vindcare assassins

[the jeske]

I've had terrible games with those who wanted to dice off on everything that didn't go their own way.

yeah . and rules wise the rule book also tells us we should always roll stuff out . So If i tell my opponent dudes are in the open and he says they are not we still have to roll , even if those dudes are 10" away from any form of terrain .

 

 

They are the same. They are Vindicare Assassins. One is from 3rd Edition. One is from 5th. That's the difference. A Space marine vet is still a space marine vet, despite the fact they removed the explicit upgrade "terminator honours" and built it into their profiles.

 

thade but you do remember that samed named units and gear still are different if they use different dex. If I would lets say add a unit of SoB in a rhino to an sm army the number of fire points would still be different . how long did the GK/BT/DA have different cylcons landspeeders , storm shields etc.

till the second part of the WH dex comes out taking a second assasin is legal . for 2 weeks . + why would anyone want to . you have to take a WH elite INQ to do it , then the weaker assasin . the cost would be bigger then taking a venerable rifle man .

[Chengar Qordath]

Hey, it's still legal right now.

Honestly, I have yet to see a TO allow it, and I'm pretty sure it would go over poorly at my clubs here (all of which frown on the usage of shenanigans to circumvent rules like this...best case you get made fun of horrendously...worst case, you'll have trouble finding further games). Like, infiltrating 30+ Kroot Warriors all along your opponent's table edge and auto-winning in Dawn of War deployment is legit...and whether or not you can Tank Shock onto the table is ambiguous (you can't start the Tank Shock! by rotating to face them if you're not on the table). Deploying your Kroot this way is a shenanigan. Its legal, but it breaks the fun of the game, and that's what I've really been arguing for here. Legal or not is largely irrelevant if the guy across the table from you is left with a bad taste in his mouth due this kind of thing.

True; I wouldn't ever try running a rules lawyer trick like that in a real game, for exactly that reason. Rule of fun takes priority.

 

Discussing it on a forum is fair game, though.

 

Then again, if the current WD codex doesn't impress next month, I'll just stick to running my homebrewed codex whenever I'm doing pickup games with my gaming group anyway, and I never really got much into the tournament scene.

A common rule set is important; it helps ensure that when you travel or move or try the game out with some new friends at a new scene, you're still playing the same game. Not everybody is cool with custom rules as that shifts the people to blame for lack of balance from GW to the guy across the table from you. Even if your codex is better balanced or even worse off for you than the published one, you can still be scrutinized.

 

If your local crew is cool with it and you don't travel or compete, it's a non-issue, of course. B)

Yeah, the locals are alright with it for casual games, and when I do travel or compete instead of just playing for fun I've got no issue with using the GW rules.

[thade]

+ why would anyone want to . you have to take a WH elite INQ to do it , then the weaker assasin . the cost would be bigger then taking a venerable rifle man .

Ah, the jeske. Ever the voice of reason in this insane world we live in.

 

It's funny that while we've all attacked this from the perspectives of fluff and fair-mindedness, nobody thought to point out that it's points-wise pretty dumb. I'm embarrassed.

 

Was hard for me to consider the points-value of each model compared, when I was confronted with bending rules to a pure advantage...which is a pet peeve of mine. There are people I've met in my short years of mini war gaming that I politely evade playing games with because they fit that very profile. They fall in the same bucket as players who taunt as they win and rage as they're losing. I don't mind if your list is meta'd like crazy, provided you 1. admit it's meta'd like crazy, and 2. are fun to game with regardless.

[Gentlemanloser]

(Also apologies if I'm confusing terms here. I'm using the Most Important Rule as the name for the dice off. If that's known as something else, I apologise for the confusion)

 

One is an assassin from the Vindicari temple. What's the other one?

 

OK, I'll repost. But it's all there above.

 

WH/DH: Unit Name - Officio Assassinorum Operative. (This unit has an option called Vindicare Temple Assassin. That is not the units name.)

 

GK: Unit Name - Assassin (from The Army of Titan section), Vindicare Assassin (from the Grey Knight Army List section)

 

Neither are the same.

 

yeah . and rules wise the rule book also tells us we should always roll stuff out . So If i tell my opponent dudes are in the open and he says they are not we still have to roll , even if those dudes are 10" away from any form of terrain .

 

Exactly. And extreme form of ^_^, and one that would guarantee I'd never play them again. But that's the sort of issue.

 

Ah, the jeske. Ever the voice of reason in this insane world we live in.

 

It's funny that while we've all attacked this from the perspectives of fluff and fair-mindedness, nobody thought to point out that it's points-wise pretty dumb. I'm embarrassed.

 

:(

 

Not only did I mention in my OP back on page 1 that this would be null and void come th enew SoB dex, and it seemed like that was ignored.

 

I've also mentioned this above...

 

Oh well...

[the jeske]

True; I wouldn't ever try running a rules lawyer trick like that in a real game, for exactly that reason.

that is a slippery thing I mean no one forced the khan biker player [i think we are thinking here about the same tournament] to outflank his whole force . he knew that his opponent had infiltration units , he could have deployed on the table [even a single unit would form a 12-18"" bubble of no infiltrators] . if we say that use of rule is bad then what is next . We wont be able to use single infiltration units to push SM scout builds away from our deployment . A few years ago I deployed a rhino with 8 NM behind a high LoS blocking hill. I never moved them for 3 turns and when my opponent flanked it he got hit by a syren and his 9 Venguard+chapplain unit died after a charge with me losing a NM . the board edge is also part of the table and terrain cleaver use of it should be prized not called rules bending .

[thade]

WH/DH: Unit Name - Officio Assassinorum Operative. (This unit has an option called Vindicare Temple Assassin. That is not the units name.)

 

GK: Unit Name - Assassin (from The Army of Titan section), Vindicare Assassin (from the Grey Knight Army List section)

I mean...this is more or less our impasse but...really? How can you say with a straight face that an Assassin from the Vindicare Temple with the Vindicare Temple Assassin option is not a Vindicare Assassin? I mean, srsly. Try it out. Say it out loud, right now. I just did and I got some looks around the office that were like "What, are you daft? I don't even know what those things are other than obviously being synonyms."

 

But if you're content with a "toMAYto" and a "toMAHto" being different things so that they can be shenani-coptered into a list together, that is where we are different.

 

Kind of a let down. ^_^

[Gentlemanloser]

Their unit name is different. Their points costs are different. Their Stats are different. Their Special Rules are different. Their Wargear is different.

 

What basis do *you* have to claim they are the same unit?

 

Also, if you eally want more RAW, the restriciton on the DH/WH Assassin is;

 

An Officio Assassinorum Operative may only be chosen if an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor is also part of the force. Note that no more than one Officio Assassinorum Operative can be used in any force for any reason

 

Do we need to take an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor to field a GK Vindicare? No. Becuase they are *not* an Officio Assassinorum Operate.

 

Therefore the restriction is not broken by having a GK Vindicare and a DH/WH Vindicare (Yes yes an Officio Assassinorum Operative!).

 

RAW.

 

No houserules. No wiggle room.

[thade]

Okay. Maybe there is a language barrier or something I'm not aware of? I apologize for overlooking this possibility. Allow me to address this as clearly as possible.

 

I am starkly aware that the naming scheme of the Vindicare from each book is different, and that their stat lines are different. I am not satisfied in the slightest with the thought that these very slight differences are sufficient to actually differentiate them for the purposes of violating the Unique qualifier on the Vindicare Assassin in the GK book.

 

More over, I feel that in the light of the new books being developed without taking the Allies Rules into account, that they are being rightfully banned at tournaments and obviously omitted in the new rules sets. As they are going away, any talk about how to make them work with the newer books is both folly and a waste of time.

 

Finally, doing so with the explicit purpose of allowing something as dodgy and exploity as the topic of discussion here kind of infuriates me (in as much as anything related to my little plastic army mans can). I'm not seething, but I am very, very disappointed that anybody would go to any length at all (especially the great lengths that have been reached in this thread) to try and justify it. There is no justification for trying to gain an advantage via using rules to their pure letter.

 

I want very much for this game to be about fun, camaraderie, and tactical thinking. Don't you? We have the power to make it that way, via the Most Important Rule.

 

Gah, I sound like a pamphlet.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not a slight difference. *Everything* is different.

 

If you claim that as unique, I don't know what to say...

[thade]

Their unit name is different. Their points costs are different. Their Stats are different. Their Special Rules are different. Their Wargear is different.

 

What basis do *you* have to claim they are the same unit?

I will say this one more time, for the record, and then I will accept that you (and others) purely and flatly refuse to accept my position based upon the literal writing of rules which are separated by like a decade of thinking and author turnover.

 

An assassin that comes from the Vindicare Temple is a Vindicare Assassin.

 

In a game where fluff dictates and guides much of the rules, this should come as no surprise.

 

Any thinking around this based purely on syntax and updated numerics is, well, silly.

[thade]

One last thing. I will now highlight your embarrassing and kind of ironic contradiction.

 

The point of your entire stance was an attempt to allow two Vindicare Assassins on the table.

 

I think you believe you've succeeded in this...by showing that they are different.

 

If they are different, as you say, then there is still only one Vindicare Assassin on the table...which was against your very thesis.

 

And that's funny, no? I thought so.

[Hackbar]

WH/DH: Unit Name - Officio Assassinorum Operative. (This unit has an option called Vindicare Temple Assassin. That is not the units name.)

 

GK: Unit Name - Assassin (from The Army of Titan section), Vindicare Assassin (from the Grey Knight Army List section)

I mean...this is more or less our impasse but...really? How can you say with a straight face that an Assassin from the Vindicare Temple with the Vindicare Temple Assassin option is not a Vindicare Assassin? I mean, srsly. Try it out. Say it out loud, right now. I just did and I got some looks around the office that were like "What, are you daft? I don't even know what those things are other than obviously being synonyms."

 

But if you're content with a "toMAYto" and a "toMAHto" being different things so that they can be shenani-coptered into a list together, that is where we are different.

 

Kind of a let down. ^_^

 

GW supports the idea that a one word difference in name and a slightly different stat line make a model different. Haven't you ever heard that you can't put a heavy or special weapon on your squad leader because " a Space Marine Sergeant is not a Space Marine"?

[thade]

GW supports the idea that a one word difference in name and a slightly different stat line make a model different. Haven't you ever heard that you can't put a heavy or special weapon on your squad leader because " a Space Marine Sergeant is not a Space Marine"?

Ug...really?

 

A Sergeant is the d00d that leads the marines in a unit.

 

A Vindicare Assassin is...an Assassin of the Vindicare Temple.

 

Those of you who are content letting subtleties in RAW wording stomp all over two+ decades of developed fluff is...well, a little weird to me.

[Gentlemanloser]

If fluff dictates the rules, Draigo should 1 handily destroy any opponents army he faces. ^_^

 

Fluff brings life to the rules, it enriches them, but it should never dictate them.

 

And that's funny, no? I thought so.

 

/shrug

 

I mentioned in my OP (that yet again seems to be ignored...) that one is the GK Vindicare and one the WH Vindicare. And I've also mentioned, again, before in this thread, the WH version is underwhelming compared to the GK version.

 

I never once tried to imply you could have two *identical* Vindicare Assassins at the same time...

[thade]

A Vindicare Assassin comes from the Vindicare Temple...no matter who he's currently contracted to work for. Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, the Grey Knights specifically, any other branch of the Inquisition or the Imperium as a whole...a Vindicare Assassin is a Vindicare Assassin from the Vindicare Assassin Temple where Vindicare Assassins are trained.

 

But I think I've said that a few times now.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nice fluff. The fluff has no bearings on the rules of the game though.

 

Hopefully this (another canon excerpt form the Codex) will yet again be enough to end this.

 

But I doubt it. :D

 

From Unit Composition

 

If the Unit Composition include the word 'Unique', then you may only include one of this unit in your army

 

The WH 'Vindicare' (shorter than typing Officio Assassinorum Operative...) doesn't have the word 'Unique'. So you can use it with any other unit in the GK list that does. It has it's own restriction on the amount you can use, but that only applies to the Officio Assassinorum Operative themselves. And there's none of thos eint he GK dex.

 

Thade, I'm sorry that you feel the Fluff should have more of an impact in the game, but it doesn't. For Balance. Otherwise we'd be playing movie marines slaughtering hundreds of Xenos per game, and Driago would wipe everyone out without breaking a sweat.

 

;)

[thade]

Nice fluff. The fluff has no bearings on the rules of the game though.

 

...

 

Thade, I'm sorry that you feel the Fluff should have more of an impact in the game, but it doesn't. For Balance. Otherwise we'd be playing movie marines slaughtering hundreds of Xenos per game, and Driago would wipe everyone out without breaking a sweat.

 

:D

Fluff is actually the basis for the entire game. Boltguns, the Emperor, Marine biology, Power Armor, Power Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Thunderhawks and Battle barges, the Warp, Chaos, etc, etc. Sure, numbers sometimes don't make sense as they strive to make a massive game as balanced as they can (in a time table that satisfied investors who are more interested in model releases and sales) but all of the rules stem from the fluff. And, just like any story, the burden of proof is not on the authors alone. Sometimes we are expected to make inferences and fill in holes ourselves. (IE the Most Important Rule.) Why does Draigo not wreck entire 3000 point armies on his own? Possibly because he's randomly swept back into (or out of) the Warp before he can finish? Calgar doesn't die each time he goes down, he's only a casualty...which doesn't mean dead. It means he was wounded and needed to withdraw...or is still there, fighting, but no longer has any real bearing on the outcome of the battle. Without suspension of disbelief, none of it works anyway. Beyond that, without the fluff we wouldn't have this game at all. It's be some other, different game. Probably with different fluff. ;)

 

For many of us, fluff is the reason we play the game at all; some of us even plan our lists around the fluff instead of taking a meta/internet/"cheese" list. The fluff is fun for me. See the Most Important Rule. <3

 

As for why a Vindicare is a Vindicare by any name, despite how they're referred to in two very different editions of the rules, see the Night Hawks sig in my quote.

 

In either case, I'm content to agree that we won't see eye to eye on this. All I'm really disappointed in, frankly, is the reason why. ;) But we've been over that too.

 

No hard feelings, for my part.

[Gentlemanloser]

None from my end either! :D

 

I don't take any of this personally.

[Meatman]

The key there being "fun for both people involved."

 

 

This here, is why I continue to respect you Thade. Quoted for truth, and sigged.

[thade]

Thanks, Meatman. That means a lot to me.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yes thade you are a very cool individual and respectful of other people - but at the same time you speak your mind well when you disagree. ;) That is pure gold.

 

G :lol:

[Hackbar]

GW supports the idea that a one word difference in name and a slightly different stat line make a model different. Haven't you ever heard that you can't put a heavy or special weapon on your squad leader because " a Space Marine Sergeant is not a Space Marine"?

Ug...really?

 

A Sergeant is the d00d that leads the marines in a unit.

 

A Vindicare Assassin is...an Assassin of the Vindicare Temple.

 

Those of you who are content letting subtleties in RAW wording stomp all over two+ decades of developed fluff is...well, a little weird to me.

 

You seem to be missing the point. The rules don't care that the fluff states the sereant is the squad leader. In the fluff there are brothers leading space wolf packs (without wolf guard) and crusader squads, and the rules pay them no mind. The rules care about the specific wording of the model's name and it's profile and equipment etc. Thus the seemingly contradictory statement that a space marine sergeant is not a space marine and thus not eligible for upgrades that specify "a space marine." we all know he's damn well a space marine,bfluff-wise, but for the purposes of the rules he must not be confused with the other space marines that are named "space marine." by the same token, the two vindicares are not the same, even though similar.

 

 

I'm not at all happy letting the rules as they are written stomp on established fluff, (I play grey knights, I've got plenty to say on that subject and not much of it civil) but the rules are what they are and any stranger on the opposite side of the

table is going to expect that I go by the book and Official FAQs.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Fluff is the basis for the rules along with some balance (hopefully). Hee. The WH version of the Vindicare is nowhere near as powerful as the new GK version so if somebody really wants to take them both (plus the mandatory Inquisitor from the WH codex) it's not a big deal in terms of it's not much of an advantage, if any at all. Still to me it's obvious they are the same for the purpose of intent which is definitely important. The comparison to a SM sergeant is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

G :P

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Worst. Thread. Ever.

 

Until someone tries to argue for an even worse waste of points.

[brianjc]

Chewbaca defense FTW.

 

Seriously though after this thread I'm thinking about bringing a lawyer to my next game.