Morollan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 A Vindicare Assassin comes from the Vindicare Temple...no matter who he's currently contracted to work for. Weren't you saying that Grey Knights are not Adeptus Astartes because they work for the Ordo Malleus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slyfox1990 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Such a daft and pointless topic and I am utterly behind everthing that Thade has been saying so far. My very simple view on this. 1. Yes you can argue a case for being able to use 2 - if we are thinking in terms of the wording and loop holes in law. At best it's all extremely woolly though. 2. There is absolutely no justification for doing this in the real world. You only look like a prat, :huh:, :cuss ( any number of related words ) It completely lacks gamesmanship to even suggest doing this. It is utterly clear that the intention is that you can only field one. No matter how you spin things, you are trying to subvert the rules. edit: spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 deleted - wrong forum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 *** Warning: all my respect for the people who actually went, picked up a book and quoted stuff *** Holy moly... I really tried to read all 5 pages...got extremely bored at the end of page 2. IMO, it doesn't border ridicule...it takes a giant leap over the line xD Furthermore, the OP has been totally derailed...and since the sisters are supposed to come out in a couple weeks, the "controversy" will probably be over (we all know GW's tradition of putting out incomplete rules). Bottom line: how can anybody say a Grey Knight is not a Space Marine? I'm no fluff-savant, but IIRC they have the 19 implants (give or take) and just some flashy tatoos, special armour and a bit of psyck. That still makes them Space Marines...at least IMO. As for a chapter... they are quite organized as one, ain't they? No, don't have my C: GK here. The have chaptermaster (the guy that jumps in and out killing Slaanesh and the fun stuff), they have power armour... I think they even have rhinos!!!!!! :) If each of us (I include myself) had devoted the X minutes we used to type the post to improve a primed model (say each poster did 1 step, as in basing, lenses or whatever)... we would have a beautiful squad by now xDDD Chill and don't take things so serious :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Just had a thought - for all those who argue that fluff-wise GKs are not Space Marines. Fluff-wise the Emperor decreed that only Space Marines may possess Land Raiders, do GKs have Land Raiders? fixed spelling so as not to worry Tanhausen. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Actually dswanick that might not be the best of thoughts...specially when using the verb "posses" ;) LR + possesion = Space Marine but not the best of them ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowThyEnemy Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 "What's in a name? That which we call a vindicare By any other name would be as deadly." absolutely bored with the discussion due to the insanity complex (doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting it to change). just thought thade would get a chuckle out of the quote :D. well argued sir. and being able to shoot into close combat isn't underpowered, its plain funny! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 A Vindicare Assassin comes from the Vindicare Temple...no matter who he's currently contracted to work for. Weren't you saying that Grey Knights are not Adeptus Astartes because they work for the Ordo Malleus? Yes, that I did. Should I have pointed out that a Vindicare Assassin is not a Grey Knight? I thought that much was obvious...at least, from a fluff perspective. Grey Knights are bio-engineered super solidiers, likely from the Emperor's gene seed (whatever that actually is), and are all psykers. Vindicares likely receive cybernetic enhancements, probably gene therapy, and are crack shots...but they don't get two hearts, a third lung, a Laraman's organ, etc. Also, Vindicares aren't known for being Psykers (to my knowledge). Also, they're not known for having received the Emperor's gene seed. I think much of the disagreement here stems from the varying degrees of weight each of us puts on fluff - old and new - and its impact on the actual rule set. Not a big deal though, right? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2848980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Fluff is the basis for the rules along with some balance (hopefully). Hee. The WH version of the Vindicare is nowhere near as powerful as the new GK version so if somebody really wants to take them both (plus the mandatory Inquisitor from the WH codex) it's not a big deal in terms of it's not much of an advantage, if any at all. Still to me it's obvious they are the same for the purpose of intent which is definitely important. The comparison to a SM sergeant is like comparing apples to oranges. G It's an odd comparison, but it points out a quirk in game rule systems that is infuriating to those of us who care about fluff. Precise wording matters. See also the Dreadknight = Jump Infantry madness, the "Vulkan's heavy flamer isn't a heavy flamer, it just acts like one" argument, and the 'are henchman psykers psykers or not?' debate, among many others. Stuff like this are why games like Magic: The Gathering maintain a predefined and ever-growing set of keywords and abilities that have clearly defined and more or less immutable meanings. You don't have to have the argument of what exactly Protection from Elves means because the rulebook defines Protection and all Elves have Elf written right on them. (compare to the fact that Preferred Enemy is nebulous and vague since there are good fluff arguments that, for example, some units in the Tau codex are not technically Tau, or no units in the Eldar codex have a rule that defines them as Eldar) I don't like rules lawyering for precisely this reason. Someone points out a loophole/incosistency/error in the current rules, and people jump all over trying to prove it can't be because it violates the :cuss out of the fluff. This may be so, but the rules and fluff are not the same. There are plenty of rules in the GK dex that seem to step on the fluff written in the same book, but you don't see me trying to convince people to let me run the GK dex the way I think it should be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The old "Grey Knights are not Astartes" nonesense again? I am most amused. I remember someone once arguing that Space Wolves where not Astartes because they didn't follow the codex. There will always be fluff nazis and fools. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The old "Grey Knights are not Astartes" nonesense again? I am most amused. I remember someone once arguing that Space Wolves where not Astartes because they didn't follow the codex. There will always be fluff nazis and fools. The old "I had nothing to do with this thread but felt like being condescending anyway" nonsense again? I'm amused too. EDIT: I think this thread has jumped the shark. Here's hoping a certain Inquisitor shows up and agrees with me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 A Vindicare Assassin comes from the Vindicare Temple...no matter who he's currently contracted to work for. Weren't you saying that Grey Knights are not Adeptus Astartes because they work for the Ordo Malleus? Yes, that I did. Should I have pointed out that a Vindicare Assassin is not a Grey Knight? I thought that much was obvious...at least, from a fluff perspective. Grey Knights are bio-engineered super solidiers, likely from the Emperor's gene seed (whatever that actually is), and are all psykers. Vindicares likely receive cybernetic enhancements, probably gene therapy, and are crack shots...but they don't get two hearts, a third lung, a Laraman's organ, etc. Also, Vindicares aren't known for being Psykers (to my knowledge). Also, they're not known for having received the Emperor's gene seed. I'm not contending that a Vindicare is a Grey Knight. I just find it somewhat strange that a Vindicare is a Vindicare regardless of who he works for but a Grey Knight is not an Adeptus Astartes because he works for the Ordo Malleus. Seems a tad contradictory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I think much of the disagreement here stems from the varying degrees of weight each of us puts on fluff - old and new - and its impact on the actual rule set. Not a big deal though, right? wait . Thade your not claiming that the GK dex is not a divergent sm right ? since when did fluff had anything to do with rules anyway ? they stoped around end RT when w40k was getting less RPG and more skirmish . Now it is no longer a skirmish game and we realy have tons of examples of stuff that is named the same and has different rules . + as I said it before , it is legal for 2 weeks and overcosted . unlike runing mystics in IG armies for a year+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The old "Grey Knights are not Astartes" nonesense again? I am most amused. I remember someone once arguing that Space Wolves where not Astartes because they didn't follow the codex. There will always be fluff nazis and fools. The old "I had nothing to do with this thread but felt like being condescending anyway" nonsense again? I'm amused too. EDIT: I think this thread has jumped the shark. Here's hoping a certain Inquisitor shows up and agrees with me... Codex Grey Knights: £20.00 Terminator boxed set: £28.00 People who claim Grey Knights are not Astartes and then get all uppity when they get called on it: priceless Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 They're BOTH Space Marine Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes and they work for the Ordo Malleus. Still in either case, you can't take WH Vindicares in a GK army. You can't take them in any other variant marine army, since a "Space Marine" army is played using "Codex: Space Marines". To be honest the new codex has removed the "work for the Ordo Malleus" bit. The old fluff was pretty much that the the Grey Knighst where the ordo's pet chapter. Let me quote from the Codex: Where the other Space Marine Chapters would be autonomous. the Grey Knights would be embedded in the Inquisition and would serve as the chamber militant of that most secret of societies If folks want to get REALLY anal and picky the exact wording does NOT mention ordo malleus it says the Inquisition as a whole. So by the wording of published, Games Workshop canon the Grey Knights work for all three of the ordos. Which may have something to do with the fact that all three ordos are represented in the Codex for Inquisitors (sure a coincidence?). So by this interpretation the Grey Knights can ally with the Witch Hunters, as the chamber militant for the ENTIRE inqusition you should eb able to have them work with the Inquisitor commanding the Battle Sisters. The Grey Knights are a chapter of Adeptus Astartes that are EXTREMELY specialised and focus on hunting down and destroying daemons in open battle, by definition a loyal Space marine is Adeptus Astartes saying one isn't the other is like saying a Catholic isn't a Christian. They are created using geneseed, harvested from their fallen brothers. They have all 19 of the implants, including the black carapace. They utilisepower armour and terminator armour and place their revered yet crippled heroes in dreadnoughts to preserve their knowledge and skills. They are Astartes To claim they are not Astartes is wishful thinking at best, willfull ignorance of 40k canon at worst. That being said, claiming you can have 2 assassins by using Grey Knighst as allies in the 3rd ed WH codex is cheesey, poor sportsmanship and breaks the spirit of the intended rules. The only way you should be able to field more than one Assassin is in an apocalypse game. However having the two armies fight together shouldn't be a problem, afterall just such an event is in the damned fluff in Codex Grey Knights (admittedly it didn't end well for the Battle Sisters). The whole argument is academic come next month anyway as GW seems to be taking the Sisters in a new direction. The battle Sisters are being seperated from the Inquisition and (finaly) highlighted as the ecclesiarchy's millitary force. In my opinion this is the best way as the Sisters of Battle are supposed to be the Ecclesiarchy's army first and foremost while being dragged into inquisitorial service whenever an ordo hereticus Inquisitor needs a bit of help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 This thread is still the worst thread ever. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Wow... here's what I get for not checking on this thread in a couple days... I think all the questions have been answered. You get 1 (count em, 1) Vindicare in your army outside of Apocalypse games, as they are Unique. Grey Knights are Adeptus Astartes who are members/work with the Ordo Malleus (which technically is a suborder of Inquisitors and Space Marines are not Inquisitors. However the exact membership requirements aren't spelled out so it's questionable). A Grey Knight never ceases to be an Astartes just because sometimes they wear a different hat. In the new vein of Battle Missions and suchnot, I would count the Grey Knight Codex as a Space Marine Codex. Seems pretty intuitive to me. This thread has long since ran it's course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2849700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 A quick PS... Gentlemanloser is correct in his assertation that under the current version of the WH Codex it is possible to ally in a Vindicare. The ruling as to whether it is a second instance versus the FAQ wordings that only one Temple Assassin is allowed per army whatsoever is open to interpretation depending upon a groups adherence to FAQs. For the next two or three weeks until the SoB Codex pt 2 hits the shelf in the new White Dwarf though, it is sorta possible. Just wanted to clear that up. As I suspect this will become a non-issue after the second half of the Sisters of Battle Codex is released, my advice is to get used to a single instance of each Temple Assassin outside of that specific Apocalypse formation :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236153-vindcare-assassins/page/5/#findComment-2850202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.