Liturgies of Battle/Furious Charge

[Bannus]

I was curious about the comparative effectiveness of Liturgies of Battle (which grants rerolling missed to hit rolls) vs. Furious Charge (which grants a +1 Str and +1) - both are limited to when the unit charges, so their application would be identical (in terms of opportunity to use).

 

So are they about the same? Or is one really better than the other?

[JamesI]

My experience on the table top tells me that I prefer Furious Charge. I can tell this by noticing that all of my chaplains have fallen out of my lists of late and the number of Sanguinary Priests is increasing.

 

Both help you kill more enemies, either through improving chances to hit or improcving chances to wound. but FC also helps by making you faster and therefore you can kill enemies before they swing.

 

My quick mathhammer tends to favor Liturgies over FC (a 10 man assault squad with rerolls to hit will kill 5 MeQ, FC is just over 4. Quite a bit of the difference though is the fact that LB helps the PF sarge while FC does not, though a PW sarge Liturgies still wins by about half a kill.)

[Koremu]

Against WS4/T4, re-roll to hit is better (37.5% chance to wound per attack, against 33% for FC)

 

However, as T rises or WS falls, FC becomes better, and FC may be outright better if the enemy also strikes at I4.

 

 

 

EDIT: for reference, against a Carnifex Liturgy gives roughly 15% chance, FC 22%

[Captain Idaho]

Furious Charge is the best in my opinion. The ability to kill models before they strike is better than wiping out more models. If you already strike 1st the re-rolls are probably better than an extra pip of strength.

 

Most armies have initiative comparable to Marines, so being able to kill some models before they strike is amazingly useful if you don't know what you will face.

 

Besides, it's probably better to kill models over 2 combat phases than 1, since you can't be shot that way. Re-rolls will probably net more kills I'd imagine.

 

Of course, it depends on what your premier fighting unit is. Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators will not really benefit from Furious Charge so will prefer re-rolls.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

If I could get both I would. But I would like FC the best if I had to choose between the two.

[minigun762]

I think LoB would be more significant if you had a power fist present. S9 is nice but the +1I is wasted plus power fist strikes usually represent the bulk of a unit's strength.

[JamesI]

If I could get both I would. But I would like FC the best if I had to choose between the two.

Both is really nice. When I had Astorath, 10 assault marines and a priest running together very rarely did they not obliterate whatever they charged.

[DarkGuard]

Although I agree with what you say JamesI, do you not think that Sang Priests vs Chaplains are a bit unfair. You must also remember that Sang Priests give FnP, which I imagine would also tip the scales in their favour much more.

 

Otherwise, I agree with the general consensus that Furious Charge slightly pips it because of +1 I. Less models swinging at you also means less casualties, so it is in some ways more survivable, and in other ways still more killable, for example you'd strike at the same time against most Eldar units rather than after.

[JamesI]

Although I agree with what you say JamesI, do you not think that Sang Priests vs Chaplains are a bit unfair. You must also remember that Sang Priests give FnP, which I imagine would also tip the scales in their favour much more.

 

Otherwise, I agree with the general consensus that Furious Charge slightly pips it because of +1 I. Less models swinging at you also means less casualties, so it is in some ways more survivable, and in other ways still more killable, for example you'd strike at the same time against most Eldar units rather than after.

 

Yes, this is true. Priests/Chaplains is not a fair comparision, but I still stand by the fact that experimentally I prefer FC.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have to go with FC as well, for the aforementioned Initiative bonus. As an Eldar player, I'm infinitely familiar with the benefits of striking before your enemy; it reduces casaulties and that is never a bad thing. The +1 S is just gravy.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Why not just play real Marines and have both? ;)

 

Preferred enemy - every turn, not just charging.

Furious charge.

and then Lightning claws for funsies :)

 

+++

 

Besides me teasing you, I wanted to say I am surprised that people have not tried counts-as with Templars to be honest.

 

Outside of Combat tactics, which goes in the opposite direction, is there much that Chapter tactics offers besides being 'fluffy' if you are not running a Bike Marines force?

 

I don't think Templars are flat-out better, but would have thought people would be interested in trying Tactical Termies that are nice and shooty, Hammernators that hit often, 5 marine squads with a Heavy and special weapon, etc.

[greatcrusade08]

assault in 5th ed is very initiative driven, especially with the huge number of power weapons floating about.. so furious charge will usually be better simply becuase it prevents enemy attacks.

even if your killing one or two enemy less than with re-rolls, your more likely to win combat if your denying the enemy some of his attacks back

 

@Wilhelm, i have a couple of buddies who run templars, and i do secretly have a love for them, despite being an older dex they can still go toe to toe with current armies..

juzst dont tell anyone i said that ^_^

[MagicMan]

Twin-linked punches to the face? How could you say no?