already quoted the Chapter section above, no need to make this post larger by needlessly including it again.

 

Adeptus Astartes;

 

The Adeptus Astartes (commonly known as Space Marines, and colloquially as Angels of Death) are the most elite and feared fighting forces of the Imperium.

 

Space Marines and Adeptus Astartes are an interchangeable label. You agree that Grey Knights are Space Marines. That also makes them Adeptus Astartes.

[thade]

I mean...I hate to invoke the whole "Ward - while a decent rules writer - is a dodgy author"-thing...but...well, Ward is a decent rules writer but a dodgy author. You're highlighting a contradiction. They are both accounted for in the records and...completely unknown except to very few others. Very few others being, like, the Ordo Malleus inquistion force, the higher ups in the First Founding Chapters (Logan Grimnar and likely a few of his oldest wolves; the Black Templar; likely the DA and the Ultras)...and that's it. Virtually everybody that encounters the GK are mind-wiped, killed en masse, or both.

 

So, which is it? Are they in the records? Or aren't they?

 

Fluff that's older than Ward (and the new Codex, which is in a world where the Blood Angels and the Necrons join forces under Dante) maintains that they are Ordo Malleus and essentially don't exist.

 

So we're at a fluff impasse. It happens. What I really question here are your motivations. If you like and approve of the new direction the fluff is going in, well...that's cool. I respectfully agree to disagree. <3 If you are trying to use the new fluff to justify taking a second Vindicare in a GK list, well...that's what I really oppose. Bottom line: TOs all over are forbidding WH to be taken as allies to anyone, and the new codex doesn't even have the allies rule in it. That age is over.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I don't really like Wards fluff (or his ability to write rules! :P), and I totally agree that (compounded by different authors) the knowledge of the Grey Knights, and Daemons as a whole, is inconsistent.

 

But, I disagree there's any contradiction here.

 

Regardless of anyone remembering or knowing of the Grey Knights, they still remain a Space Marine Chapter, Space Marines (or Adeptus Astartes), Loyalist and part of the Index Astartes. If you're a Space Marines chapter, you're in the Index Astartes.

 

I also disagree that this has any implications with them being the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. They are both, and there's no problem with that.

 

While bought up by the Ally rules, these shouldn't really be in question. You can't be a Space Marine of Chapter 666 unless your an Adeptus Astarte in the Index Astartes.

 

I also disagree with the implications I've been house rulling anything, or that the information I provided at the start of this thread is incorrect.

 

You *can* ally a WH Vindicare to a GK army with a GK Vindicare. That's the rules. By the by, I've got no problems with this, as the old Vindicare is utterly underwhelming, and if you *really* want to waste an Elite/HQ slot to unlock him, then another Elite slot to use him, be my guest...

 

Now, if you really want to debate something, let's start asking if a Coteaz army (which until the new SoB, unless you can do something like take a Krrot HQ in a Tau army, is in a unique position in 40k...) with troop henchmen (and not a single GK unit) is actually a 'Grey Knight' army?

 

That's the interesting topic here. :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GL your whole argument is based on your house rule you have made up. It really cracks me too since you go to such lengths to portray yourself a RAWist. It's so darn funny to see what you say when the rules don't suit your needs. ;)

 

G :P

[Gentlemanloser]

What house rule?

 

I've quoted Codex for as much as possible, and unlike any other argument in this thread backed myself with as much canon information as possible.

 

So please, what house rule? And what do *you* have to back your opinion?

[Chengar Qordath]

What house rule?

 

I've quoted Codex for as much as possible, and unlike any other argument in this thread backed myself with as much canon information as possible.

 

So please, what house rule? And what do *you* have to back your opinion?

Seconding this; the WH allies rules are listed quite plainly for all to see on page 25 of the WH codex.

[thade]

Seconding this; the WH allies rules are listed quite plainly for all to see on page 25 of the WH codex.

For what, the next month or so? <3

[Chengar Qordath]

Seconding this; the WH allies rules are listed quite plainly for all to see on page 25 of the WH codex.

For what, the next month or so? <3

Hey, it's still legal right now.

 

Then again, if the current WD codex doesn't impress next month, I'll just stick to running my homebrewed codex whenever I'm doing pickup games with my gaming group anyway, and I never really got much into the tournament scene.

[thade]

Hey, it's still legal right now.

Honestly, I have yet to see a TO allow it, and I'm pretty sure it would go over poorly at my clubs here (all of which frown on the usage of shenanigans to circumvent rules like this...best case you get made fun of horrendously...worst case, you'll have trouble finding further games). Like, infiltrating 30+ Kroot Warriors all along your opponent's table edge and auto-winning in Dawn of War deployment is legit...and whether or not you can Tank Shock onto the table is ambiguous (you can't start the Tank Shock! by rotating to face them if you're not on the table). Deploying your Kroot this way is a shenanigan. Its legal, but it breaks the fun of the game, and that's what I've really been arguing for here. Legal or not is largely irrelevant if the guy across the table from you is left with a bad taste in his mouth due this kind of thing.

 

Then again, if the current WD codex doesn't impress next month, I'll just stick to running my homebrewed codex whenever I'm doing pickup games with my gaming group anyway, and I never really got much into the tournament scene.

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules as that shifts the people to blame for lack of balance from GW to the guy across the table from you. Even if your codex is better balanced or even worse off for you than the published one, you can still be scrutinized.

 

If your local crew is cool with it and you don't travel or compete, it's a non-issue, of course. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules

 

And that's why I'm a RAWist. :)

[thade]

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules

 

And that's why I'm a RAWist. :)

No comment. <3

[KnowThyEnemy]

Hey, it's still legal right now.

Honestly, I have yet to see a TO allow it, and I'm pretty sure it would go over poorly at my clubs here (all of which frown on the usage of shenanigans to circumvent rules like this...best case you get made fun of horrendously...worst case, you'll have trouble finding further games). Like, infiltrating 30+ Kroot Warriors all along your opponent's table edge and auto-winning in Dawn of War deployment is legit...and whether or not you can Tank Shock onto the table is ambiguous (you can't start the Tank Shock! by rotating to face them if you're not on the table). Deploying your Kroot this way is a shenanigan. Its legal, but it breaks the fun of the game, and that's what I've really been arguing for here. Legal or not is largely irrelevant if the guy across the table from you is left with a bad taste in his mouth due this kind of thing.

 

Then again, if the current WD codex doesn't impress next month, I'll just stick to running my homebrewed codex whenever I'm doing pickup games with my gaming group anyway, and I never really got much into the tournament scene.

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules as that shifts the people to blame for lack of balance from GW to the guy across the table from you. Even if your codex is better balanced or even worse off for you than the published one, you can still be scrutinized.

 

If your local crew is cool with it and you don't travel or compete, it's a non-issue, of course. :)

 

 

second this, thade has hit the nail on the head. RAW, RAI, whatever you want to call it, The Most Important Rule will trump whatever you throw out. These debates are fun and all, but ultimately pointless. arguing that the vindicare in the WH dex is different than the vindicare in the GK dex is just plain dumb. really? they're different? they look pretty similar to me, and until the rules update for GK (i.e. the new dex) they were the same, no questions about it. this is yet another example of people trying to squeeze out an edge in a game meant to be FUN.

[Gentlemanloser]

An edge? Really? The new Vindicare is awesome, getting a second one of him, sure. That's levering for an advantage and being a B).

 

But look the same? Sure, they use the same mini, but other than that, rule wise, they are utterly different.

 

Different unit name, stats, special rules and wargear.

 

There's no way with a straight face you could claim they were both 'unique' so you could only have one of them.

 

(I also despise the 'Most Important Rule'. It's weak for a wargame company. I turn up to a game one night with mates and we dice off on whether my Falcions - quick example only, this has never happened - give +1A or +2. That night I win the dice off, and go smash faces hard. The next night I lose the dice off and my upgrades are overpriced for what I get, and I lose. deciding game balance on a 50/50 roll of the dice isn't my kind of strategy game.)

[thade]

I also despise the 'Most Important Rule'.

Man, this is so siggable it's not even funny; if only I had room. That real estate is precious though.

 

So, what you just said was, you despise that this game mandates that you use good humor and fun to balance out its shortcomings? You'd rather what then? Be permitted to exploit every loophole possible in what is admittedly not the most rock solid rule system ever? B)

 

I thought better of you, man.

 

EDIT: typo

 

EDIT: addendum

 

They are the same. They are Vindicare Assassins. One is from 3rd Edition. One is from 5th. That's the difference. A Space marine vet is still a space marine vet, despite the fact they removed the explicit upgrade "terminator honours" and built it into their profiles.

[Gentlemanloser]

I feel you have misunderstood.

 

For a games company, instead of;

 

1) Writing solid rules that work without ambiguity

 

2) Officially FAQing issues that crop up in a timely fashion

 

but 'handwaving' the problem away, is lazy design and bad game balance. I expect *much* better form a company that's actually charging the prices GW do, and not for example are a small fan based organisation giving their game away for free.

 

GW sohuldn't be able to slack off just becuase they say we can dice off.

 

We all know we can, and usually do, houserule anyway. And my stance on this has absolutely no bearing on the use of fun or good humour, or how I personally play.

 

I've seen the 'Most Important Rule' exploited and used to kill fun and good humour. It's not a magic cure all that GW should be able to, or allowed to, fall back on. It's *all* down to the players. I've had brilliant, awesome fun and good humoured games with WAAC players. I've had the same with other RAWists. I've had terrible games with those who wanted to dice off on everything that didn't go their own way.

 

End of the day, GW should be expected to fix thier shoddy rules, and there would be no need for the 'Most Important Rule'.

 

They are the same. They are Vindicare Assassins. One is from 3rd Edition. One is from 5th. That's the difference. A Space marine vet is still a space marine vet, despite the fact they removed the explicit upgrade "terminator honours" and built it into their profiles.

 

If you want to debate this, please go back to the earlier thread where I expanded on thier differences in deatil. There ar eno longer the same unit, in the slightest. *Nothing* about the two units is the same.

 

I'll not waste more space by reposting.

[KnowThyEnemy]

thade, you beat me to it of course. slow fingers B). as for you scenario, ill ignore the FAQ for this response (i was in the +2A camp, not because i wanted to run them but because i could see the previous logic of LC's being applied). i would like to think enough of the people who play this game are willing to hear your arguments on new rules that have a grey area (i would at least). talking out these rule issues is usually a nice debate and leads to a mutual understanding of the rule. if for some reason you both end up on the opposite side of the rules fence, a dice off is always a nice solution.

 

its my opinion you shouldn't do this everytime the same rule dispute comes up, especially between the same group of people. go off your majority, go off your dice roll, do whatever seems fair, but it all comes down to your opponent. if you can't agree on a rule issue, you don't have to play. better yet, before it comes to that, get an outside source to make a ruling for you (our common practice when it comes down to LoS, is he under the template or isn't he, etc etc). if you STILL can't agree, maybe its time to find a new group of playing partners. no one should be that stubborn in this game

[thade]

They're a model company. They sell models, and books that support the further sales of models. The rule set is just a medium by which they sell models. That has always been their MO. There are other companies that focus on the games they publish; GW really isn't one of them.

 

The thing that sells GW for me is the fluff - which is mind blowing and a parable, in my mind, whether they intended it to be or not. Also, the ubiquity of the models and the game itself means they're easy to get second hand, reasonably cheaply and in good shape, and it's easy to find places to play The same can't be said for games like Malifaux, Flames of War, and Warmachine/Hordes (though it seems like PP is finally picking up some steam).

 

All that said, it's possible that I'm wrong and that GW does take its ruleset very seriously. There's a good amount of evidence for this; the style that the 8th Ed. Fantasy rule book is written in leads me to believe they put a great deal of thought, work, and testing into the rules. However, this rule set is massive; given that the combinations for army lists you might see on a table is easily in the millions and when you factor in terrain the in-game situations literally approach infinite, there's just no plausible way they could test and find every single "bug" in their rules. Their rule set is like software. We are literally beta users.

 

The trouble is that their patch (FAQ) turnover is too slow; even with it speeding up of late, it's not fast enough to account for all the "bugs" that its considerably large user base is running across each week (and pointing out here). The game works well; it's not crashing all the time and its rare that a "bug" arises that arrests an entire game. For the ones that do, they put down a safety net that real software cannot do: one that says "We know this isn't perfect; honestly, we do. But the game is what you make of it, so we recommend doing whatever seems the most fair or fun. If you can't decide, roll off."

 

The Most Important Rule cannot be exploited, by its very definition. If you find someone exploiting it, I can show you someone who's actually breaking it. If it's only fun for one person, it's cheating. If it's fun for both people involved, even if it's stupid-broken, then it's legal. The key there being "fun for both people involved."

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules

 

And that's why I'm a RAWist. B)

 

Only when it helps your cause - whatever that might be at the time. ;)

 

Oh and rules lawyers always say that GW writes poor rules... which is not the case at all. Sure they could always be better but then again so could anything... anything at all.

 

G B)

[thade]

They are the same. They are Vindicare Assassins. One is from 3rd Edition. One is from 5th. That's the difference. A Space marine vet is still a space marine vet, despite the fact they removed the explicit upgrade "terminator honours" and built it into their profiles.

 

If you want to debate this, please go back to the earlier thread where I expanded on thier differences in deatil. There ar eno longer the same unit, in the slightest. *Nothing* about the two units is the same.

 

I'll not waste more space by reposting.

Then why did you? <3

 

This, my man, is why pure RAW will not avail you, or anyone. It's why I abandoned my pure RAW stance over the past year. It just doesn't work. If you try to adhere super hard to the letter of each rule and build your lists and game play around it, you will inevitably become frustrated.

 

Vindicare Assassins come from a specific Assassin Temple. The fact that the two models "have different stat lines" is actually not as important as the fact they share the same name. I can't cite a rule on that, other than the Most Important One.

[Gentlemanloser]

Still, that has no bearing on how *I* play, and I'd like folk to not assume personal stuff about me. I generally give the benefit of the doubt for ranges, who's under the template etc. I prefer a fun game that isn't bogged down by superfluous little rules niggles.

 

That still doesn't mean I think it's acceptable of GW to advocate fixing gaps in their badly written strategy game to a 50/50 dice off.

 

Even things like redeployment/scout moves should actually be officially FAQed and not left to a dice off. 50% of the time, your AWIYE is nulified by Eldrad. 50% of the time, it isn't.

 

Sure, you could take your house rule about the guy with first turn always takes redployment/scouts moves first. But then we're back tot he point about houserules and different gaming groups.

 

Vindicare Assassins come from a specific Assassin Temple. The fact that the two models "have different stat lines" is actually not as important as the fact they share the same name.

 

Please Thade, actually go back to my post.

 

They *don't* share the same name.

 

Only when it helps your cause - whatever that might be at the time.

 

Still avoiding explaining what House Rule it is I'm supposed to be using?

 

If it's fun for both people involved, even if it's stupid-broken, then it's legal. The key there being "fun for both people involved."

 

Apologies Thade, missed this entire post. B)

 

Fun it utterly subjective. One player might find their 'fun' in a strategy game being winning the scenario.

 

All that said, it's possible that I'm wrong and that GW does take its ruleset very seriously. There's a good amount of evidence for this;

 

I'd say the GK 'dex is evidence they don't. B) Badly playtested and edited. That we had as many issues with it as we did, before it was released, speaks volumes. We're not special, and if we picked those up, without even playtesting access, then the 'professional' at GW surely shold have, and fixed them, before the 'dex was released.

[thade]

They *don't* share the same name.

One is an assassin from the Vindicari temple. What's the other one?