Terminators vs. Honor Guard

[rpnightsend]

So I've recently started running honor guard in my land raider rather than my usual assault terminators and I've come up with a few pros and cons to both. I'm wondering what you guys think. Both squads consist of 5 models. the terminators are all equipped with lightning claws, the honor guard with a banner and the champion has a relic blade. I understand the situations can be different if a thunder hammer or mix of hammer/claws assault squad is taken but i use these guys as my solid anti-meq and i usually need all 5 lightning claws.

 

Assault Termies:

Pros:

Re-rolling wounds

Invuln save

25 points cheaper

Can deep strike if needed

 

Cons:

Can't sweeping advance

No ranged weapons

No frag grenades unless in a land raider crusader/redeemer

 

Honor Guard:

Pros:

More attacks

Banner also improves IC's with them

Always score an extra wound in combat if banner is alive

Champion gets bonuses vs. enemy IC's

Can cram into a razorback or rhino if i don't want them in the land raider

Frag grenades

 

Cons:

No invuln save

25 points more expensive

IF banner or champion dies there's a decent drop in damage output

[BassWave]

Sorry brother, but there's been a lot of discussions on this before. The final consensus is that you can't compare the two units as they are meant to do different things. Honor Guard are meant to attack shooty units, or basically any unit that isn't amazing in assault. Terminators however are meant to take down big bads, especially when equiped with thunder hammers/storm shields. Personally I like Honor Guard because they are different, and I once lucked out big time and was able to take down a unit of 7 genestealers with broodlord with my Honor guard and chapter master :(.

 

Here's one topic comparing Command squads, honor guards, and vanguards as replacements for assault terminators, here ya go.

[greatcrusade08]

personally i would never use hammer terminators, or at least not full squads.. the interwebz netlists have really ruined that unit IMO.

 

as for me i really like a khan and claw termy combo out of a land raider crusader, really carves up anything it touches and at I5 can effect even other assault elements.. if you wanted a little more survivability you could go 3 claw 2 TH/SS

as for which i prefer between honour guard and terminators, i have to settle with honour guard.. unlike basswave i dont think they are solely used for taking on 'shooty elements' rather you support them properly and they act as a bully unit..

with an attached chapter master and proper assault placement they can take on a reduced assault element as easily as an enemy tac squad

 

like most truelly effective unit choices/combos, its more about thier use.. i think thats why people like the hammer termies, they require no real thought or tactics, just point and mulch

[Tasche]

Honour guards are iffy subject, as standard Chapter masters are lacking some extra rules/flavor just to obtain the units. In reality its actually 125 minimum + honour guards Vs. Terminators for 200. As bass stated, you cannot compare the 2 units as their roles are similar but valued to a certain type of combat.

 

I run pedro kantor in my lists, as a chapter master, i can take honour guards but for the base cost of the unit, i can get a vanguard unit. which i do and take min of 2 sternguard units aswell. If i take terminators, never leave home without hammers and shields. my typical list includes both a dedicated anti-troop and anti-meq/heavy assault unit. as we all know, assaults in 5th ed are winner takes all.

[sofacoin]

Bah, I hate all this 'you can't compare the two as they do different things' garbage. Imagine the following two units: one is a 20-point-per-man squad of marines with power weapons; the other is a 20-point-per-man squad all of whom have assault 4 autocannons with the melta rule.

 

It's pretty clear which is better, despite the fact some may like the former more for the ability to take lots of cheap power weapons. Just because they do different things doesn't mean one can't clearly give a more significant boost to an army's killing potential-- that's just fallacy. Claiming they can't be compared is either the refuge of someone who doesn't want to admit his favourite units might not be optimal or the shrug of someone who feels the two units are so close in power it's not possible for them to choose one as better than the other-- or just someone parroting received wisdom.

 

I'd say assault terminators are better than honour guard: honour guard require a Chapter Master, limiting HQ selection-- fine if you were taking a non-biker captain and don't want a command squad. Additionally, while they can't sweeping advance, 5 x lightning claws or 5 x thunder hammers or any ration between is a bit more decisive in combat than the honour guards-- and the invulnerable saves don't hurt. Being able to take a land raider without taking a predator-heavy support slot is also delightful.

Last, a general 'nasty assault rock' in the form of terminators is more useful to most marine armies than a 'somewhat nasty special character guard/assault squad'.

[rpnightsend]

I'm in agreement with sofacoin here. While I know there are some units that can't be compared at all, I don't think this is one of those situations.

Great crusade, I never thought about running khan with the squad to get the extra point of initiative, which in a counter-assault unit is great. Thank you for that idea, I think I'll be trying that.

Also, for me its not 125+the honor guard, because I was already taking a captain with a jump pack, so its really just an extra 25 points.

I was running chaplain cassius with my honor guard, in case someone manages to take down their land raider and point a nasty AP 2 at them he can jump in the way and take it like the man he is.

I think after reading this I'm in agreement that assault terminators are probably better most of the time, but I'm not convinced they are 100% better, especially because after that first charge they lose a bit of steam, especially if you're opponent is abusing cover, like everyone does in 5th edition.

[greatcrusade08]

Great crusade, I never thought about running khan with the squad to get the extra point of initiative, which in a counter-assault unit is great. Thank you for that idea, I think I'll be trying that.

 

Khan gives furious charge which is +1I and +1S, with the lightneing claw re-rolls, thats alot of dead enemies, khan also has hit and run and outflank.. hit and run for when you get charged by something gribbly like a dread and want to get out of combat (even a way to get the charge bonuses again) and outflank is a very tactical tool to add to your arsenal

if you really wanted to deathstar this unit, add a chappy (or cassius)

[DarkGuard]

Well a lot of anti-Honour Guard sentiment on here, I thought that had gone a while ago. I suppose I'll do the best I can until Captain Idaho gets here.

 

Honour Guard and Assault Terminators, like it or not, do completely different things for completely different people. Assault Terminators are a sledgehammer, put them in a Raider, roll them at whatever you don't like, and let them kill things quickly. Assuming TH/SS here, a lot of people will also tell you they do a job no other unit can do in our Codex, killing big things like MCs, Nob squads, ICs etc. Well that's a lie, we've got melta squads, plasma squads, Vindicators etc that can do the same thing. Hammernators are still niche, they just aren't as niche as some people think.

 

Honour Guard, again, are niche, but not completely. They do best against anything without an invulnerable save and which doesn't have power weapons striking at the same time or earlier. So most Eldar units that aren't Banshees, Seer Councils and Incubi, most Marine units, pretty much all Guard and Tau units, near enough everything in the Necron Codex etc. The reason for these targets is that the Honour Guard unit itself doesn't have an invulnerable save. But then they shouldn't need one if you're using them properly. They have arty armour, so against the right units they'll survive anyway. And compared to Terminators, they chuck out a lot of attacks.

 

Now, someone earlier mentioned that you have to take a Chapter Master with Honour Guard, and so it's therefore 125pts+ and the Honour Guard vs 200pts. I'm sorry, that's wrong. Assault Terminators are slow, and if they footslog they die. So you need them in a Land Raider, it's almost compulsory. So that's at least 450pts. And I'll tell you what else is compulsory, a HQ, which, thanks to unit selection, will probably join them. So now we're looking at between 550pts-650pts, depending on the HQ and upgrades etc. Honour Guard, on the other hand, in the very well built Idaho pattern, actually cost less. 170pts for the Chapter Master, who needs a relic blade and storm shield to complete his function. 225pts for the Honour Guard, so we're now at 395pts. Quite a bit less actually. Of course, they need a transport, and if you put them in a Raider they are now more expensive. But the beauty of Honour Guard is that they don't need a Raider to do well, not if you use them properly. 35pts for a Rhino, and you're sorted. And no, a Rhino is not as survivable as a Raider, but it is if you play it in the right list with the right style, I can't remember the last time my Honour Guard's Rhino died. So a grand total of 430pts vs 450-550pts makes the Honour Guard cheaper.

 

And how do we deal with elite units then? Different choices in the rest of the list. Those flamer Tactical squads are now plasma squads, those heavy bolters now plasma cannons etc. In the right list and used correctly Honour Guard can be just as dangerous if not more so than Terminators. Recently I've been having fun using two of my favourite units side by side, Honour Guard with a CM, and Sternguard with a Libby. It just so happens the Libby has Null Zone, and thanks to IC status can hop between squads. As such I've had great fun dismantling Hammernator squads with my Honour Guard in three of my last four games with no casualties (apart from the Libby, once). Not a common occurrence I grant you, but something I'm immensely proud of my Honour Guard for doing.

[rpnightsend]

Thats an outstanding point Darkguard. My list actually does include sternguard, though without the librarian (they have a drop pod). I run Cassius with my honour guard, while my chapter master is off with my assault marines cleaving through anything that looks at him funny. I think I may actually try out using the librarian and sternguard like that.

[DarkGuard]

Thats an outstanding point Darkguard. My list actually does include sternguard, though without the librarian (they have a drop pod). I run Cassius with my honour guard, while my chapter master is off with my assault marines cleaving through anything that looks at him funny. I think I may actually try out using the librarian and sternguard like that.

 

Thank you. It's something that if you know you're LGS is running such units then it's fun to try out, but if your current set up is working don't feel as if you have to change it. That being said, I think my Libby has now forced his way back in because he gives me another way to deal with Hammernators which I didn't have before.

[greatcrusade08]

Thank you. It's something that if you know you're LGS is running such units then it's fun to try out, but if your current set up is working don't feel as if you have to change it. That being said, I think my Libby has now forced his way back in because he gives me another way to deal with Hammernators which I didn't have before.

 

and null zone seems to be a good way to help counter GK draigowing, which is one of the big meta lists at the moment...

[Tangamarine]

I have had success with both units, but found the fact that honour guard don't need the Landraider very liberating, as if their rhino does get destroyed, they can jump into another squads if need be, and the chapter master can send an orbital bombardment out the top hatch 1st turn.

The honour guard have even netted me Mephiston, while only suffering 2 casualties in return. The only real trouble I have with them, is inevitably, they get caught out in the open

[spartan249]

Here's my opinion on the matter.

 

If you're running a rhino heavy list, then don't use terminators. You ruin the theme of the mass of rhinos, and reduce the number of rhinos present on the field, which in turn reduces the army's overall durability. Go with Honor Guard in this case, as they will fulfill most of your emergency close combat duties anyway.

 

If you're not running a super mech rhino list, however, I think Terminators turn out to be the better option. They have options in deployment (Deep Strike is always a tactical option, and can prove useful if your opponent needs to hold ground. Additionally, this option can be used even if they have a dedicated LR, which can keep your opponent guessing until game time). They have superior durability in and out of close combat. And things that Honor Guard would be utterly unable to handle are easily within the capabilities of Terminators.

 

Once again, this is all my opinion, formulated through my experience with my army.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Great crusade, I never thought about running khan with the squad to get the extra point of initiative, which in a counter-assault unit is great. Thank you for that idea, I think I'll be trying that.

 

Khan gives furious charge which is +1I and +1S, with the lightneing claw re-rolls, thats alot of dead enemies, khan also has hit and run and outflank.. hit and run for when you get charged by something gribbly like a dread and want to get out of combat (even a way to get the charge bonuses again) and outflank is a very tactical tool to add to your arsenal

if you really wanted to deathstar this unit, add a chappy (or cassius)

 

I think Khan's H&R can be used on even things that the unit would duff over, though I think you have said that....

 

His squad engages unitX, who don't break in your assault phase. You fight them next turn, but don't defeat them. But you still H&R away from them.

OR

Khan's squad gets assaulted, and so you H&R away from them.

 

Both these scenarios leave the enemy in a clump.

 

Remember how Lash and Obliterators used to eat units by clumping them, then hosing them with plasma blasts....?

;)

Whilst Imperials don't usually have that kind of plasma on the table; frags, thunderfires, flamers [normal, heavy and flamestorm] and demolisher shells can all cash in big time on a clumped unit.

Even if you don't have such area effect weapons, hopefully the enemy is not in cover and you can just erode them anyway.

 

Meanwhile Khan and his squad have moved 3d6" towards the next unit, then move+assault, given them a large, on average, 22.5" charge, in effect. That is Thunderwolf territory and might well even catch expecting opponents out.

 

This move can be really powerful and have what was just a counter-attacking unit into one that is contesting Objectives.

 

+++

 

Where I think Outflank shines is in the application of intimidating your opponent into deploying in a central area. You know how Wolf Scouts are inferior to Grey Hunters on table, but the threat of what Wolf Scouts can do with force armies more than 12" away from their own table edge? - which is great if the Wolf army is choppy focused.

 

Outflanking Trikes with Multimeltas can do a similar thing. Having your opponent not set-up within 24" of the edges, just in case, can be great against shooty armies, and even against choppy lists can force them into the centre, giving you more room to retreat into.

^_^

If the terrain is in the centre of the board, and you foe feels obliged to deploy in the centre of the board, it can really choke his firing lines and/or movement....

 

Part of the deal with tackling Tau is them continuously falling back from you. Tau AV and Suits do not want to have MM aimed at them, and anything within 18" of an edge is potentially getting assaulted :D

 

+++

 

Land Raiders, with whichever occupants, can also be used well in a counter punching roll. Actually the much maligned Phobos pattern with its confused tl LC sponsons but on an assault vehicle status is an ideal transport for pewpewing for a few turns, then dumping its passengers with a 21"ish assault move onto whatever is coming your way.

 

We often think that using the LR assault function is something we must be in a hurry to do, but it is not. It allows you to thin your opponents army down, and wait for him to commit his deathstar [if he has one] which you then counter with yours, but yours is on the charge

 

Timing can be as or more important than effort.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah, thats a pretty awesome and spot on assessment.. im using shrike at the moment, but used Khan for a long time before that.. hes definately a big fave of mine from the C:SM.. infact brother tual made me a special khan model that i still have loitering around.. i may have to dust him off again soon ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

yeah, thats a pretty awesome and spot on assessment.. im using shrike at the moment, but used Khan for a long time before that.. hes definately a big fave of mine from the C:SM.. infact brother tual made me a special khan model that i still have loitering around.. i may have to dust him off again soon ;)

 

Tual made you a mini and sent it to you in England?!

Wow, that was very nice of him :huh:

I am always surprised and gladdened when people are nice to one another.

 

Do you have pictures of your Khan?

[greatcrusade08]

a little off topic now.. hopefully the OP doesnt mind too much.

 

yeah tual is an amazing chap, really helped me out when i restarted in the hobby, i owe a great part of my tactical awareness to him

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww87/greatcrusade08/003-5.jpg

 

edit: hes tilting back a bit too much, there are some problems with overseas shipping, i didnt pin him back in place correctly, need to readdress that.

anyhoo i made an army list here. that uses khan

 

getting back on topic, i suppose HQ choices play a big role in the choice between honour guard and termies.. if your normally accustomed to using a chapter master for the OB, then HG are a no brainer, however if like me you favour a certain SC, then your far more likely to go with termies.

i guess my point is, sometimes is not a direct choice between uints, the FOC often forces our hand when we take a turn towards a certain army build

[Brother Tual]

Mathius link

 

Some more pics for you. He has a trophy rack somewhere too.. Have you added any lately mate?

[greatcrusade08]

Mathius link

 

Some more pics for you. He has a trophy rack somewhere too.. Have you added any lately mate?

 

tbh i hadnt kept count, he has killed a few non named HQs.. i havent used him in a year, but want to try him out again shortly.. i put the list up in the army list section.. given how slowly im painting at the moment, if i cant get my chaos boys done in time i may end up using him at the next tourney i go to

[thade]

Honor Guard get some of the same benefits over Terminators that foot-slogging Vanguard does.

• Frag grenades.
  
• Sweeping Advance.
  
• Smaller bases = more can fit in a transport; can squeeze through smaller spaces and more easily engage models that you don't want to be able to pile-in (e.g. nasty IC-killing ICs).
  
• In the case of HG, they can get Relic Blades (giving them S6 at I4) which will massacre most light to heavy infantry in the game.
  

HG are like...the Swordmasters of Hoethe in Space Marine form. They're a small unit that can't sustain a lot of losses but they hit very hard and can squeeze themselves into assaults that large Terminator bases can't get to, helping out with their ludicrous number of power weapon attacks.

 

Terminators are a bit harder to kill (in the case of Hammernators, they are much harder to kill, sacrificing both initiative and pre-charge shooting for their trouble) and being so large they get a bit of a bonus to their charge out of a Land Raider.

 

Honestly I'd almost like to take both units, given the chance. Honor Guard + Hammernators means the guys with Shields can potentially lock the enemy buried power fists in place while the S6/S4 at I4 HG cuts into them hard, reducing the number of swings the units take back as a whole.

 

Both units have uses. Neither is intrinsically better than the other. They do in fact serve different roles.

[DarkGuard]

A unit of each would be nasty, but also expensive. Of course, perhaps put them both in a Land Raider to help with target overload. The Honour Guard wouldn't need the relic blades either as they'd be focussing on infantry, so power swords would suffice, while the Hammernators take out the big things.

 

In relation to the lack of grenades on Terminators, I don't think it's as big a point as some might think. Most Terminator units are in LRCs or LRRs which have frag assault launchers, giving the unit inside frag grenades on the turn they disembark. Furthermore, as has been said most people use Hammernators, which always strike at I1, so the loss of grenades means nothing to them.

[thade]

In relation to the lack of grenades on Terminators, I don't think it's as big a point as some might think. Most Terminator units are in LRCs or LRRs which have frag assault launchers, giving the unit inside frag grenades on the turn they disembark.

 

Certainly true for the turn they charge out of the Land Raider...if they get to charge out of the Land Raider before it gets nuked by the combi-melta sternguard/multi-melta bunker/whatever else. Land Raider life expectancy within charge range is a fickle thing. And they only get to charge into cover on a disembark...the HG can do it as many times as they please without using a transport at all.

 

Furthermore, as has been said most people use Hammernators, which always strike at I1, so the loss of grenades means nothing to them.

 

This is true. Going last can be a disadvantage though.

[greatcrusade08]

Furthermore, as has been said most people use Hammernators, which always strike at I1, so the loss of grenades means nothing to them.

 

This is true. Going last can be a disadvantage though.

 

i played alloyslayer at helix games in westbury at an ultra-meet, he had 5 tactical termies with lysander, i srrounded them with 3 scout squads (15 ccw souts and 10 bolter scouts) shot with pistols and charged.. not only did i win combat but after my turn all he had left was lysander surrounded by scouts, he died in the next turn.

 

combat IS very initative driven, I1 isnt always a bonus and storm shields dont bolster your normal save vs buckets of dice

 

edit: mind you in that same game his khan insta-killed my shrike with a coup-de-grace before being killed by Telion in close combat.. was a day of days for my noobs

 

edit2: now im reminiscing that very same day vs renik my scout bikers killed a ten man dev squad before surrounding and rapidfiring at marneus calgar, killing him in one round of shooting

[Captain Idaho]

Well many of the points raised have been addressed here. I'll throw my hat into the ring and say if your army doesn't want a Landraider (theme, target saturation - whatever) then Honour Guard really shine as a decent assault unit for cheap(ish - Marines after all).

 

It also does matter also just what sort of list you take. I don't load out on infantry smashing wargear in my army even though it's free, instead I get the higher quality gear for my Tacticals and vehicles for cheap (Lascannons and Plasma Cannons are so cheap in Tactical squads), with my Honour Guard fulfilling Infantry killing duties supported by plasma and bolters etc.

 

However, you can go the other way and take the Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields to kill hard targets and do the damage to infantry with other units.

 

Anyway, it's the transport options combined with killing potential of Honour Guard that I really enjoy which is why they stay in my lists.

 

I would like to point out as long as the Ancient and Champion are still standing in Honour Guard the unit can still do a lot damage. The Champion has WS5 so will often be hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s with a multitude of attacks thanks to the Banner. This is great, but when combined with an attached IC it is fearsome. In fact, many games I've just had the Champion and Chapter Master standing; going back to back with their Relic Blades and hacking down models!

 

Of course, this isn't ideal, but when a game gets to it's late stages and many units are mangled they still pack a punch.

 

i played alloyslayer at helix games in westbury at an ultra-meet, he had 5 tactical termies with lysander, i srrounded them with 3 scout squads (15 ccw souts and 10 bolter scouts) shot with pistols and charged.. not only did i win combat but after my turn all he had left was lysander surrounded by scouts, he died in the next turn.

 

Yeah his Lysander had a rotten time against my army too. The Honour Guard charged him and his Command Squad, wiping out the unit and killing him the turn after for minimal losses. Just highlights the point that Terminators are for killing hard targets and Honour Guard for everything else and hard stuff with equal or lower initiative.

[DarkGuard]

Can I just say that I never said that going last was an advantage. I simply said that the fact that Honour Guard have grenades and that Hammernators don't means nothing as Hammernators are always striking at I1. Of course striking at I1 is bad, it means you're less likely to fight back with your full complement of attacks, and as I mentioned earlier I've taken advantage of that fact with my own Honour Guard, using Null Zone to great effect and wiping out entire squads of Hammernators before they can strike back.