Marine Armies Prior to the Second Founding

[Doghouse]

Been getting a lot of PMs regarding advice on this subject of late so thought it might help if I chucked this up in here to assist people in making their own armies. These are just my own thoughts on the subject and so aren't really right or wrong. :D

 

Squad Organisation

 

One of the most over looked aspects of making a pre-Heresy or Heresy army is the organisation of squads and how they function in terms of the structure of the company.

 

Obviously each Legion is going to be organised slightly different given their sheer size and inclusion of traditions of their new home worlds or nature of the role of their primarch but the bit that I'm interested in is how squads are organised within the company.

 

Going back to a time before the Heresy novels Andy Chambers wrote an article in White Dwarf at the time of the release of the Fourth edition chaos codex that basically tried to use the Heresy era theme to explain how the chaos marines differed from the modern chapters. One of the major changes that came about because of this was the idea that not only of certain weapons not being around at the time of the great crusade such as man portable multi-meltas and the likes of speeders but the inclusion of twenty man squads to give the impression of a different organisation.

 

To me this makes a lot of sense and goes some way to re-enforcing the logic behind the Codex structure that is adopted with the second founding.

 

With the introduction of the Heresy artwork books the story of the Heresy had a little bit of a shake up with the briefest of introductions with the idea of platoons which to me seems to re-enforce the idea of a different squad organisation.

 

With the growth of the pre-heresy following in terms of armies dotting up here and there and the release of the FW marines pre-heresy gaming is finally on it's way to fruition as a viable way of playing forty kay but the main problem is a lack of an "official" codex.

As many have shown with their endeavors to make an army the main way around this is the use of the modern marine codex and it's variants including the chaos codex.

 

 

So What Codex Do I Use?

 

The truth of the matter is that there is no wrong way of choosing a codex. Everyone is going to have an opinion on this but given the sheer size of the Legions and the number of Grand Companies (sometimes Legion specifically named) and companies there are no hard and fast rules. The idea that is currently floating around is that the Grand Companies were divided into Companies of between 100 - 300 marines and this is a great starting point for making your army. Whilst there is talk of Forge World taking up the mantle of the Heresy at some point in the distant future there are a number of options available based on this idea.

 

The best way I feel is to base your choice of codex on your own company, whilst there are prevalent themes to each Legion there is nothing to say that you can't create a specialised company that reflects how you want to theme your choice of Legion company.

In terms of codex this opens things up a little, so for example say you wanted to do a terminator company you have the Space Wolves codex or the Dark Angels codex to use as a starting point. Obviously you don't want the likes of the Imperial Fists running around on giant wolves but by omitting certain units from your chosen codex you can tailor the force to suit your vision of the company. Another good example is the Blood Angels codex which allows you to field armoured and jump companies and the Tyrant's Legion is another good source for creating a mixed Expeditionary force or Army, adventurers and Marines.

 

One of the key points of creating a pre-heresy theme in terms of vehicles is to take a good look at what is generally accepted as being post-heresy and not including them in your force. Things like the Predator Annihilator, Land Raider Crusader or Razor backs are all good examples of this, but at the end of the day this is entirely up to you and how far that you want to take the whole pre-heresy theme. Obviously things get a little clearer with the heresy era and you gain access to more stuff.

There are other things that are currently being re-written with heresy series of books but at the end of the day untill some sort of official IA campaign books are released this is entirely up to you as to what you include. You could argue for or against certain vehicles or weapons being used but at the end of the day it's your army.

 

Squad sizes can be altered with a bit of imagination to reflect the concept of larger squads. Firstly you can use the Chaos codex which allows you to create a non-codex squad with an upper limit as to the number of marines you can include and secondly there is the simple use of unit markings.

Squad heraldry is something that I'm hoping the likes of A D-B are going to pick up on with the later books but you can give the impression of much larger "squads" by painting a couple of Tactical squads with the same squad heraldry. They remain two separate units in terms of actual game play but in background material terms gives the impression of a much more unwieldy force over the likes of the more precise second founding codex chapters.

As yet there is no set squad heraldry for units so you don't have to stick to the codex markings like the arrow for tactical squads, etc and can come up with something of your own design if need be. Alpha Legion are perfect for this and if you can get hold of it there are several examples in the original Space Marine epic rule book.

 

There are also little tricks that allow you to play around a bit with themed units, for example by taking Sicarus you can give one of your units the infiltrate ability, slap a large back pack on them and you have Recon marines from the Heresy artwork books. Basically just play around with the special rules of characters to get the feel that you want for your models or use them as a means to include unique units.

 

Armour Marks

 

Generally speaking the most used armour during the Great Crusade is the Mk II with the Mk III being introduced as a sort of breaching or ship boarding variant at some point prior to the mighty terminator armour.

During the latter days of the crusade (although there seems to be no fixed point as yet) the Mk IV was brought into service just before the Heresy kicked off.

So if you are going for a pre-heresy themed army these are your best bets.

The Mk V is came into being as a result of the Heresy due to the complex nature of the Mk IV mainly as a stop gap with the MkVI and Mk VII coming into service during the final months of the campaign.

 

If you want to go the whole hog with your army and make them as accurate as is currently possible you can then think of it in historical terms so you have Early Crusade, Late Crusade and Heresy Era which should give you a starting point for the theme of your force.

 

Like I say none of this is set in stone but you may find it of some use when trying to figure out your own theme for your army.

[Grotsmasha]

Nicely put, and very helpful, it'd be my vote to have this stickied here, as these sorts of armies become more and more popular.

 

EDIT: And remember, yours is NOT the missing II or XI Legion........and have fun.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[TennisBall]

In regards to mk7 and the Heresy, it's a bit of a no go. Reading the fluff on lexicanum suggests that the suits were first produced on Mars around the time of the Siege of Terra. Mars was just able to ship the suits to Terra before Horus blockaded the planet. That would mean that the Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists would have had them at the siege but the rest of the legions would only have them for the follow up battles of the Scouring. The traitors wouldn't get them at all.

I don't actually like that fluff as it makes mk6 'corvus' armour a bit of waste of time if it only existed during the later part of the heresy before being replaced with mk7. I'm wondering if that last shipment sent from Mars shouldn't have been mk6 with mk7 not being developed until well after the heresy. Either way mk7 shouldn't be used.

 

Unit wise, a squad should be around 10 (8-12) as that is what most militaries use today and the trend is smaller tactical units based on fire teams rather than hordes. I would think the larger sizes of the chaos squads in game are to represent them fielding more Imperial Guard sized formations because of the original legions that turned to chaos. They fight altogether to maximize their strength because they don't have to spread themselves over an entire empire like 40k space marines do. The lack of weapons from the regular marines is just to show that they are different, after 10,000 years I'm sure they could have worked out how to use land speeders and captured multi-meltas.

 

Structure wise the Ultramarines would be much like codex marines and I'd think that the Space Wolves legion squads would fight like the chapter does.

I would think that many of the "companies" of the other legions would be closer to the reserve companies of the codex marines with them combining their assault troops into one large group and the same for their support weapons. Of course then there are companies like the Luna Wolves 10th company lead by Loken who had its own terminator squad. Whether all companies had this or the 10th only had it because Loken was on the Mournival is anyone's guess.

[Vodunius]

I don't actually like that fluff as it makes mk6 'corvus' armour a bit of waste of time if it only existed during the later part of the heresy before being replaced with mk7.

 

The official fluff from WD129 was that Mk7 never truly replaced Mk6 - many chapters didn't feel it was worth upgrading* to Mk7 so continue to use Mk6 (the same article mentioned that since the Heresy the Astartes have mostly taken over production of their own equipment, this is generally interpreted to mean Mk6 remains in production with those chapters).

 

* having a bullet-trap faceplate instead of one designed to deflect incoming shots is presumably a major part of that, tho Imperial Armour 10 also mentions that Mk7 lacks the more advanced sensors of the Mk4 & 6.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of these new-fangled 20-man squads, there was no evidence of them prior to 3rd edition, EPIC had 40-strong Tactical detachments and 20-strong Assault & Devastator detachments, but it still has those post-heresy (tho modern loyal Tactical detachments have been dropped to 30 men).

 

EDIT: And remember, yours is NOT the missing II or XI Legion........and have fun.

Except that there's a Dan Abnett podcast confirming that those were left blank for the fans to fill in.. (something a lot of fans had believed ever since 2nd edition came out)

[Grotsmasha]

I don't actually like that fluff as it makes mk6 'corvus' armour a bit of waste of time if it only existed during the later part of the heresy before being replaced with mk7.

 

The official fluff from WD129 was that Mk7 never truly replaced Mk6 - many chapters didn't feel it was worth upgrading* to Mk7 so continue to use Mk6 (the same article mentioned that since the Heresy the Astartes have mostly taken over production of their own equipment, this is generally interpreted to mean Mk6 remains in production with those chapters).

 

* having a bullet-trap faceplate instead of one designed to deflect incoming shots is presumably a major part of that, tho Imperial Armour 10 also mentions that Mk7 lacks the more advanced sensors of the Mk4 & 6.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of these new-fangled 20-man squads, there was no evidence of them prior to 3rd edition, EPIC had 40-strong Tactical detachments and 20-strong Assault & Devastator detachments, but it still has those post-heresy (tho modern loyal Tactical detachments have been dropped to 30 men).

 

EDIT: And remember, yours is NOT the missing II or XI Legion........and have fun.

Except that there's a Dan Abnett podcast confirming that those were left blank for the fans to fill in.. (something a lot of fans had believed ever since 2nd edition came out)

 

This maybe, but the DIY guide in the B&C's own Librarium states this as a no-no. Having said that, if someone were to make said claim with some sweet fluff, I'm not gunna rain on their parade, and I'll try offer friendly c&c.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

That's more because it tends to develop as an unnecessary addition, as well as being done really badly.

[Octavulg]

It's also an intrusive detail to fill in - if your guys are Legion II, nobody else's are. There's an infinite possibility for chapters. There's two for lost legions. Plus, y'know. The records were deleted. So how do you know your guys are Legion II in any case? :rolleyes:

 

It's the difference between "one of the greatest swordsmen" and "the greatest swordsman". One's possible, and indeed expected. The other is intrusive and grating.

[Doghouse]

I disagree with that mainly because the original intent of the two Legions was to allow fans to create their own Legions. It's the same as any fan based DIY chapter really because you aren't staking claim to an official part of the back ground material, so personally I feel they are both fair game. Whether people accept your interpretation however is another matter.

 

As for the Mk VI armour I think that they are altering the background material slightly in that regard at BL because I seem to remember Garro wearing corvus armour in Legion of One.

 

I do quite like the idea of larger twenty man squads though because it makes the swap over to codex chapter organisation a little more plausible as a restructuring of the old Legions rather than lets just divide the men into thousand strong chapters.

 

But as I said before it is one of the each to their own with any pre-heresy space marine army.

[Octavulg]

I disagree with that mainly because the original intent of the two Legions was to allow fans to create their own Legions. It's the same as any fan based DIY chapter really because you aren't staking claim to an official part of the back ground material, so personally I feel they are both fair game. Whether people accept your interpretation however is another matter.

 

While that may have been the intent, just because GW intended people to do it doesn't mean people will do it, that people should do it, or that it's a good idea to do it. I mean, they intend people to buy their products at full price - that doesn't make it a good idea. :P

 

The difference, IMO, is that there are several hundred Space Marine chapters unaccounted for. There are two legions. Filling in a DIY chapter leaves other people room for creativity and for their ideas to co-exist alongside yours. Filling in the lost legions doesn't. Charging ahead and doing it anyway suggests a certain lack of consideration.

 

That, and I like the speculation a lot more than I like most people's solutions. ;)

 

On a more general note: honestly, the only things you can't get away with in a pre-heresy army are Razorbacks, Predator Annihilators, some Land Raider variants, and Mk7&8 Armor. Pretty much everything else has been available to heresy-era armies at some point in the background (or can be logically deduced to exist).

[Arkangilos]

There is always the, "It is rumored that tehy are a lost company from the II legion" suggestion? That way it is just a rumor, and not fact :P

[TennisBall]

There is always the, "It is rumored that tehy are a lost company from the II legion" suggestion? That way it is just a rumor, and not fact :P

That can now have added that they're a second founding chapter of Ultramarines who just happen to have gene seed that doesn't quite match up with the rest of the boys in blue. ;)

[TennisBall]

I don't actually like that fluff as it makes mk6 'corvus' armour a bit of waste of time if it only existed during the later part of the heresy before being replaced with mk7.

 

The official fluff from WD129 was that Mk7 never truly replaced Mk6 -

Thanks, is this online somewhere to read, even in paraphrased form?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

There is always the, "It is rumored that tehy are a lost company from the II legion" suggestion? That way it is just a rumor, and not fact :P

That can now have added that they're a second founding chapter of Ultramarines who just happen to have gene seed that doesn't quite match up with the rest of the boys in blue. ;)

 

I feel like I say this in every third thread...

 

A D-B himself said that it was just supposed to be the rumor-mongering and hate-filled insults of a legion that just had its greatest achievement annihilated, and was in no way meant to be taken seriously.

 

EDIT: Sorry, wrong its.

[Arkangilos]

There is always the, "It is rumored that tehy are a lost company from the II legion" suggestion? That way it is just a rumor, and not fact :P

That can now have added that they're a second founding chapter of Ultramarines who just happen to have gene seed that doesn't quite match up with the rest of the boys in blue. :)

 

I feel like I say this in every third thread...

 

A D-B himself said that it was just supposed to be the rumor-mongering and hate-filled insults of a legion that just had it's greatest achievement annihilated, and was in no way meant to be taken seriously.

 

Stole my words :D

[Marshal Rohr]

I'd like to think the old Legions were organized along more modern lines. You have Infantry companies, Mechanized Infantry companies, armored companies, etc.

 

I always wanted to build a pre-heresy IF army, modeled after a Stryker Company.

 

1 Command Rhino with improved weapons system (Razorback counts as)

2 'Mortar' Carrier Whirlwinds

2 Vindicator MGS's

4 Squads in Rhinos

Support Vehicles

etc.

 

Just something cool and organizational different. RoE makes it seem like the BC organization was revolutionary and ground breaking as were the 'strike force' tactics employed.

[Doghouse]

I think there really needs to be some distinction between the Legions and Chapters in both organisation and tactics otherwise it kind of makes the idea of the restructuring a little redundant, it becomes more of a case yeah we basically do what we did before but in single Chapters/Grand Companies.

 

The Chapter seems to stem from the Spear Tip ideal of the small rapid strike force and that some sort of distinction where they can say this is how the Legions operated with support from the Army and adeptus mechanicus elements on a much larger scale and this is how Guilliman changed things to ten man squads, battle companies, chapter of one thousand marines, etc.

[Pulse]

The Chapter seems to stem from the Spear Tip ideal of the small rapid strike force and that some sort of distinction where they can say this is how the Legions operated with support from the Army and adeptus mechanicus elements on a much larger scale and this is how Guilliman changed things to ten man squads, battle companies, chapter of one thousand marines, etc.

Indeed, the Legions with admech and army support seemed to swamp a target with force smashing said target utterly, while a chapter is a strike force plain and simple, and has to be precise and direct to cause maximum damage in a short time.

 

I just find it a shame that most chapters in the fluff really don't consider themselves to be a rapid strike force, but rather end up being almost like a mini Legion in tactics.