A Massive DE Problem with DOA

[Red Horizon]

I just played vs a guy's adepticon 1250 half of his team's list and got absolutely creamed.

 

I did make some major blunders that caused half my force to be obliterated on turn 2 without causing a single casualty back. But fortunately, it allowed me see what his army does to jumpers, and it scares the crap out of me.

 

With a bad memory and some drinks to drown out the slaughter, here's what i remember from his list:

 

vect,

2 squads of wyches in 2 raiders

1 venom

2 ravagers

6 reavers

 

I forget how he loaded everything out exactly, or if there was more.

 

And here's what i used:

 

Librarian with jump pack - 125

2x priests with JP

4x assault squads with 2x melta, PF and some hand flamers to bring it up to 1250.

 

 

 

The problem I ran into was that i couldn't figure out how to pop his transports without getting creamed by a counter assault, and I couldn't dilly dally around because he had enough firepower to completely wipe out a full squad + some each turn. Being able to move 12"+ on all his units and still shoot also left me in a sticky situation. Basically it seemed like he dominated moving, shooting AND assault.... :rolleyes:

 

Also, one of my squads broke and started running, so he started zipping more vehicles over to tank shock them into auto running some more. He did this twice after they already broke and ran them off the table from 2/3 up the board! I've never seen this before, and it was a nasty surprise.

 

Is there anything I can do?

[AbusePuppy]

First of all, remember that Wyches aren't actually all that strong in assault; body-for-body, you should be destroying them pretty badly with your Assault Marines, and if you get the charge it should be a real bloodbath. Remember how fragile they are when you hit their transports- with your Meltaguns, a 3+ on the damage table kills the vehicle (2+ if they went Flat Out). If they explode, that's a bunch of casualties on them (6+ armor save isn't very protective) and then a Pinning test, which you should always remember to have them take and a Morale test if they took enough wounds. In short, unlike Space Marines, being kicked out of their ride can be really dangerous for DE.

 

Vect is a huge investment at that points level and will be very tough to bring down; you don't have a particularly strong solution to him in your list other than maybe putting some Power Fist wounds on him and hoping he fails a save. 2++ is tough, but he doesn't have Eternal Warrior or Fearless, so if you can get a good hit in on him, he's dead, and if you can multicharge his squad and win the fight, you can also potentially tear him apart. I assume your Librarian has Sword/Shield for powers? If you're willing to specialize a little, Shield/Fear can be helpful, as you can send Vect (or another squad) running off the board with a reasonable chance of success.

 

Ravagers put out a ton of firepower but are very fragile; Reavers likewise. In both cases, dropping down near them and applying Meltagun fire will solve the problem nicely. Even Bolt Pistols will cut through the armor save of Reavers and wound them on a 4+, so get those shots in.

 

There's not really anything you can do about being Tank Shocked off the board, but with Ld9 you should generally pass the initial test, so it won't happen often.

 

Deployment is where your big advantage is going to come; you can DS in and he will have to be zooming around the board to try and get his cover save the turn you arrive. Aim for the Ravagers first, trying to keep keep out of Vect's reach if possible (though it often won't be.) Aim to use your superior movement to have all your ASM hit Vect + buddies at once and focus your non-Power Fist attacks on the squad so that you cause maximum casualties and win the fight.

[the jeske]

Is there anything I can do?

dont play DoA . dont play 1250games .

 

But to be more serious , you just saw the bad side of DoA lists . If the opposing army can spam transport and has enough meq killing power and you come in groups you are going to be wiped out , if he is also just as fast or faster then you it is a bigger problem.

 

only thing you can pray for is that you will drop withing 6" and that with the circle of 10 meq the melta dudes will be closer then that to his transports .

 

you also have to pray that he never goes second and/or puts everything in reserve because then he is faster then you with a greater range and you never catch him .

 

So in the end it comes this , either you play a mixed army or play a for the lolz DoA army and get tabled from time to time.

[Red Horizon]

It would have been a LITTLE easier if he had gone first, but the way it went down was I went first, and he reserved everything, forcing me to DOA with nothing of his on the table to shoot or go after. And I need to be able to deal with this, because it'll happen 50% of the time when opponents get the decision.

 

Little Edit: Goddamn, well then i guess a DoA army is just screwed in this case. LoL's it is.

[chewielight]

Just because you can deepstrike doesnt mean you should all the time. If you win first turn you can always give it up and then not attempt to seize. Bolter weapons can take down his rides so dont forget. With that many assault squads I would have reserved all my stuff and either deepstruck close to terrain then ran into it or I would have just moved on board. Against mech heavy lists I used bl power a couple of times and it was nice. Not always working but more often than not. I almost always take fear.rage and it works wonders. At that point level a dread in a pod is nice.

[Astorath the Grim]

First of all, remember that Wyches aren't actually all that strong in assault; body-for-body, you should be destroying them pretty badly with your Assault Marines, and if you get the charge it should be a real bloodbath.

 

 

Incorrect, I play DE as my other army, and I play a wych heavy list. More often then not they annihilate assault marines within two turns, a lot of the time without taking a single casualty. Wyches are not something a marine player should be expecting to destroy outright, they can easily take the marine's attacks and dish out plenty of wounds in return even when being charged as the wyches are going first regardless.

 

My advice with wyches, shoot them dead. Easiest way to get through them. If you expect to mow them down in assault your going to be saddly mistaken unless yer opponent can't roll a dice to save his life.

[Babel_Triumphant]

You could try some blood-talon furioso action. If it doesn't die immediately to shooting, it should kill anything in the charge without fear because of its heavy armor and the fact that as a walker it's hard to hit with grenades.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

More often then not they annihilate assault marines within two turns, a lot of the time without taking a single casualty.

 

:huh: Never seen that for the life of me. Nothing remotely close to that especially in the new addition.

 

 

 

The other thing to consider is trying to diversify and pull in some heavy fire power in one form or another.

[Red Horizon]

More often then not they annihilate assault marines within two turns, a lot of the time without taking a single casualty.

 

:huh: Never seen that for the life of me. Nothing remotely close to that especially in the new addition.

 

 

Well that's what happened to me. I didn't even get to swing back.

 

It was a quick on the fly list. I was hoping that 40+ marines with FNP at 1250 would be too much to handle, man was i wrong. The amount of AP2 firepower rocked my socks at range, then when combat happened, I got rocked just as hard.

 

Basically if i run into DE in a quick little pickup game, pure DOA is out the window now.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

More often then not they annihilate assault marines within two turns, a lot of the time without taking a single casualty.

 

:huh: Never seen that for the life of me. Nothing remotely close to that especially in the new addition.

 

 

Well that's what happened to me. I didn't even get to swing back.

 

 

Well I suppose Assuming 10 wyches, 2 Hydra gauntlets (I dont get why you would take these but the consensus is that they are the most offensive afaik), Hekatrix with Agoniser

 

37/1 Attacks (Assuming 2 6s on the Hydra Gauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/3 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 1/2 feel no pain 37/36 Just over 1 wound.

4/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1 Agonizer Kills

 

So 2 marines on average that is. (if you can call boxcars on hydra gauntlets average)

 

Even with Furious charge the combat doesnt get much better for the ladies.

37/1 Attacks (Assuming 2 6s on the hydragauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 1/2 feel no pain 37/24 ~1.5 wounds.

4/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1 Agonizer Kills

 

(2.5 on average)

 

So to summarize. You're really only looking at 2-4 marine kills on extremely good/bad rolls. They have enough attacks that it could kill a full squad of marines I agree. In fact I suspect there are probably plenty of people who might of seen this over since the book has been out a fair bit. But its not something you should really be expecting as consistent.

 

On a similar note 5 assault marines with a power fist (not an unreasonable assumption for stuff to be left at the end of wyches hitting you) should still kill closer to 2 wyches in return.

 

Edit: Clarity hopefully.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'd invest in one to two Stormravens. The missiles can outrange their skimmers' shooting. Destroy them at range then engage. And watch out for Vect as he has that grenade pack that beats Marines.

 

G

[Leonaides]

What I'm seeing - you picked a bad list, tried to use special rules that were wildly inappropriate/ineffective at this point, and by your own admission had som ebad generalship that cost you a large chunk of your army by turn 2. With all that, I'm not surprised that you got hammered into the floor. DE can be a relative walk in the park if you use your head. DoA is gogin to struggle, sure, but the whole point of DoA is that you are gogin to have to accept some coutner charging if you dont take Vanguard Vets. You absolutely have to aim within range for the meltaguns to pop his transports, and then you need something to be able to dive in there and hit the contents. Equally, you could have tried to out-wait him by using your DoA re-roll to avoid coming in so soon. With the re-roll for your reserves roll you have a 75% chance of getting a result favourable to you in turn 2. So you try and keep all (or as much as you can of) your stuff off the board till he's had his turn 2 and then you can at least get the drop on what he had to bring on in his turn.

 

Even if you can get a couple of untis out of their transports, a librarian with FotD is gold-dust vs DE - Ld6 or 7 if he's lucky isnt that good for taking tests all over the place - and remember that if you shoot at the unit - do your FotD ifrst, then if you cause enough wounds to make him take a Ld test through casualties he'll have to run a second time in the same phase, automatically - I got a wytch squad to fall back 20" in 1 turn with this, and the Haemonculus they were with...

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Equally, you could have tried to out-wait him by using your DoA re-roll to avoid coming in so soon. With the re-roll for your reserves roll you have a 75% chance of getting a result favourable to you in turn 2. So you try and keep all (or as much as you can of) your stuff off the board till he's had his turn 2 and then you can at least get the drop on what he had to bring on in his turn.

 

DOA only works on failed Reserve rolls.

[Astorath the Grim]

More often then not they annihilate assault marines within two turns, a lot of the time without taking a single casualty.

 

:( Never seen that for the life of me. Nothing remotely close to that especially in the new addition.

 

 

Well that's what happened to me. I didn't even get to swing back.

 

 

Well I suppose Assuming 10 wyches, 2 Hydra gauntlets (I dont get why you would take these but the consensus is that they are the most offensive afaik), Hekatrix with Agoniser

 

37/1 Attacks (Assuming 2 6s on the Hydra Gauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/3 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 1/2 feel no pain 37/36 Just over 1 wound.

4/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1 Agonizer Kills

 

So 2 marines on average that is. (if you can call boxcars on hydra gauntlets average)

 

Even with Furious charge the combat doesnt get much better for the ladies.

37/1 Attacks (Assuming 2 6s on the hydragauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 1/2 feel no pain 37/24 ~1.5 wounds.

4/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1 Agonizer Kills

 

(2.5 on average)

 

So to summarize. You're really only looking at 2-4 marine kills on extremely good/bad rolls. They have enough attacks that it could kill a full squad of marines I agree. In fact I suspect there are probably plenty of people who might of seen this over since the book has been out a fair bit. But its not something you should really be expecting as consistent.

 

On a similar note 5 assault marines with a power fist (not an unreasonable assumption for stuff to be left at the end of wyches hitting you) should still kill closer to 2 wyches in return.

 

Edit: Clarity hopefully.

 

Ok Bob, Mathhammer it out all day long is only going to show you what statistically SHOULD happen...not what is going to happen...Mathhammer is not GOD, it is not the end all be all....Fact of the matter is that wyches WILL kill anything they are set against with or without wych weapons (I haven't bothered to use any yet). A Blood bride with an agonizer is all I've needed to shift the balance in my favor. Maybe I'm just very good at rolling a 4+ save *shrugs* I dunno...my wyches have yet to loose combat to assault marines. Its the tac squads I fear more then anything else...the ladies have been boltered to death on several occasions.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Ok Bob, Mathhammer it out all day long is only going to show you what statistically SHOULD happen...not what is going to happen...Mathhammer is not GOD, it is not the end all be all....Fact of the matter is that wyches WILL kill anything they are set against with or without wych weapons (I haven't bothered to use any yet). A Blood bride with an agonizer is all I've needed to shift the balance in my favor. Maybe I'm just very good at rolling a 4+ save *shrugs* I dunno...my wyches have yet to loose combat to assault marines. Its the tac squads I fear more then anything else...the ladies have been boltered to death on several occasions.

 

 

Wow hold on there bud. Im not trying to call you a liar or say you're stupid so there is really no need to get so snippy with me :(. But the fact is Mathhammer IS a useful analysis tool. I've shown why it should not happen consistently (and I assure you this is a key skill to the game playing by feel and intuition is only developed having certain key events happen consistently. Much like a tennis player can practice against a wall.)

 

You'll also notice that I admitted fully that it can happen and that I expect it has happened a fair bit over the course of months since DE were released but based on my numbers AND my experience I didnt see it as a very likely event. I suspect that we have actually simply seen the two extremes.

 

Blood Brides are actually a fair bit different because of the increase in attacks, since Red Horizon referenced the list and the Wyches needed to be troops I went off that assumption. Just so you have it heres the numbers on a unit of Blood Brides with Furious Charge and since not all marine players are Blood angels we can assume no Feel no pain.

 

51/1 Attacks (Assuming 3 6s on the hydragauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 17/4 ~4.25 wounds.

5/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1.5 Agonizer Kills

 

This makes it 5-6 wounds which is most of a marine squad praticularly if it is shot up before fighting.

[Astorath the Grim]

Ok Bob, Mathhammer it out all day long is only going to show you what statistically SHOULD happen...not what is going to happen...Mathhammer is not GOD, it is not the end all be all....Fact of the matter is that wyches WILL kill anything they are set against with or without wych weapons (I haven't bothered to use any yet). A Blood bride with an agonizer is all I've needed to shift the balance in my favor. Maybe I'm just very good at rolling a 4+ save *shrugs* I dunno...my wyches have yet to loose combat to assault marines. Its the tac squads I fear more then anything else...the ladies have been boltered to death on several occasions.

 

 

Wow hold on there bud. Im not trying to call you a liar or say you're stupid so there is really no need to get so snippy with me :P. But the fact is Mathhammer IS a useful analysis tool. I've shown why it should not happen consistently (and I assure you this is a key skill to the game playing by feel and intuition is only developed having certain key events happen consistently. Much like a tennis player can practice against a wall.)

 

You'll also notice that I admitted fully that it can happen and that I expect it has happened a fair bit over the course of months since DE were released but based on my numbers AND my experience I didnt see it as a very likely event. I suspect that we have actually simply seen the two extremes.

 

Blood Brides are actually a fair bit different because of the increase in attacks, since Red Horizon referenced the list and the Wyches needed to be troops I went off that assumption. Just so you have it heres the numbers on a unit of Blood Brides with Furious Charge and since not all marine players are Blood angels we can assume no Feel no pain.

 

51/1 Attacks (Assuming 3 6s on the hydragauntlets) 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/3 fail marine saves 17/4 ~4.25 wounds.

5/1 attack 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1.5 Agonizer Kills

 

This makes it 5-6 wounds which is most of a marine squad praticularly if it is shot up before fighting.

 

 

Math hammer is just unreliable in my opinion, for the simple fact that dice are random, math is not. If I came across as snippy I apologize, merely tired of people making mathhammer sound like the end all be all and relying only on its absolutes in their judgements.

 

I didn't mean a blood bride as in the elite choice, I meant the blood bride as in the wych squad leader. Feel no pain can alter the combat a great deal, however the BA players, other then myself, have yet to realize that the fnp bubble cannot always be maintained if yer chasing down DE...personally I attach a sang priest to every assault squad so I don't have to worry about it.

 

Perhaps its just my luck with the dice as far as wyches are concerned, I dunno. The dice I use are a set of dice that allowed a 150 pt unit of daemonettes in the 4th ed chaos dex to wipe out over 900 pts of eldar before finally dying. Hehe they just would not die

[Brother_Byhlli]

Ok Bob, Mathhammer it out all day long is only going to show you what statistically SHOULD happen...not what is going to happen...Mathhammer is not GOD, it is not the end all be all....Fact of the matter is that wyches WILL kill anything they are set against with or without wych weapons (I haven't bothered to use any yet). A Blood bride with an agonizer is all I've needed to shift the balance in my favor. Maybe I'm just very good at rolling a 4+ save *shrugs* I dunno...my wyches have yet to loose combat to assault marines. Its the tac squads I fear more then anything else...the ladies have been boltered to death on several occasions.

 

Can I please make the point that nobody is "good" at rolling 4+ saves. It's random. It's chance. On a D6, the chances of you rolling a 4+ are exactly 50%. If you don't believe me, sit down, roll a D6 1,000 times, record the results and see how many 4+ you get - and bear in mind that your rolling a stupidly small number of dice in this test.

 

I don't think you understand how statistics work. I don't know Dark Eldar nearly well enough to comment on this particular scenario, but I have a feeling there are probably some special rules involved that make it more or less likely for the Wyches to kill the Assault Squad - power weapons, invulnerable saves or whatever.

 

The point of mathhammer is that while it doesn't tell you what is definitely going to happen it can tell you what is most likely to happen. Some people with a bad understanding of probability and statistics think that mathhammer will tell you what will happen, but I like to think that most people use it as a guide. For example, I'm sure that it's possible for a ten-man Assault Squad to charge a unit of nine Genestealers with a Broodlord and win combat, but I also know that statistically it's not likely to happen. The Genestealers alone will statistically kill five Space Marines (27 attacks; 18 hits; 9 wounds of which 6 have armour saves and 3 are rending; 2 failed armour saves plus the 3 rending attacks = 5 dead Space Marines). The Broodlord is causing a little under one death, for a total of about six. The Assault Squad (assuming a power fist Sergeant) will then statistically cause roughly four wounds, of which one or two will be absorbed by the Broodlord. Space Marines lose combat by two. But, this is only mathhammer. It could go differently. The point of mathhammer is that it gives you an understanding of when a combat or tactic or whatever is likely to go in your favour.

 

If mathhammer takes everything into account and genuinely says that Assault Squads will beat Wyches in combat, then regardless of whether I'd lost a few combats against Wyches during games I would still throw my Assault Squads into combat with them with near wild and reckless abandon. The reason? Because I know how statistics work and I understand that if I run this combat scenario a thousand times, there's a damn good chance that more often than not, I'll have come out victorious.

 

As it happens, from the numbers that BobMakenzie used, it looks far more likely that the combat is going to be tied than that there will be an out-and-out winner. I'd expect that combat to run on for maybe two or three combat phases, by which point the Wyches ability to strike first means they'll gradually wear down the Assault Squad. As I said earlier, I'm not commenting particularly on the scenario that you're discussing, because I have no experience of Dark Eldar and I don't know what their stats and gear are like. But I want to make the point that mathhammer is nothing like as useless as you seem to make it out to be.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Math hammer is just unreliable in my opinion, for the simple fact that dice are random, math is not. If I came across as snippy I apologize, merely tired of people making mathhammer sound like the end all be all and relying only on its absolutes in their judgements.

 

Anyone who believes that mathhammer will tell them absolutely what is going to happen in a game is an idiot. But by the same standards, anyone who absolutely refuses to acknowledge the simple fact that our entire game is built around statistics and probability is missing a massive trick.

 

Without using actual maths, the only way you can get "a feel" for how things are going to play out, as BobMakenzie said already, is by running scenarios repeatedly until you get an idea of what's likely to happen. Mathhammer does that exact thing, precisely infinite times (which is probably more times than you've put Wyches into combat with Assault Squads! :P ) and tells you what the average outcome has been. It doesn't tell you what the outcome of this specific encounter will be, but it tells you what the average results will tend towards as you increase the number of samples you use in the experiment. And it takes a few seconds to do, which is another benefit it has over rolling the actual dice over the actual models infinite times. That's gonna take a lot of days of dice-rolling!

 

:P

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Math hammer is just unreliable in my opinion, for the simple fact that dice are random, math is not. If I came across as snippy I apologize, merely tired of people making mathhammer sound like the end all be all and relying only on its absolutes in their judgements.

 

I didn't mean a blood bride as in the elite choice, I meant the blood bride as in the wych squad leader. Feel no pain can alter the combat a great deal, however the BA players, other then myself, have yet to realize that the fnp bubble cannot always be maintained if yer chasing down DE...personally I attach a sang priest to every assault squad so I don't have to worry about it.

 

Perhaps its just my luck with the dice as far as wyches are concerned, I dunno. The dice I use are a set of dice that allowed a 150 pt unit of daemonettes in the 4th ed chaos dex to wipe out over 900 pts of eldar before finally dying. Hehe they just would not die

 

The whole point of math hammer is that its not though at least not in large numbers. I'll give you an example.

 

This weekend at 'ard Boyz I faced off against a player with a 10 paladin deathstar. With an all Jumper/Dev list I had little in the way of options for dealing with this unit. Due to terrain I coudlnt get very good Line of Sight on him and I wasnt about to outshoot my opponent. I decided with my experience that the best option was to hop hop hop along with 2 10 man RAS, 2 8 man VAS, Dante and 2 Priests and Ambush the Death Star with nearly 40 bodies. I posited that the Deathstar could at best kill one squad and with careful assaults I could garuntee at least priest would survive to make my assault hit hard with a careful placement. On the way in I used LOS blocking terrain that so hampered me to simultaneously set up the assault and minimize my casualties. I figured I wasnt surely going to win the assault but I knew I would give him one heck of a pounding.

 

So I hop hop hop along and he gets his one shooting phase to pound me....I lost 3 marines only because he could only shoot me with 1 squad. "SWEET!" I thought. That was alot better then I expected and it would end well for me I figured. Alas on my leadership I box carred about 4" from the board edge monumental swearing ensued for a moment before I promptly realized that Corbulo's Reroll could save me.

 

I promptly Box carred again...

 

So I was dieing a little on the inside. I made my jumps up and got my charge ready because I wasnt about to win an extended fight. heck I still had a ton of marines I figured I could hold him off for a turn and give him a bloody enough nose to keep me in the game. I could use my RAS to melta open his Land raider and deal with its contents so that I could sweep back around to team up the Paladin remenants next turn.

 

I had 2 2" Charge ranges with my Vets and my RAS meltad a Land Raider open killing 4/8 paladins in the explosion they had a 4" charge.

 

I failed one vet squad and my Vet squad charges. I was promptly slaughtered.

 

 

What the heck is the importance of this story you ask? I knew mathhammer wise what should happen. But I also knew that there was a chance something else would happen. It doesnt mean my choice was wrong, it doesnt mean it was right. It was a tool and I used it and I am confident it was the right choice.

 

 

 

the upgrade character for normal wych squads are Hekatrix not blood brides AFAIK.

 

 

The daemonettes are also a good example in my mind.

 

They did that yes? But would you expect them to do that every time you play?

[Astorath the Grim]

It has its uses yes, it'll give you an idea of what a squad could do...like I said previously, I'm just tired of people making it out to be the end all be all. First thing anyone does in these discussions is math hammer something to death. It gets old, very quickly...I don't care what your math says should happen. Its not always what DOES happen.

 

After at least 15 games against blood angels my wyches have yet to loose combat against assault squads, regardless of fnp....my experience is more pertinent to me then all the math hammering you could do. Statistically wyches should not win against an assault squad with fnp, but they have for me.

[Brother_Byhlli]

The daemonettes are also a good example in my mind.

 

They did that yes? But would you expect them to do that every time you play?

 

This.

 

The totality of your experience with that unit tells you that if you field them, they'll slaughter 900 points of Eldar.

 

My mathhammer tells me that's not particularly likely.

 

Which do you trust?

[BOBMAKENZIE]

It has its uses yes, it'll give you an idea of what a squad could do...like I said previously, I'm just tired of people making it out to be the end all be all. First thing anyone does in these discussions is math hammer something to death. It gets old, very quickly...I don't care what your math says should happen. Its not always what DOES happen.

 

After at least 15 games against blood angels my wyches have yet to loose combat against assault squads, regardless of fnp....my experience is more pertinent to me then all the math hammering you could do. Statistically wyches should not win against an assault squad with fnp, but they have for me.

 

Is it not disingenuous to represent your experience which you admit shouldnt happen to another player as gospel?

 

 

 

I have a few questions for my own curiosity. How many marines are in the units you typically charge and beat? What is the load out for your wyches? What is the rest of your list like for example? And most importantly how many points do you play?

[JamesI]

Lets not turn this thread into yet another Mathhammer good, no mathhammer evil debate.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I have a few questions for my own curiosity. How many marines are in the units you typically charge and beat? What is the load out for your wyches?

 

I'm interested in this as well. I'd like to know the numbers involved in each unit; the weapons load-out involved in each unit and any special rules, such as Furious Charge or Feel No Pain. Also out of curiosity. I'd like to run the numbers myself and see what I come out with.

 

:)

 

Lets not turn this thread into yet another Mathhammer good, no mathhammer evil debate.

 

I've made my point and I don't have anything further to say on the issue, but I'm still curious to know what the set-up of his units is. :)

[Astorath the Grim]

Math hammer is just unreliable in my opinion, for the simple fact that dice are random, math is not. If I came across as snippy I apologize, merely tired of people making mathhammer sound like the end all be all and relying only on its absolutes in their judgements.

 

I didn't mean a blood bride as in the elite choice, I meant the blood bride as in the wych squad leader. Feel no pain can alter the combat a great deal, however the BA players, other then myself, have yet to realize that the fnp bubble cannot always be maintained if yer chasing down DE...personally I attach a sang priest to every assault squad so I don't have to worry about it.

 

Perhaps its just my luck with the dice as far as wyches are concerned, I dunno. The dice I use are a set of dice that allowed a 150 pt unit of daemonettes in the 4th ed chaos dex to wipe out over 900 pts of eldar before finally dying. Hehe they just would not die

 

The whole point of math hammer is that its not though at least not in large numbers. I'll give you an example.

 

This weekend at 'ard Boyz I faced off against a player with a 10 paladin deathstar. With an all Jumper/Dev list I had little in the way of options for dealing with this unit. Due to terrain I coudlnt get very good Line of Sight on him and I wasnt about to outshoot my opponent. I decided with my experience that the best option was to hop hop hop along with 2 10 man RAS, 2 8 man VAS, Dante and 2 Priests and Ambush the Death Star with nearly 40 bodies. I posited that the Deathstar could at best kill one squad and with careful assaults I could garuntee at least priest would survive to make my assault hit hard with a careful placement. On the way in I used LOS blocking terrain that so hampered me to simultaneously set up the assault and minimize my casualties. I figured I wasnt surely going to win the assault but I knew I would give him one heck of a pounding.

 

So I hop hop hop along and he gets his one shooting phase to pound me....I lost 3 marines only because he could only shoot me with 1 squad. "SWEET!" I thought. That was alot better then I expected and it would end well for me I figured. Alas on my leadership I box carred about 4" from the board edge monumental swearing ensued for a moment before I promptly realized that Corbulo's Reroll could save me.

 

I promptly Box carred again...

 

So I was dieing a little on the inside. I made my jumps up and got my charge ready because I wasnt about to win an extended fight. heck I still had a ton of marines I figured I could hold him off for a turn and give him a bloody enough nose to keep me in the game. I could use my RAS to melta open his Land raider and deal with its contents so that I could sweep back around to team up the Paladin remenants next turn.

 

I had 2 2" Charge ranges with my Vets and my RAS meltad a Land Raider open killing 4/8 paladins in the explosion they had a 4" charge.

 

I failed one vet squad and my Vet squad charges. I was promptly slaughtered.

 

 

What the heck is the importance of this story you ask? I knew mathhammer wise what should happen. But I also knew that there was a chance something else would happen. It doesnt mean my choice was wrong, it doesnt mean it was right. It was a tool and I used it and I am confident it was the right choice.

 

 

 

the upgrade character for normal wych squads are Hekatrix not blood brides AFAIK.

 

 

The daemonettes are also a good example in my mind.

 

They did that yes? But would you expect them to do that every time you play?

 

And if you look in the DE dex, you'll find that the elite 'bloodbrides' full name is Hekatrix bloodbrides...and their stats are exactly the same as the upgrade...so if you put 2 and 2 together...

 

Of course I don't expect that to happen every game, however in the years that I played that army they never failed to make back waay more then their points

 

Once again my point is that too many people on these forums seem to think it is the end all be all of everything and take nothing into account other then the math hammer...THAT is my only point